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 Ravagers, what to do with them now?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 00:58

Hello, Im new here, love the site already.

Some time ago I got Heavy into DE been playing them sense the start of 6th (Right when the new Nids dex came out, it was so underwhelming I went to my 2nd love for good).

Now that the meta is shifting in DE, What will we do with all of out Ravagers? What are your thoughts?

I feel I may not need them anymore and with the 20pt increase along with Might be Snap Fire 1 DL, it doesnt seem to bring for it.


Im thinking With our new Strong turn 2 Alpha striking, Fliers, Scourges, DS'ing Archon+court, venoms+Blasterborns etc.. having 2-3 Talos + Cronos on the table will be useful. Amazing Staying power, good CC and a nice late game unit.
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:05

I'm going to try mine out with disintegrators. It will keep its cost down and has a high volume of shots if I'm forced to jink. I'm going to try out fast attack options as my primary anti-tank.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:13

@Trystis wrote:
I'm going to try mine out with disintegrators. It will keep its cost down and has a high volume of shots if I'm forced to jink. I'm going to try out fast attack options as my primary anti-tank.

I had the same idea aswell let me know how it goes. I feel the FA is very important for us now.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:18

Ravagers are now correctly priced. They have been under priced for more than a decade! They can still move 6 and shoot everything. That said, my lists will not simply be auto include 3 going forward as we now have more options!

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:23

Yeah.. I have a good feeling they will just be shelved, Ive played with them enough, time to pull out some Scourges and fliers for the 1st time Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 02:26

I still need to decide what to do with the new dex and my builds.

That said, I will note that back in the day with the OG dex, I ran Ravagers with 6" movement and 3 lance shots or 12" movement and 1 lance shot. They still did their job just fine. The only difference is, really, in how you deploy them and you'll have to start thinking ahead a bit more now.

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Dielema
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 02:59

Can't ravagers still move 12, shoot two shots at full BS and snap shot one?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 03:17

Yes.

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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 04:22

@Trystis wrote:
I'm going to try mine out with disintegrators. It will keep its cost down and has a high volume of shots if I'm forced to jink. I'm going to try out fast attack options as my primary anti-tank.

I'm going to do exactly this.
Seems like the sensible thing to do
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 05:09

I agree. Ravagers have moved from anti tank to anti infantry. Honestly I think the switch from using hay wyches to scourges just feels like its a good trade. I hated the idea of using a wyche unit for tank killing as it felt like a one shot weapon anyway and true born were quite expensive and too easy to shut down.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 05:20

Ravagers will still be fine. A 20 pt increase didn't change their value that much and I jink with mine anyway instead of FF. No plans to shelf them here although I'll be considering adding in some scourges like everyone else.

The other thing to consider is how ravagers stack up in the 7th edition scheme that gw is building. Everything is getting re adjusted across the spectrum. The new ravager is still a great buy in comparison to the latest heavy support units we've seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 05:40

Ravagers are different. I think a hybrid ravager will be the key, 2 lances and one dissy (for total of 5 shots) or 2 dissies and one lance for a total of 7 shots. I agree that FA will be our main AT at the moment, that and something with a WWP like wraithguard.

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 09:47

I think I will buy them as cheap as possible with 3 Dissies.
DS them right behind light vehicules for AV10 glancing shots without cover.
Stats are: 9 shots, 6 hits, 2 glancing (5+)  ... or maybe a pen on a 6+ (dreeeaaam!)

The same stats with 3 lances would be: 3 shots, 2 hits, (2 pen) or (2 glance) or (1 pen + 1 glance) or nothing on 1's..

In case of jink-snapshots: 9 shots are better than 3.

Additionnally, due to the difficulty to blow up a vehicule in one shot with AP2 (6+ on the table), I'm not sure a Ravager w/ 3 dark lances are still the best option against heavy/superheavy tanks. The answer to this problem is in the FA slot.

Ravager with 3 dissies also offer the opportunity to deal with nasty Broadsides, Crisis and other 2+ annoying heavy infantry, which is its initial purpose.

Light Vehicule / Heavy Infantry hunter.

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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 10:46

@Thor665 wrote:
I still need to decide what to do with the new dex and my builds.

That said, I will note that back in the day with the OG dex, I ran Ravagers with 6" movement and 3 lance shots or 12" movement and 1 lance shot. They still did their job just fine. The only difference is, really, in how you deploy them and you'll have to start thinking ahead a bit more now.

I remember those days as well, and you are right. I think they will still be fine if that's how someone wants to run them.

Personally I'm not changing their role because I think they're bad anti-tank, I just think I might be able to get better anti-tank elsewhere. Which will allow me to take one as pretty amazing anti-heavy infantry. Which I think has been a hole in my army for awhile.

I'm also thinking about a mixed load out. In the past I was totally against it, but now it seems like I might need a Swiss Army knife approach... It's hard to say until I get in some games and get a second squad of scourge.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 11:33

@Trystis wrote:
I'm going to try mine out with disintegrators. It will keep its cost down and has a high volume of shots if I'm forced to jink. I'm going to try out fast attack options as my primary anti-tank.

+1. In fact, I usually use cannon-ravagers rather than lance-ravagers. They can wipe out any types of enemy infantries.

@LSK wrote:
Additionnally, due to the difficulty to blow up a vehicule in one shot with AP2 (6+ on the table), I'm not sure a Ravager w/ 3 dark lances are still the best option against heavy/superheavy tanks. The answer to this problem is in the FA slot.

I have the same opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 12:32

I expect I'll bench my two triple lance ravagers but still use my dissie one. I'll try to keep my movement to 6" now to avoid snapshooting as best I can and use cover rather than jinking. 36" range should still make it easy to line up some good shooting lanes.

I think the triple lance version has just become too inefficient. You're paying 145 for 3 lance shots where even if you don't move it you only average one hull point (on 12+ AV) and are sitting on armor 11. I pay 140 with my chaos army for 3 las cannons (one twin-linked) and sitting on 13 armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 13:26

Yeah, some testing and scenario modelling is still required. But it certainly seems haywire scourges will be the new hotness. Are we still glad Razorwings got moved to Fast Attack? Sad

One other thing to note is the potential for an all-dissie Ravager to encourage an enemy unit to go to ground. 4-6 AP2 wounds should make many units, even (especially?) if already in 5+ cover, consider the extra cover save worthwhile.

Since it appears we lost all of our already limited pinning weapons (unless I am missing some on my first read through?), having some way to get enemy heads down could be important. Dissie Ravagers can probably do it cheaper than scythe/implosion void ravens!

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 15:30

I did some rolling to see the effectiveness of the Dissie Ravagers, and oh my lord, it actually does real damage. Like getting a lot of penetrating hits in addition to glances.

A couple of scourges + reavers i guess could handle Land Raiders. But generally the strategy works, but it has to be backed up with blasters or melta.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 00:15

@Massaen wrote:
Ravagers are now correctly priced. They have been under priced for more than a decade!

LOL. Ravagers were just about worth considering with the old codex, despite the lackluster effect of lances. With the new codex changes (lance) ravagers are completely overpriced garbage. Given that we can have an ObjSec serpent with superior movement, firepower and survivability for the same price as a lance ravager there really is no comparison.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 01:04

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Ravagers are now correctly priced. They have been under priced for more than a decade!

LOL. Ravagers were just about worth considering with the old codex, despite the lackluster effect of lances. With the new codex changes (lance) ravagers are completely overpriced garbage. Given that we can have an ObjSec serpent with superior movement, firepower and survivability for the same price as a lance ravager there really is no comparison.

No I dont even want to touch my 3 Lance Ravagers.. They will surly be shelved.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 02:19

So is the community's verdict here weighing towards dissie ravagers?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 02:34

I can see dissie ravagers taking a rise as AI with a base strength, would be good against low toughness armies, with a night shield and enhanced sails can do some nice work with jink, and 9 shots you get 1.5 hits with snap-shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 02:41

Though I feel we still need DL ravagers backing up Heat Lances/Haywires against Land Raiders.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 02:53

I still think that the 3DL ravage has a place - light AT duties (rhinos and the like) are still fodder for it.

Its more expensive but still worth while - I think 1 3Dl ravage will still end up in most of my lists

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 02:56

@Massaen wrote:
I still think that the 3DL ravage has a place - light AT duties (rhinos and the like) are still fodder for it.

Its more expensive but still worth while - I think 1 3Dl ravage will still end up in most of my lists

I might be just having one Dark Lance Ravager and one Disintegrator in my list: https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10070-1500-list-7e#111383
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