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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 13:30

I still cant see how its possible to scream nerf when there isn't actually a codex out and no one has actually played with the new dex. Granted it doesn't look brilliant, a few diamonds amongst the many many turds but until we actually get to play it, I wouldn't count your chickens.

I feel like perhaps we are the Black Templars of the Xenos. Maybe the next iteration of Codex Eldar will include us in it just to make things easier.

Edit: Love the picture though Razz

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 13:31

to be clear here, I'm screaming nerf specifically about Wyches.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 13:34

Yes I would agree. As much as I don't want to scream nerf, looks like Wyches may struggle. Its a shame I own 40.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 13:35

25, and painted lovingly for me.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 13:48

If the Wych weapons confer the relevant rules to the whole unit then Wyches could be a viable combat unit. I doubt that is going to happen though and Wyches will be consigned to the dustbin for the next few years.

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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:09

so in my standard size game of  1750pts,  6 razorwing's (6fast attack) which we can apparently take now.  3 voidravens for HS  and a token HQ and troops to start  well hidden at the back of the table.
screw mission objectives, ill just fly around blowing stuff up,  win or lose it'll annoy people.

and in smaller games i can substitute voidravens for ravager's
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:15

You are around 1400 without weapons whit this. so you get around an archon with no gear and 2 raiders.

Tabled first round.
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:34

wont have the troops in raiders, they'll be hiding as far back as possible, spread out across the board. only 1 model has to survive till turn 2
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:38

hide everything beyond LoS terrain, wait for the enemy to come, then jump up and say Ni!
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:38

One of the image leaks from the codex showed something on the Troops entry with I6 and 2 attacks. Wyches may have lost their tank hunting abilities, but they can be still useful in combat, especially combining with drugs and pfp. Useful, I said- not wreck face.

woop- double posted
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 14:41

@PainReaver wrote:
One of the image leaks from the codex showed something on the Troops entry with I6 and 2 attacks. Wyches may have lost their tank hunting abilities, but they can be still useful in combat, especially combining with drugs and pfp. Useful, I said- not wreck face.

Provided that isn't just the extra attack from having an additional close combat weapon being included in their profile. Equally well, it could just be the Hekatrix. I don't know the Spanish for Hekatrix, unfortunately!
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 15:20

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 15:25

@PainReaver wrote:
It seems on their base profile.

http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/bye-byeasdruval-vectconfirmado.html

First image.

Pretty sure that that is the hekatrix since it is leadership 9 or boodbrides if they still have a section in the back. I'm betting the former since the In in unit type is slightly to the left meaning it most likely has (cha) right after.


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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 15:26

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:
It seems on their base profile.

http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/bye-byeasdruval-vectconfirmado.html

First image.

Pretty sure that that is the hekatrix since it is leadership 9 or boodbrides if they still have a section in the back. Alphabetically blood brides make the most sense.

If its bloodbrides, i wonder why it falls under troops lol. So much for clarity and streamlining.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 15:40

Also note that the names of the models/units are as written in English, so if it's the troops section, it's likely to include Kabalite Warriors, Sybarites, Wyches and Hekatrices(trixes?). THose lists are almost always in alphabetical order, which would suggest it's the Hekatrix.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Wed Oct 01 2014, 17:05

@Count Adhemar wrote:
If the Wych weapons confer the relevant rules to the whole unit then Wyches could be a viable combat unit. I doubt that is going to happen though and Wyches will be consigned to the dustbin for the next few years.

I thought of this too. Once upon a time, Wych weapons did confer their bonus to the entire unit, so it's not unreasonable that they could do so again.

It doesn't seem likely here though.
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 04:58

so to sum up
archon, no longer has access to AP2 melee weaponry
warriors - cheaper but with an increase in special weapon points they'll cost the same as before
wyches - now just suck, period.
reaver's - lost their cool flying attack for HoW bonus's, because you want them in CC.
talos - a shadow of it's former self, you now need $$$ and points to field 2-3 to get the same effect
ravager's - our many anti tank option that no longer starts with anti tank weaponry. It also now moves as slowly as human vehicles if it want to fire all weapons.
mandrakes - slightly better till everyone realises any ignore cover attack will wipe them off the table




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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Fri Oct 03 2014, 09:29

I don't know whether the codex has been nerfed as a competitive book. It would be very hard to nerf in that sense anyway, and while some decent strategems and units are no more, there's probably some boons and bonuses out of the improvement to Grotesques and Haywire Scourges. Too early to say. But not too early to put my bets on it not cutting the mustard, even if boosted.

But as a book in general, as an offering of how to play a Dark Eldar army, it's been nerfed. It's removed more options than it's given, it's handed out a brutal nerfing to Wyches, it's simplified some cool things. It's a bad book. I feel confident in saying that. I haven't played 7th yet. Why? Because I've learned the lesson that any GW edition lives and dies by its codices. This is the third boring codex that's nerfed a lot of popular builds and doesn't offer its users a hope against the strongest codices of the last two editions - but does mysteriously offer its best stuff in a seperate book.

I feel like I've learned everything I need to know about this edition and it doesn't involve me playing.
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 19:04

Well I can say, so far, in terms of my own game play, after hours of study and number crunching, the HQ and Heavy Support sections are definitely worse overall than the 5th edition book.

The loss of the Haemonculus for 50 points forces me to take a less efficient HQ, and Ravagers are still our best option in heavy support, but with the loss of aerial assault and the point increase they're definitely worse than they were, yet they remain the best unit in the section, eww. I still have to comb over troops, elites, and fast attack (have a lot of hope for fast attack and troops), but yeah so far, not so good. For me. Specifically.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 19:13

For me its HQ (took the small haemi), Heavy support (agree that Ravager is still the best despite the nerfs) AND Troops (Nightfield + Splinter Cannon + Lance + Racks + Kabalites went up in price)

So in sum my "to go" list is around 135 more expensive without gaining any significant buff to compensate the additional kabalites on Venom I could have used.
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 20:17

I can, finally, happily say I have a different outlook on troops, interesting we have similar units we look for. I don't count the transport as part of the troop choice really. It's it's own unit. But similarly the best unit looks like it's still as you say Splinter Cannon + racks + Kabalites which actually stays the same price, so the only difference is now racks effect the splinter cannon. This would count as a buff. Not a huge one though. Literally like a 7% increase in wounds. The price hike for lances and the snapshot rule for jink will probably see me fielding raiders with DCs. I can't say dedicated transports are worse as our star, the venom, remains mainly unchanged. So overall I'd say troops received neither a buff or nerf.

Yes, yes wyches suck now and that's a nerf, but they were suicide squads anyway. I made the mistake of running 6 haywire wych squads as my troop choices once in 6th. Suicide bombers rarely capture an objective. Was fun though.

So, so far, in my opinion, in terms of sections, we have two nerfs and a tie.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 20:25

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Well I can say, so far, in terms of my own game play, after hours of study and number crunching, the HQ and Heavy Support sections are definitely worse overall than the 5th edition book.

The loss of the Haemonculus for 50 points forces me to take a less efficient HQ, and Ravagers are still our best option in heavy support, but with the loss of aerial assault and the point increase they're definitely worse than they were, yet they remain the best unit in the section, eww. I still have to comb over troops, elites, and fast attack (have a lot of hope for fast attack and troops), but yeah so far, not so good. For me. Specifically.

Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

It's difficult to know what to get if everything you used has now changed, even if it's only a small shift. I too mourn the loss of the cheap and cheerful 1-3 Haemonculi as one HQ choice, though they presumably took that out so it felt more unique to be able to do it with the Covens book. I'm flip flopping between Archon and Haemonculus as my second HQ, I can't decide. Succubus definitely gets picked as first choice though.

I think the key to adapting is to add in the newly god units gradually and just tweak stuff a little bit at a time. As a lot of stuff has fundamentally the same job, but just does it slightly better or slightly worse, it would be too jarring to just start a list from scratch and throw a load of new stuff in. That's my approach anyway Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 20:41

@Mr Believer wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Well I can say, so far, in terms of my own game play, after hours of study and number crunching, the HQ and Heavy Support sections are definitely worse overall than the 5th edition book.

The loss of the Haemonculus for 50 points forces me to take a less efficient HQ, and Ravagers are still our best option in heavy support, but with the loss of aerial assault and the point increase they're definitely worse than they were, yet they remain the best unit in the section, eww. I still have to comb over troops, elites, and fast attack (have a lot of hope for fast attack and troops), but yeah so far, not so good. For me. Specifically.

Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

It's difficult to know what to get if everything you used has now changed, even if it's only a small shift. I too mourn the loss of the cheap and cheerful 1-3 Haemonculi as one HQ choice, though they presumably took that out so it felt more unique to be able to do it with the Covens book. I'm flip flopping between Archon and Haemonculus as my second HQ, I can't decide. Succubus definitely gets picked as first choice though.

I think the key to adapting is to add in the newly god units gradually and just tweak stuff a little bit at a time. As a lot of stuff has fundamentally the same job, but just does it slightly better or slightly worse, it would be too jarring to just start a list from scratch and throw a load of new stuff in. That's my approach anyway Smile

Oh I just have a certain way I play and I have a little mathhammer formula to help me find the most optimal units for each part. Might sound a little boring, but trust me, I'm fun! I just don't have the money to trial and error these things. Functionally so far the army appears to act the same. or in other words I don't find myself needing new models, which is good news! If that trend continues I can buy that sexy, beautiful, useless bomber. Personally I'll be going with an Archon and a blaster with a possibility of Medusae and/or Sslyth. If I put him with Sslyth, I might not even buy a shadow field, so 75 points for a BS 7 T5 blaster.I look at them like wargear. I can pay 40 points for a 2++ or 50 points for t5 4wounds and 6 extra poison attacks. Not too shabby. But still not as good as my old fashioned cheap Hammie.


Edit: After reviewing elites, it seems to suffer from the same issue as Heavy Support. Blasterborn and Splinterborn still remain go to units, however both units have seen a point increase Blasterborn +7 and Splinterborn a whopping +17 points. Mandrakes are definitely a lot better and might have some uses. The ossefactor is a cool idea but for the same price I can put a blaster on my kabalites and hurt vehicles and retain the same potency toward infantry. Elites certainly didn't get better, but I'm not sure they're that bad. Losing Splinterborn is disappointing but not a big hit and a 7 point increase on blasterborn isn't that bad either. I do like the new grotesques but to me they're still a delivery system. On foot they're too slow, and in a transport there's not enough of them.

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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Sun Oct 05 2014, 23:24

My troops got cheaper! I never upgraded my raiders anyway except for tank shock and i brought half of them with dissies. The plan for the wyches ever was to multicharge infantry and a tank to put a hullpoint on that. They still can throw one HW grenade in the shooting phase and can glance rear 10 cars. What got more expensive is the haemi for FnP. That one has to come from the supplement now for fearless turn one, the relic for fleet and -1 to leadership. But therefore i can leave the agoniser as they have furious charge turn 3, so the power sword should do just fine. So some changes, but I get the feeling that I can put more stuff into my list as long as i take only one ravager with lances. But hey, scourges! The only question is: where do i put the second haemi from the supplement detachment? I have to admit that i usually kill infantry off with vehicles somehow so i never bothered much for paintokens for my warriors. I am really happy now that they get all the stuff automatically!

The only thing i miss: splinterborn!
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 00:28

@Mr Believer wrote:

Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

Finally got through fast attack and indeed, it is better. In fact every single unit outside of beast packs are better. I mean hellions still suck... but they are cheaper. The funny thing is we all cried for it, but I wish they left the Razorwing in Heavy Support now instead of moving it. The way I build it it's actually 5 points cheaper. Scourges might be the strongest unit in the codex.

Final verdict?

Yeah we did get nerfed a little. It's not the end of the world though. The loss of flickerfields sucks. We did gain 3 fast attack slots for the new hotness, but we lack a single useful entry in heavy support. Even raiders with dissies are more cost effective than a ravager with dissies. We lost a viable unit in elite without really gaining one, and we lost what was for many the best HQ.

But, there's plenty of things to win with. I foresee my archon with 5 trueborn deepstriking behind a target, while razorwings try and clear the skies. Raiders with Warriors pour win-linked poison shots to anything not in a vehicle, while scourges fly around wrecking those vehicles.

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