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 Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 12:16

I might as well start this off. The new codex hits this weekend and Scorpion has kindly answered a lot of our questions on its contents.

As such, I figured I'd set up a thread for members to lay down ideas they have about what will work under the new codex.

Please refrain from being overtly critical here - it's an ideas thread to bounce suggestions round members, so aside from pointing out any technical issues (like misinterpreted rules etc) I'd like it to stay constructive

Here's a few ideas to start us off:

Max reserves
Limit on-table units at the start of the game, maybe 2-3 Talos/Chronos in cover. Use either splinter cannons/haywire blasters etc to provide some threat and eliminate things like quad guns etc. Possibly also utilise Mandrakes to neutralise units such as pathfinders early on.

Some method of manipulating reserves (I'll be using a comms relay).

Remaining units deploy via deep strike, either via webway portal for things such as court of the archon with medusae, or heat lance scourges (you could take a blaster or twin blast pistol archon to boost their firepower and odds of taking down 4HP vehicles, the archon would also help them in any ensuing combat)


Specific unit ideas.
Reavers in units of 6 with cluster caltrops can go tank hunting, getting the 2 caltrop models into the rear armour of a tank shouldn't be impossible and their HoW hits could very well be enough to take it down in one go.

3 Talos accompanied by one Chronos (yes, a lot of points I know) will be a nightmare to shift, 12 wounds with toughness 7, 3+ armour, cover (possibly) and 4+FNP.


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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 13:07

Some options I quickly think of:

1) Anti Tank: several units of 5 scourges, for maximum haywire blasters.
Blasterborn seems to be slightly better than before, because the venom can now DS freely and jink doesn't affect passengers.
Ravagers will not be the reference for this job due to the loss of aerial assault.
But also due to 7th ed new damage table: Roll a 6+ for explosion is half the chances (5+) we had in 6th. Deleting hull points is far more reliable (hello crons!)

2) Sky control: Go with 7 flyers (3 Razor FA + 3 Void HS + 1 Hemlock Ally) - Ally with Autarch + Fortif Com Relay --> almost all your flyers arrive on turn 2 for full missile spam. The Hemlock combined with TGL, Animus Vitae, etc... could find a place of choice.
It costs a lot and it can be funny (competitive? I dunno...)

3) infiltrated Mandrakes, followed by WWP Succubus + Incubi right in front of them (in line), for flanking infantry/heavy infantry on multiple assault. Mandrakes have 4+ in the open (stealth + shrouded) and then are granted a 5+ cover by intervening model (incubi have 3+ armor to tank damage for the succubus if needed). So the Mandrakes get a 2+ cover save before charging.
Succubus + Incubi finish the job next turn.


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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 13:23

Tactics wise, at least for tournaments, even the new, improved units will not be that effective.

So, my ideas will be based on tournaments.

1. Mandrakes:
Leave them on the shelves. Yes, they got uber buffed, but like Achilles and Superman, they have a huge, glaring weakness. They only get cover saves. Tau, Wyverns and Waveserpents, all of which are abundant in tournament play negate any chance of using mandrakes effectively. They shoot, Drakes die. no save of any kind, and at toughness 3- they will die in droves. In other words, a great unit for fun play, but still useless in a tournament.

2. Wyches
I will just pass on this one.. the pain is still too fresh! Goodbye, once useful and worthy unit!

3. Incubi
Sigh. no chance for grenades in any way. This unit will not see the table in tournaments either.

4. Hellions.
Why? What possible reason would you take these as they are now?

5. Talos/ Chronos.
This unit has potential, but not in the way most people think. Visions of them gliding across the battlefield, leapfrogging each other to distribute wounds as they crush the foe before them in an unstoppable symphony of pain is deluded. The true value in this unit is to stick em in ruins, and use them (and allied waveserpents) to stay alive so you are not tabled before your deepstriking reserves arrive to lay the REAL pain down. Then, and only then, when grots, wraithguard and firedragons are running rampant through enemy lines can you bring up the talos. They wont be seen as an immediate threat, and the talos becomes a great mop up and surprise assault unit. Good luck moving 3 taloi off an objective!

6. Reavers.
Now this is a unit with some teeth. Sadly, it is only truly effective when coupled with: Eldar. Anyone surprised? Anyone? They too suffer from anti cover shots, but their speed, toughness and ability to hit and run make them not only viable, but even desirable. Ally in an autarch (for reserve buffs) with a good save, a good weapon and even a banshee mask, and watch this unit of hard hitting bikes become even more deadly. A soon to be favorite tactic will be to get as close to the enemy as quickly as possible to use the enemies OWN units as shields from incoming template weapons. Just be very sure that when you assault, the caltrops (mandatory include now) are front and center after 1 fleeb to absorb overwatch, because only the units in BTB on the charge inflict HOW hits.

7. Wracks
I will wait on the coven supplement, but I feel that this unit will be VERY good VERY soon

8. Grotesques
This unit is great now, but will be even better with "covens". In either a blind luck or very well thought out plan, grots will be more desireable in smaller (read 8 or less) units.

9. Ravager
Oh good god, why? You bastards!

10. Flyers:
Meh


In summary, a tournament Dark Eldar list will look like:

Allies:
Spiritseer
10 wraithguard
10 firedragons
wraithknight
2 waveserpents (empty)

DE:
Haem x 2 w/ portals
Troop choices in raiders w/ racks

There you go.

But, as always, this is my opinion, based on the info I have so far.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 13:39

I have been looking at a few lists. Most of them reserve lists.

So this is the first that hit me:

Archon

3x Grotesques

5x Warriors
5x Warriors

5x Scourges with 4x Haywire blasters
5x Scourges with 4x Haywire blasters
5x Scourges with 4x Haywire blasters
Razorwing with DL and Missils
Razorwing with DL and Missils
Razorwing with Dissies and Missils

Bomber with missils
Bomber with missils
Bomber with missils

Bastion with coms.

It will kill everything, and then crash and burn on whatevers left in comming turns.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 14:32

How you prevent getting tabled turn 1 with that list?

Neither the 2x5 Warriors nor the 3 Grotesques will survive reliably.
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 14:39

Bastion in corner and hide behind bastion and coms. Been done with necrons for 2 editions now Smile

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 15:32

I realised Sllyth have had shardcarbines. If this is still the case, they also benefit from a splinter rack in a Raider.

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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 17:22

@Darklight wrote:
Bastion in corner and hide behind bastion and coms. Been done with necrons for 2 editions now Smile

or Armor 14 Imperial Bunker with Comms Relay Wink



@Skulnbonz wrote:
It is said only DE can use WWP. I really wanted DS wraithguards without scattering, but this fits fluff more IMO.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 20:25

I think gunboats of raiders will still be viable. Supported by blasterborn or cannon born in venoms, sound familiar. That's going to be the meat and veg I think.

What gives the list some bite though, well scourges are going to be our anti tank now, no doubt. I think deepstriking them in with haywires, out of the fray but making use of the range to glance a vehicle to death. Reavers to annoy in the backfield while warriors and venoms mop up in a tide of splinter.

Talks or chronis to hide to allow reserves. Archon with incubi will still be fun, grot-bomb will also be great. Perhaps a medusa bomb.

I think there are a lot of options, lots of potential list builds. Maybe not super competitive but fun.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 02 2014, 21:30

I think that deepstriking is going to be the thing now. wwp deepstriking grot bombs and courts will be the units I use along with scourges. formation 5 in the supplement includes a unit made up of 1 chronos, a talos, and a heamy. If that heamy can take a WWP then you can no scatter deepstrike a unit of 2 monsterous creatures right into their face giving 4+ feel no pain to your grot and court bombs... nice..
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 09:18

Voidraven - equipped with night shields and missiles a viable option is now turn up, fire off all missiles, evade on a 3+ the return fire, fly off the board next turn and repeat.

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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 10:43

Making use of cover to boost vehicles survivability and preventing having to jink is going to be important. Once again cover will be our best friend.

If you can still take 3 haemocules, I would be tempted to give them each a web way portal and attach them to a squad of wyches. Dropping them into the back field out of site might be useful for causing panic. They wouldn't stand up to being shot at but with the no scatter deepstrike you could get them into decent cover and make use of the pfp and haemocules. If they came on say turn 3, and you have an archon with perhaps an animus that has a kill, then that turn they could be fairly resilient (potential for drugs as well). Then next turn, if all goes to plan you may have rage, there is a potential to straight up murder anything in range? What do people think as I don't want to confine my 40+ wyches to the shelve just yet? Same could be done with some grotesques in bigger point games?

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 11:00

I'm looking forward to the Ichor injector; S:U, AP- Fleshbane, ID on to wound of 6.
It's mounted on our smashing talos.

1-3 or more of these could be our Gargantuan-creature hunter, as poison only wounds on 6, but fleshbane on 2+, and smash gives ap2. Also, ID gives d3 wounds vs Gargantuans.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 11:04

@Grub wrote:
Making use of cover to boost vehicles survivability and preventing having to jink is going to be important. Once again cover will be our best friend.

If you can still take 3 haemocules, I would be tempted to give them each a web way portal and attach them to a squad of wyches. Dropping them into the back field out of site might be useful for causing panic. They wouldn't stand up to being shot at but with the no scatter deepstrike you could get them into decent cover and make use of the pfp and haemocules. If they came on say turn 3, and you have an archon with perhaps an animus that has a kill, then that turn they could be fairly resilient (potential for drugs as well). Then next turn, if all goes to plan you may have rage, there is a potential to straight up murder anything in range? What do people think as I don't want to confine my 40+ wyches to the shelve just yet? Same could be done with some grotesques in bigger point games?

Haemonculus aren't a 1-3 choice any more, but you could still take that many using two CADs.

The problem I see with deep striking them is that they're close. If you stick them in a raider and reserve it you actually give yourself an extra turn to ramp up PfP before they're likely to be shot at - for example:

If I deep strike, I've got to be within 18" to have any kind of hope of charging in the next turn. Which means I'll be in rapid fire range after the enemy movement phase.

If I reserve, then the turn I come on I've got a 3+ cover (assuming I take NS on the raider) and can go flat out. Next turn, my threat range is on average more like 18-20", and a maximum of 24", which means that the turn before I charge, I can be in the longer range band of most rapid fire weapons, thus halving the incoming fire.

In both instances though, the key to using wyches well will be twofold (in my opinion). First, timing, by making sure they only charge into combat when they're getting a boost from PfP. Second, threat management, by having units in place that are more immediately threatening to the enemy than the wych squad.

This second point occurred in my game last night, where two riptides intercepted my ironclad dreadnought that arrived by drop pod. It survived thanks to its tough armour, and i'd neutralised the main threat of the riptides by forcing them to use interceptor. As such, I could concentrate my first turn fire on other units, which caused his broadsides and warlord to flee from the table!

Marco - I don't think you can mix and match weapon effects like that - the AP2 is only used if the Talos attacks using its own strength, once you start using a specific melee weapon you have to use its AP value instead.

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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 14:06

Actually, since the Talos has the Smash rule (as a monstrous creature), all of its attacks are resolved as AP2, unless the weapon's AP is better. There's some shenanigans in the Chaos Marines codex with a Daemon Prince and one of their artifacts, IIRC.
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 14:07

Ah shame about the haemoculese but detachements could work. I completely get what you are saying with the raiders. But my plan would be to DS the wyches in as I said which will put them into a risky position. But perhaps with the right timing, you can minimise the risk by, for example turboing reavera nearby, a grotesque unit nearby popping out of a webway, the rest of your army ploughing up the sane flank. Force the opponent to have to spread his fire? Its my little brainstorm of a cheaper alternative to raiders and getting large squads close to the enemy. Pincer movement.


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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 15:28

I will try to steal objectives with wyches and see the face of my oponent lol
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 15:58

Something funny I've seen on 4chan (pictures of the codex): in a beastmaster unit you can take up to 12 models, any combination chosen between: BM, Khym, flocks and fiend.

It is also written "Any beastmaster may take items from the melee weapon list" ... list where you can buy power swords & agoniser.
so you can take 12 beastmasters without any beasts but all equiped with agoniser???


PS: I won't give the link to 4chan thread here, you can find it easily.

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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 16:06

I'll probably make use of the new formation, Placing the Archon (Most likely Agon + Shadowfield) with 9 sslyth, in a raider, continue with the gunboats I usually use with my warriors, Elites will consists of 2 units of mandrakes infiltrating, Fast Attack will most likely be 2 groups of reavers, 3 of Scourges. Possibly no heavy, Ravagers being taken over by Scourges, and flyer meta not that great here.
My goal would be similar to the Null Deployment tactics I used to do, the two mandrakes, and possibly a unit of scourges will work as the first models on board, scourges being far back with DL sniping any enemies, and the mandrakes disrupting the troops, this also would counter my friends Deathwing list pretty well, forcing him to use his deepstrike on either the mandrakes or the scourges.

All in all, looking fondly at the new codex, will make me use the court and reavers a lot more with the better defined roles, as well as introduce the mandrakes I have wanted to use. Flyers may make an appearance, and possibly a coven list. Will have to look at the Relics before I make any decision on those, like does the djinn blade always confer the attacks, or must I wield it. Huskblade+Soultrap may make an appearance, but not sure which would be better, both AP3, one requiring challenges, but can strike hard, the other stuck at a 4+.

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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 17:19

All I need to know is this: will my traditional force of Kabalite Warriors mounted in raiders and backed up by ravagers still do the trick?
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 17:36

@Braden Campbell wrote:
All I need to know is this: will my traditional force of Kabalite Warriors mounted in raiders and backed up by ravagers still do the trick?

Depends on the trick you are after, but they should be around the same powerlevel as last dex. Wariors are cheaper while Ravagers are more expencive.

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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 18:12

@Braden Campbell wrote:
All I need to know is this: will my traditional force of Kabalite Warriors mounted in raiders and backed up by ravagers still do the trick?

Yes, gunboats got a nice boost (splinter racks affect all splinter weapons, raiders can deepstrike, night shields means jink gives a 3+ cover save, enhanced sails give them ridiculous redeployment capacity).

Ravagers on the other hand got more expensive, lost arial assault and lost flicker fields, meaning they will be firing at BS1 if you want a save (so they will have to depend on terrain for cover saves).

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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 19:20

So... ravagers became more expensive while able to do less? Who thought that was a good change?
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 03 2014, 22:31

I'll probably be trying a large unit of Reavers with an allied Jetbike Farseer rolling on Telepathy, because invisible bikes with a 3 up cover save that can only be hit by snapshots or 6's in assault just sounds disgustingly good.

And then I can have 5 more units of Reavers running around shooting stuff.

Time to buy some Reavers!
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PostSubject: Re: Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex   Constructive(!) Tactics using the new codex I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 00:52

I personally look forward to deep striking nine Medusae with an Archon in a Raider, and melting whatever non-vehicle unit they look at. Plus, it's virtually unassaultable!
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THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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