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 "YAWNS" New code.

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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Thu Sep 18 2014, 15:28

I will have to look through this thread. While our combat options are perhaps limited (but this is not by our army book, rather by the main rules hindering combat at every turn), I think we have a still-strong codex. There are things I would tweak, sure, the biggest "change" being to Mandrakes, but even there it wouldn't take much.

I do like the idea of the Void Mine being S:D. I mean... it actually makes sense. It's a one-use small blast that can scatter off course. And GW wants to sell the fancy new kit, so there's definitely that.
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Thu Sep 18 2014, 23:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Lord_Alino wrote:
What exactly do we even need? Our codex really only needs warlord traits. I couldn't care less about relics.

Well there's a (currently) 8 page thread here (in which you are quite active) which seems to imply that more than Warlord Traits are required.

That's a wishlist. I post on it for stuff I wish for but doubt will happen Razz
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Slaanesh
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Fri Sep 19 2014, 15:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
such as what happens when a non-Fearless unit breaks with a Fearless character attached, but I think that these can be worked around.

in 2nd Edition that used to happen. His unit would run away, but He would stay. Even if he was only a unit leader or champion.
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Elzadar
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Fri Sep 19 2014, 17:09

@Anggul wrote:
@Lord_Alino wrote:
What exactly do we even need? Our codex really only needs warlord traits. I couldn't care less about relics.

Good Mandrakes, cheaper Scourges, combat drugs fixed, most of the useless upgrades fixed, Archons that are capable of functioning without a shadow field and praying they don't roll a single one, Succubi that are actually capable of taking on enemy leaders and not being splatted with ease.

Flyers that actually do what they say on the tin. Give the Razorwing the option for anti-armour missiles so it can take on enemy flyers properly. The void mine is pathetic compared to the fluff. It should be a S10 AP1 large blast with armourbane considering how terrifyingly destructive it's supposed to be. I would probably even make it strength D but for game purposes that might be a bit overwhelming unless you make it really expensive in which case we would run the risk of having it intercepted before it gets to do anything and losing out on a lot of points.

That's all I can think of right now. Those things would be very nice to have.

you complete and absolutely nailed it man Razz

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Fri Sep 19 2014, 23:58

@Lord_Alino wrote:
What exactly do we even need?

Hmm, let's see. In no particular order:

- Melee units that actually work.

- A lot of units need point drops.

- Come to that, so do a lot of weapons. Assuming blasters don't get an extra shot (which is the only reason plasmaguns cost 15pts), they should be 10pts. Dark Lances should probably be 15, unless GW would instead like to make them actually good. Rolling Eyes

- Wracks either straight troops or good enough to actually qualify as 'elites'.

- Haemonculus Ancient gets IWND (very minor buff, but fits the fluff), also it would be nice if there was more of a reason to take them (and Urien, for that matter).

- Refined Power from Pain system - taking into account that 2/3 of the current rules (including the one we rely on to aid our pathetic survivability) were nerfed in 6th.

- More weapon options on our vehicles. If it's not too much trouble, maybe ones that are actually useful.

- More weapon options on Trueborn and Warriors. Why is it that Marines can have about 10 different weapons, but we're stuck with:
- A Dark Lance
- A Short-range Dark Lance
- A garbage flamer-wannabe that no one ever takes
- More poison (we were running a bit short)

We even have other weapons - haywire blasters, heat lances etc. - they're just not available for... um... reasons.

- In particular, with vehicles being so amazing in this edition, it would be nice if we had some better weapons for taking them out. Eldar has a variety of useful weapons... yet we're stuck with just dark lances. I thought the point of a glass-cannon was that we can deal a lot of damage, but can't take damage back. So, why are our weapons outclassed by virtually every other race?


Also, whilst I like the idea of poison weapons, more recently I've found them as much of a hindrance as a bonus (can't hurt vehicles, worse against T3). At the very least, it would be nice to see either some different values for poison (not just a blanket 4+), or different weapons having different strength values (so, they're all 4+ still, but some can reroll against certain toughness scores). Come to that, why is it we're stuck with 4+ poison? I mean, even our Special Character - the pirate master of contraband - can only get 3+ poison. And yet SM sternguard get poison that is literally twice as effective. Go go Gadget Pea-Shooter!


- Really, a lot of equipment in general needs looking at - so much of it is worthless or just badly-overpriced:

Venom Blades - Good, basic weapon. No complaints, however, it always feels wrong when something like this is our go-to weapon - even for HQs - because our other weapons are so terrible and/or overpriced.

Power Weapons - I might consider a Power Axe on a Haemonculus (if I had spare points), or on one of our Sergeants, but that's about it.

Huskblade - Seems far too expensive for S3 models. Still, it's currently our only AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative and at least has a solid effect. Also, why does a Haemonculus pay as much for this as an Archon? Yeah, fear those WS4 I4 attacks. Rolling Eyes

Agoniser - Not a poison weapon, and now only AP3. Sigh. Our glass-cannon seems to be lacking ammunition.

Electrocorrosive Whip - Does anyone ever use this? I feel you could knock off 75% of its price and it would still never see play.

Flesh Gauntlet - Is there some sort of design code whereby crap weapons have to cost 20pts? I can't think of many situations where this would be better than Venom Blades (and it costs 4 times as much), and even fewer where poison-shooting wouldn't work even better. Still, at least it's available on the combat beast that is the Haemonculus...

Mindphase Gauntlet - An initiative-based weapon that's exclusive to I4 models (And the Haem. Ancient). Also very specific in its targets, and doesn't actually improve your combat abilities one iota. At least it's cheap, I guess.

Djin Blade - Combine with soul-trap and you can create possibly the only HQ in the game capable of instant-deathing himself. I'm not sure what particular issue that ability solves, but it's bound to solve something.

Animus Vitae - Did this really need to be a special weapon, rather than just working with whatever weapon the model happens to be wielding? In my mind this weapon is 'special' in the same way that the kid eating paste is 'special'.

Personally, I'd like to see more 'solid' weapons (like the agonizer pre-6th) - rather than ones that might do something useful if it's exactly 6pm, on a Tuesday and your opponent is feeling generous.

- Raiders get capacity 11 and/or Venoms get capacity 6. Every other race has at least one vehicle that can hold a 5- or 10-man squad plus 1-2 characters, I don't see why we need to be left out.

It would certainly be nice if the Agoniser was allowed its AP2 back. It's more than a little irritating that an I8 Succubus is only allowed AP2 if she's willing to sacrifice 7 points of initiative!

- I'm also with the others who'd like options for our HQs to take Skyboards and Jetbikes.

- Shadow Field save can never be rerolled, but a failed save only disables it until the end of the current turn.



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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 00:42

Shadowfield seems broken to me. I enjoy the fragile 2+ one. Maybe a points drop on it.

AP2 Agonisers would be amazing.

Although this seems like something that they'd do on one of those ancient FaQ sheet things. Also, RAIDERS GET 12 NOT 11 OR I'LL GO INSANE!

Also, the idea for raiders and venoms to get 11 to 6 just for a character is more of a dream then a need.

I'm with everyone for Skyboards and Jetbikes.

"Flesh Gauntlet - Is there some sort of design code whereby crap weapons have to cost 20pts? I can't think of many situations where this would be better than Venom Blades (and it costs 4 times as much), and even fewer where poison-shooting wouldn't work even better. Still, at least it's available on the combat beast that is the Haemonculus..." I've always thought these should be 10 but I don't complain. Also, Haemonculi aren't supposed to be combat beasts, that's not what they're known for in the fluff. If you want a combat beast take an Archon for high cost games and a Succubus for low cost.

"Venom Blades - Good, basic weapon. No complaints, however, it always feels wrong when something like this is our go-to weapon - even for HQs - because our other weapons are so terrible and/or overpriced." Agreed. I put this on nearly... everything that is CC or most HQS in lower point games.

I may of missed it but Wych CC special weapons need to be better or reduced in price.

More options for Trueborn and Warriors would be nice. But comparing them to marines is harsh considering you know... poster boys.

"Unless GW wants to make them actually good." They're... dark lances... what do you want, Strength 9?

We have some really good melee units. Incubi, Drazhar, Lelith, Grotesques, Wracks are meh. They've always reminded me of Warriors in CC. (Poison wise)

Huskblade is S7. Read the FaQ

Anyways, I personally think our codex is still pretty flippin solid. We still have tons of good things.
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 01:39

@Elzadar wrote:
@Anggul wrote:
@Lord_Alino wrote:
What exactly do we even need? Our codex really only needs warlord traits. I couldn't care less about relics.

Good Mandrakes, cheaper Scourges, combat drugs fixed, most of the useless upgrades fixed, Archons that are capable of functioning without a shadow field and praying they don't roll a single one, Succubi that are actually capable of taking on enemy leaders and not being splatted with ease.

Flyers that actually do what they say on the tin. Give the Razorwing the option for anti-armour missiles so it can take on enemy flyers properly. The void mine is pathetic compared to the fluff. It should be a S10 AP1 large blast with armourbane considering how terrifyingly destructive it's supposed to be. I would probably even make it strength D but for game purposes that might be a bit overwhelming unless you make it really expensive in which case we would run the risk of having it intercepted before it gets to do anything and losing out on a lot of points.

That's all I can think of right now. Those things would be very nice to have.

you complete and absolutely nailed it man Razz

Totally off topic and I'm not completely familiar with the 7th rule book but couldn't you drop the bomb before it was intercepted?

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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 04:02

@Lord_Alino wrote:
Huskblade is S7. Read the FaQ

Apologies if I've missed something but... I would LOVE to find this FAQ. The only way a Huskblade is S7 is if you've Soultrap'd an IC and have Furious Charge.

Per the Codex a huskblade is "a power weapon that causes instant death".
Per the FAQ a huskblade is "an AP2 melee weapon with the Instant Death special rule".
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 05:07

Wait. I'm on drugs, don't know why I thought that.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 06:30

I'd like a shredder to be a template weapon and have Monomolecular SR. Makes more sense to me.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 06:34

Internal balance. That is what we need. All those wishes for special rule here, better weapon there, Aerial fighter be given fighter loadout, etc, they cry one thing - internal balance.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 10:26

@Lord_Alino wrote:

Also, the idea for raiders and venoms to get 11 to 6 just for a character is more of a dream then a need.

Considering that we have Haemonculi - which are meant to accompany squads to buff them, it seems rather harsh that we can't fit one and a full squad in our transports.

@Lord_Alino wrote:

More options for Trueborn and Warriors would be nice. But comparing them to marines is harsh considering you know... poster boys.

But that's the thing - even if you don't compare them to Marines their weapon selection is still awful.

@Lord_Alino wrote:

"Unless GW wants to make them actually good." They're... dark lances... what do you want, Strength 9?

Well, considering that they're currently more expensive than Lascannons but worse about 75% of the time, I certainly wouldn't mind S9. What I'd really like though is AP1. If 90% of our models are only allowed dark lances or blasters as their anti-tank, at least make them good at their job. 1/6 chance to destroy a vehicle, on a single-shot weapon that's both very expensive and has a horrible chance to actually penetrate armour, is just insulting.

@Lord_Alino wrote:

We have some really good melee units. Incubi, Drazhar, Lelith, Grotesques, Wracks are meh. They've always reminded me of Warriors in CC. (Poison wise)

None of those are particularly good. Lelith has been awful since 5th because of S3, and none of the nerfs to CC brought by 6th have improved her. Incubi are good if they can get to combat and stay there the entire game from then on. Otherwise, they're dead the minute they end up in the open (because their transport got shot down, or because they failed their charge, or because they wiped out their enemy in combat). Drazhar is decent, but far too expensive. Not sure about Grots. They have better survivability, but with the small number you can fit into a transport, I'm not sure it amounts to enough survivability.

To clarify btw, my concern with our melee units isn't so much that they're bad in combat (though I think Lelith is) - it's actually getting them to combat and surviving if they wipe out (or chase down) their target.
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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 12:43

I think we just need some cool funky war gear that works. A fun fast playstyle that is challenging but rewarding, and awesome models. That's all I want, and I think I will get it.

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PostSubject: Re: "YAWNS" New code.   Sat Sep 20 2014, 13:37

I'm pretty excited for the new codex and the supplement myself (part of why I like the supplements is because once they finish updating all armies I'm hoping they keep releasing themed supplements and data slates so maybe we'll get more attention in another year or so).

I don't expect a lot of big changes either, I'm really hoping for just minor adjustments to thing like mandrakes and weapon costs as many of you have mentioned. It depresses me to no end comparing blasterborn to firedrakes as is. I'd also like to get the razorwing moved to fast attack and I absolutely agree about getting more options to our characters and units like jetbikes. I'd love to see a more handheld version of the disintegrator too.
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