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 Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 10:40

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Again the point is, why are we all so obsessed about sending a character to fight someone who most likely a 2+, and most likely a 3++ or 4++, with additional feel no pain, and eternal warrior? I thought we are dark eldar, and therefore do not fight fair. The old Archon w/ Huskblade had problems getting that first soul trap that enabled him to stomp. And by the time he did, the game was already won for sure.

Probably because we have NOTHING ELSE to stop this character from rampaging through everything (as he is as fast as our stuff too) as we cant even tarpit him properly. Thats where the AP2 Archon came into play who could hold his own or even get him killed (no fnp against huskblade despite of eternal warrior).
Now that stupid marine has a cheap shadowfield without drawbacks as he can use his normal armor in melee. We dont even get stupid power axes for Ap2.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 10:50

Uh turn 4 furious charge anyone, or 3 with a successful animus vitae coin toss. We can find other ways to kneecap that super marine. We can shoot him with Dark Lances, or Blasters, for example, after we've run through the vehicles. He will have to use his storm shield, and if he doesn't die he still has no effective means of retaliation. Or tie him up with wyches for a good part of the game whilst the rest of us plays for objectives (the wyches may die, but the combat may or may not have lasted for 2-3 turns), whilst the archon bullying other parts of the army. If he doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then that one time it goes through the invul, means he's toast. And you get kingmaker (if you have it), along with slay the warlord. You get at least 2 vps (66% chance) plus the one from slay the warlord.

Old DE codex was fine, strong, but its number one chief problem, was its susceptibility to abuse, or in other words, unhealthy. Nearly every netlist either had Baron or Duke. If it had Baron it certainly came with a fully loaded up beastpack, that took up half the map. Everyone then brought 3 ravagers, which was okay in the first place, and then to supplement, as many troop choices- 5 haywyches in a venom. If there was points to spare 3-4 blasterborn in a venom. This is a pretty strong list, don't get me wrong, but it was to the point where other choices... were crowded out.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 11:08

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Uh turn 4 furious charge anyone

Becaus assaulting start always at turn 4 for us. Game is nearly over at turn 4 and our melee is probably dead by now or badly mauled (even if they has a successful turn 2 and 3)

Quote :
We can shoot him with Dark Lances, or Blasters, for example, after we've run through the vehicles.

so by turn... 5?

Quote :
If he doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then that one time it goes through the invul, means he's toast.

S8 doesnt autokill a T5 character. If you think huaskblade archon, he doesnt need to roll his invul. His normal armor is better and inpenetrabe for us.

Quote :
Old DE codex was fine, strong, but its number one chief problem, was its susceptibility to abuse, or in other words, unhealthy. Nearly every netlist either had Baron or Duke.

So.. we get punished because Eldar used our characters? Good way to balance a codex. Lets crap on DE because Eldar are strong. When was the last time you saw a PURE DE army finishing top 5? In 5th ed?

Quote :
If it had Baron it certainly came with a fully loaded up beastpack, that took up half the map.

Nope. Baron + Beastpack does nothing too fancy. You have to Add a Seer for (save) rerolls to make that unit threatening. Again. Eldar.

Quote :
Everyone then brought 3 ravagers,

I wonder why when the rest of the Heavy support section was utter garbage (and still is)

Quote :
s many troop choices- 5 haywyches in a venom.

Somehow you need to deal with tanks and the new favorite GW pet the darn Knight. As every single vehicle got buffed, Dark Lances are nearly out of the game. Hell you need around 5 LAnce shots to strip a single hullpoint from any AV12+ vehicle (and thats not even taking a better cover save than 5+ into account). Thats 2 Ravagers per Hullpoint.

Quote :
but it was to the point where other choices... were crowded out.

They are still crowded out. Do you think that just because popular picks got nerfed suddenly unpopular pick which are even WORSE will shine?
Go talk to T3 Hellions. They die as soon as they see a single Imperial squad. No point reduction ever will get them useful.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 11:29

I wonder, can you have 3 Cronos in one unit?
If so does their PfP buff stack?
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 11:34

Yes it does.. to a miximum of 4+
And as they come with a built in 5+, 2 of them are wasted.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:01

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Uh turn 4 furious charge anyone

Becaus assaulting start always at turn 4 for us. Game is nearly over at turn 4 and our melee is probably dead by now or badly mauled (even if they has a successful turn 2 and 3)

Quote :
We can shoot him with Dark Lances, or Blasters, for example, after we've run through the vehicles.

so by turn... 5?

Quote :
If he doesn't have Eternal Warrior, then that one time it goes through the invul, means he's toast.

S8 doesnt autokill a T5 character. If you think huaskblade archon, he doesnt need to roll his invul. His normal armor is better and inpenetrabe for us.

Quote :
Old DE codex was fine, strong, but its number one chief problem, was its susceptibility to abuse, or in other words, unhealthy. Nearly every netlist either had Baron or Duke.

So.. we get punished because Eldar used our characters? Good way to balance a codex. Lets crap on DE because Eldar are strong. When was the last time you saw a PURE DE army finishing top 5? In 5th ed?

Quote :
If it had Baron it certainly came with a fully loaded up beastpack, that took up half the map.

Nope. Baron + Beastpack does nothing too fancy. You have to Add a Seer for (save) rerolls to make that unit threatening. Again. Eldar.

Quote :
Everyone then brought 3 ravagers,

I wonder why when the rest of the Heavy support section was utter garbage (and still is)

Quote :
s many troop choices- 5 haywyches in a venom.

Somehow you need to deal with tanks and the new favorite GW pet the darn Knight. As every single vehicle got buffed, Dark Lances are nearly out of the game. Hell you need around 5 LAnce shots to strip a single hullpoint from any AV12+ vehicle (and thats not even taking a better cover save than 5+ into account). Thats 2 Ravagers per Hullpoint.

Quote :
but it was to the point where other choices... were crowded out.

They are still crowded out. Do you think that just because popular picks got nerfed suddenly unpopular pick which are even WORSE will shine?
Go talk to T3 Hellions. They die as soon as they see a single Imperial squad. No point reduction ever will get them useful.

Maybe deep strike a ravager behind a Wave Serpent or equivalent vehicle with rear av 10? Aside from the fact that Reavers w/ Caltrops can now reliably flip over AV10. Drugs or not. Even wyches provided they roll the strength drug, combined with furious charge, can and will flip vehicles. And if strength is on a roll of 3, then you are fairly likely get this result.

Huskblades cause Instant Death, if the character failed his toughness test. At T5, it's very slim.

We can still shoot the character later. All we have to is just deny him, or isolate him early on. Even if we don't kill the guy, if he strikes at nothing or just one squad for a good portion of the game we have won. The other guy spent upward off 200 pts trying to swat a mosquito for the whole game.

The critical point i'm getting is that we now have a late game, it's up to us to carefully husband which units for pivotal moments of the game. The old problem we had, was no late game, we relied on our early game- and the problem with that was other armies had equal early games to us, and their early game strengths carried over to late game, whereas the old DE had diminishing returns, as units inevitably got pulverized because not all units had access to early pain tokens, and they were often forced to attack from the front (because often netlists do not buy retrofires, and if its a duke list, still often not seen deep striking) which meant they were facing a barrage of ignore cover weapons.

Another benefit is we now have practical access to entirely new options. Medusae bombs. Sslyth guards w/ Lhamaean. Shardcarbine born (maybe). From what I see, the direction of the new DE, is to amputate the individual parts, but enhance the total sum. Units now have to work in conjunction with each other (like a good ol' raiding party, not a killscore competition) to get the best out of. And the new PfP is a godsend for us playing anything 2k or above.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:12

Its looking like funboats I mean gun boats with warriors and shardcarbine toting trueborn in raiders deepstriking is going to be a common site. Supported by ravagers and blasterborn in venoms and then razordongs  swooping in mid game. Perhaps scourges with haywires will also be more common.

I'm really not seeing an effective pure dark eldar assault list coming together. Rather a straight up murderlize everything on one side of the board so the other Half of the opponents army isn't in range style of play again.

I hope Im wrong, I like having the option to run kabal or wych. Maybe coven will be more interesting now as well

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:24

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Maybe deep strike a ravager behind a Wave Serpent or equivalent vehicle with rear av 10?

Lol. 3+ cover save. Even if the serpent has to jink at this point (which it will do gladly as it can eat a tasty ravager in her turn) it just turns around and still balsts you into oblivion with rerolable ignore cover shots.
Every other vehicle you need to pop (Wyvern, Russes,...) will be at the table edge wher you cant shock into their rear and have additional risk of shocking off the table if you try to get the side (which would not matter anyways)

Quote :
Even wyches provided they roll the strength drug, combined with furious charge, can and will flip vehicles.

On turn 4. Better ask your opponent to not shoot you till you have your PfP ready.

Quote :
And if strength is on a roll of 3, then you are fairly likely get this result.

Learn probabilities. A roll of 3 on a single dice roll is as probably as a oll of 1, 2, 4, 5, or 6.

Quote :
Huskblades cause Instant Death, if the character failed his toughness test. At T5, it's very slim.

No, they cause instant death on a successful wound. But not very likely on T5 and an inpenetrable 2+ save (which is cheaper that our shadowfield and does not burn out)

Quote :
All we have to is just deny him

Cant deny a unit that moves 12" + 24"
Where should he get stuck? Kill 2 Wyches and let the test against Ld6. No more stuck, reposition and get next unit. Its not that we have a 30 man squad of fearless conscripts like IG or fearless mass gaunts or a nearly fearless 30 orkboyz squad.
Quote :

The critical point i'm getting is that we now have a late game,

No we have not. Units have not changed. You had no lategame because your Army died. This has not changed. It even got worse for some key units who cant have FnP on turn 1 now.
You still face a barrage of ignore cover weapons and if you deepstrike too much you get tabled before your reserves arrive (speaking of reserves, only 2/3 of your reserves arrive on turn 2)
Quote :

And the new PfP is a godsend for us playing anything 2k or above.

Which is quite rare as most games tned to be around 1500 - 1850



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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:29

@PainReaver wrote:
I'm sick of the whine.

Well, I'm sick of the bullying. If you look at all these rumours and think 'Everything is going to be awesome!', that's fine, it's your opinion. However, if someone else argues 'No, everything is going to suck!', they should be able to say that without being told that they're just not as Dark Eldar as thou, or too whiny, or not clever enough, or whatever.

It's as if it isn't enough to be 'positive' about all this, but it's also required that everyone else also be positive, or else shut up. That's not fair, we have all spent countless hours painting and collecting the little space elf b**'s, and you're not any more of a 'true' DE fan than they are just because you feel unbridled optimism regardless of anything and they don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:44

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Well, I'm sick of the bullying. If you look at all these rumours and think 'Everything is going to be awesome!', that's fine, it's your opinion. However, if someone else argues 'No, everything is going to suck!', they should be able to say that without being told that they're just not as Dark Eldar as thou, or too whiny, or not clever enough, or whatever.

It's as if it isn't enough to be 'positive' about all this, but it's also required that everyone else also be positive, or else shut up. That's not fair, we have all spent countless hours painting and collecting the little space elf b**'s, and you're not any more of a 'true' DE fan than they are just because you feel unbridled optimism regardless of anything and they don't.

Well said.
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:48

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:
I'm sick of the whine.

Well, I'm sick of the bullying. If you look at all these rumours and think 'Everything is going to be awesome!', that's fine, it's your opinion. However, if someone else argues 'No, everything is going to suck!', they should be able to say that without being told that they're just not as Dark Eldar as thou, or too whiny, or not clever enough, or whatever.

It's as if it isn't enough to be 'positive' about all this, but it's also required that everyone else also be positive, or else shut up. That's not fair, we have all spent countless hours painting and collecting the little space elf b**'s, and you're not any more of a 'true' DE fan than they are just because you feel unbridled optimism regardless of anything and they don't.

Too true. I myself am optimistic, and am looking forward to the changes the new book will bring to the lists we got used to seeing all the time, but I certainly don't expect everyone else to share my optimism. But then it looks like the things I always wanted to find a reason to use, like the Court, Mandrakes and the Succubus (if she's the only one who can take the Archite Glaive) are being buffed, so I would be happy I suppose Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:49

I'm not a mod but again, I think peope could do with re-reading the Count's post at the bottom of page 36.

Lets all just chill a bit, this is one of the best forums for friendliness and behaviour I've ever been on lets keep it that way Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 12:51

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:
I'm sick of the whine.

Well, I'm sick of the bullying. If you look at all these rumours and think 'Everything is going to be awesome!', that's fine, it's your opinion. However, if someone else argues 'No, everything is going to suck!', they should be able to say that without being told that they're just not as Dark Eldar as thou, or too whiny, or not clever enough, or whatever.

It's as if it isn't enough to be 'positive' about all this, but it's also required that everyone else also be positive, or else shut up. That's not fair, we have all spent countless hours painting and collecting the little space elf b**'s, and you're not any more of a 'true' DE fan than they are just because you feel unbridled optimism regardless of anything and they don't.

I agree that we should respect each other opinions and be careful not to be dismissive of them, but at the same time complaints about the rumors of how the codex may be terrible are not particularly productive. They tend to turn threads into echo chambers of negative thought where ideas and tactics are dismissed out of hand because things are different than they were. To me that's what dakkadakka is for.

No one should be shamed into being positive about the changes, but if you want to continue to play DE then you will want to adapt to them. The new codex, regardless of quality, will open up new tactical puzzles to solve, and it would be much more effective to turn our energy into figuring it out instead of lamenting what was lost.
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 13:03

As a LONGtime DE tourney player, I have serious reservations, but I will hold off on screaming doom and gloom, until i have the book in my hands, and have thoroughly looked at it.

I want a stand alone DE force that can win tournaments. In other words, on par with Tau, Eldar, Demons or space marines.
Is that too much to ask?

I have a large, multi day tournament coming this weekend. Want to know what I am facing?

Out of the 36 armies, Half of them have Imperial Knights.
And worse, A LOT, and i mean a lot of those have 3 knights in that stupid lance formation, with Necron allies backing them up.

What have you read in the new dex rumors that has even a chance to compete with this?
Nothing.
Not one darn thing.

Luckily, my list is full of haywire wyches, so I have a good shot at eating those things, but a month from now when I am forced to use the new dex?

Sorry, but hammer of wrath jetbikes charging a knight is just plain stupid. As is throwing Talos at them, or ravagers trying to get past not only AV12 but a rerollable 4+ (or 3+) save!

There has to be something we are missing or not seeing here, or Dark Eldar as a competitive army is in much worse shape now than they were.

I refuse to believe that this is what we are destined to be...

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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 13:07

I have to say, if the Archon has lost all access to AP2 weapons, then that's just depressing.

Honestly, I have few enough reasons to even attempt melee at the moment, without AP2 being removed as well.

I guess I just don't see the point of AP3 in general, especially in melee and especially especially on a character. We can put out enough firepower to make marines reliably fail saves, without ever needing to leave the comfort of our transports. And, it seems like the new splinter racks will only improve that ability. So, the idea of leaving said transport and charging across no man's land in an attempt to accomplish the same thing with considerably greater risk seems dubious at best.

Obviously the other thing our melee weapons can bring is poison to hurt MCs, bikers and the like. Well, if only we had some poison shooting, then we wouldn't need melee for that either. Say, for example, if even our basic weapons had 4+ poison. Rolling Eyes

Do you guys find AP3 melee weapons perform a useful role for you?

@Trystis wrote:

No one should be shamed into being positive about the changes, but if you want to continue to play DE then you will want to adapt to them.

I disagree.

When GW are charging twice the price for bland, boring books with multiple units removed and diminished flavour/uniqueness, I think it's perfectly reasonable to draw the line and refuse to purchase the new book or any of the new models.

'Adapting' to bad rules doesn't help because it just allows GW to get away with those bad rules, as well as extortionate prices and reduced effort - so long as they can dangle some shiny models in front of us. As someone who doesn't like to be treated like a cross between a magpie and a sentient wallet, I have no intention of buying a codex if the rules are this bad.

Now, maybe some/all of these rumours are false and the codex will be really good. However, especially with GW's previous track record, my instinct is to just assume that it will be crap until it can prove otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 13:28

@The Shredder wrote:
 However, especially with GW's previous track record, my instinct is to just assume that it will be crap until it can prove otherwise.

A reasonable point that I agree with. But its the proving otherwise is what this forum excels in so I'm not going to start to count my chickens before the rotting eggs hatch Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 13:45

The problem is that if you want to keep using your army - you have to adapt. No ifs or buts (save with friends maybe). The majority of the time in pick up games, at clubs or stores or events - it's the current dex or don't play

By not adapting yes you might hurt GW but more likely you hurt yourself more

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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 13:49

@Massaen wrote:
The problem is that if you want to keep using your army - you have to adapt. No ifs or buts (save with friends maybe). The majority of the time in pick up games, at clubs or stores or events - it's the current dex or don't play

By not adapting yes you might hurt GW but more likely you hurt yourself more

OT: Massaen, just noticed you are west australian. So am I lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 14:11

is it true that Ravagers lose Aerial assault and Incubi become unwieldy?

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PostSubject: Re: Our Codex is confirmed! - *** summary as of Sept. 29 in OP ***   Mon Sep 29 2014, 14:13

Sub-realm Collapsed - This thread is no longer constructive.

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