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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 09:35

@Mr Believer wrote:
Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

Am I missing something with the Realspace Raiders detachment? The ability to take 6 Fast Attack is nice but swapping Objective Secured for Hunt from the Shadows seems like a definite downgrade. Giving the ability to take 6 FA choices but then having a command benefit that doesn't actually apply to them seems bizarre. Also, outside of Imotekh, is there any way for the Night Fighting rules to apply other than on the first turn?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 10:00

Dont see the benefit either. Also this "may reroll Warlord trait" is really useless if you are battleforged anyways.
And as the DE warlord traits are not very good, you might want to still use the BRB traits.
Also that 6+/5+ cover is really moot as it does not stack with actual cover. If you dont play on a billard table you wont even utilize this "cover".
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 10:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

Am I missing something with the Realspace Raiders detachment? The ability to take 6 Fast Attack is nice but swapping Objective Secured for Hunt from the Shadows seems like a definite downgrade. Giving the ability to take 6 FA choices but then having a command benefit that doesn't actually apply to them seems bizarre. Also, outside of Imotekh, is there any way for the Night Fighting rules to apply other than on the first turn?  

Night fighting can fall on the first turn.

Objective secured for us isn't worth all that much, considering most objectives are contested and held by much tougher troops. And if we spread it far enough, against certain armies, they can't catch all of it (or the relevant ones for TO).
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 10:19

@PainReaver wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

Am I missing something with the Realspace Raiders detachment? The ability to take 6 Fast Attack is nice but swapping Objective Secured for Hunt from the Shadows seems like a definite downgrade. Giving the ability to take 6 FA choices but then having a command benefit that doesn't actually apply to them seems bizarre. Also, outside of Imotekh, is there any way for the Night Fighting rules to apply other than on the first turn?  

Night fighting can fall on the first turn.

Objective secured for us isn't worth all that much, considering most objectives are contested and held by much tougher troops. And if we spread it far enough, against certain armies, they can't catch all of it (or the relevant ones for TO).

Whaaaaaat? Shocked
Its not worth becuase tougher troops sit on it so we better dont care?
Objective secured means that you either can claim the objective against other units without the special rule or CONTEST it against other troops.
CONTESTING denies VP. Even if you cant kill that unit you can make sure that it doesnt score either.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 10:49

It's worth it, i think, but not to as much degree as everyone makes it out to be.

And if you want to contest, you'll have to bring actual Wych squads. But considering how much everyone whines about wyches...

What, are you going to contest with Warriors?

So in practice, not worth all that much. Other armies have troops that contest better. The RR detachment is more for leafblowing.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:00

You realize that Raiders when used as dedicated transport for troops count as troops and come with objective secured?
So yes... you actually can contest with Warriors embarked on Raiders. No need for Wyches.

So "in practice" yes, this is a huge deal. Not as huge as Serpents and Eldar Jetbikes but still a big advantage.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:09

Well if you can protect the raider, then yes.

Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Still Wyches can be very useful objective contesters, and allow another raider to cap another.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:09

@PainReaver wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
Fast attack seems to be where it's at for us. Competition would be fierce in that slot... if we didn't have the option to take six of them Twisted Evil

Am I missing something with the Realspace Raiders detachment? The ability to take 6 Fast Attack is nice but swapping Objective Secured for Hunt from the Shadows seems like a definite downgrade. Giving the ability to take 6 FA choices but then having a command benefit that doesn't actually apply to them seems bizarre. Also, outside of Imotekh, is there any way for the Night Fighting rules to apply other than on the first turn?  

Night fighting can fall on the first turn.

Objective secured for us isn't worth all that much, considering most objectives are contested and held by much tougher troops. And if we spread it far enough, against certain armies, they can't catch all of it (or the relevant ones for TO).

I realise Night Fight can fall on the first turn, but the detachment rule says "During the entire first game turn, and during any turn in which the Night Fighting rules are in effect" so I was just curious if anyone knew of any other way for them to be in effect outside of the first turn.

As for ObjSec, if we're playing against tougher troops then surely the ability to contest is more valuable, not less?

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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:10

well at least we'll still get to use some of our paint tokens, to keep track of which units have + (x) to the turn number Smile Smile Smile
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1++
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:14

@PainReaver wrote:


Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Which could be why we were given Dissies as standard on our Raiders...

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 11:47

Obj Sec in Eternal War missions, not worth much, if they have tougher contesting troops as they can mulch our contestants in the end (hint: you can rig the battle with other units).

Obj Sec in Maelstrom, worth a lot more, if the objective you've contested is what you have at the moment, and/or what they have. But note they still don't discard the card, so bear that in mind (and likewise you). Also if the two contesting troops do get into a melee, i hope you brought wyches.

A better bet with objectives is to ensure they are spread out as far as possible.

Ravagers are great for holding home objectives.

That said my list can use either the RR detachment or CAD.
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 12:19

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I can, finally, happily say I have a different outlook on troops, interesting we have similar units we look for. I don't count the transport as part of the troop choice really. It's it's own unit. But similarly the best unit looks like it's still as you say Splinter Cannon + racks + Kabalites which actually stays the same price, so the only difference is now racks effect the splinter cannon. This would count as a buff. Not a huge one though. Literally like a 7% increase in wounds. The price hike for lances and the snapshot rule for jink will probably see me fielding raiders with DCs. I can't say dedicated transports are worse as our star, the venom, remains mainly unchanged. So overall I'd say troops received neither a buff or nerf.

Yes, yes wyches suck now and that's a nerf, but they were suicide squads anyway. I made the mistake of running 6 haywire wych squads as my troop choices once in 6th. Suicide bombers rarely capture an objective. Was fun though.

So, so far, in my opinion, in terms of sections, we have two nerfs and a tie.
A tie counts as a nerf for me, given how awful the last codex was.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 12:40

@1++ wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:


Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Which could be why we were given Dissies as standard on our Raiders...

Which will be jinking most of the time and reduces our Lance count which we need after the loss of HWG and no suitable replacement.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 12:52

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@1++ wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:


Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Which could be why we were given Dissies as standard on our Raiders...

Which will be jinking most of the time and reduces our Lance count which we need after the loss of HWG and no suitable replacement.

Omg, people still sulking about the haywyches. The pattern of 7ed rewrites are: stick. closer. to. fluff. The fluff is about them being gladiatrixes (whose style of combat is to draw it out over a long period)

Haywyches was also one of those unhealthy, auto-take units, that had often little counterplay (zoom up, bomb vehicle, use wreckage as cover). It had to go. Like Baron and beastpack. You can still do it with Hekatrix w/ HWG in a unit of 5, plonk on venom. But it's more used for finishing off.

Scourges can be just as good, with either Heat Lance or Haywire Blaster.

Basically now your AT has to sort of work together.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 12:59

@PainReaver wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@1++ wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:


Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Which could be why we were given Dissies as standard on our Raiders...

Which will be jinking most of the time and reduces our Lance count which we need after the loss of HWG and no suitable replacement.

Omg, people still sulking about the haywyches. The pattern of 7ed rewrites are: stick. closer. to. fluff. The fluff is about them being gladiatrixes (whose style of combat is to draw it out over a long period)

Haywyches was also one of those unhealthy, auto-take units, that had often little counterplay (zoom up, bomb vehicle, use wreckage as cover). It had to go. Like Baron and beastpack. You can still do it with Hekatrix w/ HWG in a unit of 5, plonk on venom. But it's more used for finishing off.

Scourges can be just as good, with either Heat Lance or Haywire Blaster.

Basically now your AT has to sort of work together.


lmao.

If they remove HWG, they should have given them a buff, or at least a points drop.

Does the fluff say "wyches are crap who get annihilated instantly any time they set foot on the ground. they also cant actually kill anything in combat. leave them on the shelf to collect dust" Because if so yeh they're doing a good job sticking. close. to. the. fluff.

Beastpack nerf was also entirely unjustified. They could have removed Baron, or sorted the actual problem with the unit (eldar), instead they removed Baron AND nerfed the actual beasts themselves.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 13:14

@PainReaver wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@1++ wrote:
@PainReaver wrote:


Worth reminding that if the objective holder is a Space Marine unit, they have Krak Grenades, and the occasional melta bomb.

Which could be why we were given Dissies as standard on our Raiders...

Which will be jinking most of the time and reduces our Lance count which we need after the loss of HWG and no suitable replacement.

Omg, people still sulking about the haywyches. The pattern of 7ed rewrites are: stick. closer. to. fluff. The fluff is about them being gladiatrixes (whose style of combat is to draw it out over a long period)

Haywyches was also one of those unhealthy, auto-take units, that had often little counterplay (zoom up, bomb vehicle, use wreckage as cover). It had to go. Like Baron and beastpack. You can still do it with Hekatrix w/ HWG in a unit of 5, plonk on venom. But it's more used for finishing off.

Scourges can be just as good, with either Heat Lance or Haywire Blaster.

Basically now your AT has to sort of work together.


I really suggest you go and play a few competitive games before you spread your wild theories.
Haywyches where auto take because nothing else can deal with multiple knights.
Fluff has nothing to do with changes. Nothing in the fluff says Wyches get slaughtered as soon as they assault. The fight Space Marines one on one in. the. fluff.
The die in droves. on the. board.

Scourges will never be as good as wyches. Not only that your FA slots are quite limited (while troops is not) they also have to hit and cant ignore cover saves (or knight shields, hello adamantine lance) and come at what? triple the cost? Even if you factor the venom in (which can fly off and pick off other infantry units) wyches are superior in every single aspect.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 13:17

Now you see, the way everyone talks about Wyches seems to be under the impression that they are charging into full tac squads, w 2x flamers and a Sergeant with a combi-flamer or 2 units of Tau fire warriors side by side with a Fireblade leading them.

You're doing it wrong.

With the Power From Pain mechanic, they are now guaranteed to get feel no pain on Turn 3 (you move out this turn, and activate jink mode if needed. And Furious Charge on Turn 4. Now drop out and charge. And in the next turn, they have Fearless.

If you rolled a 2 for your drug result, then you get s5. Or otherwise an extra attack. Or extra toughness to go with your feel no pain. If you are lucky/skilled enough, a cronos might be nearby (still not good choice to take though), giving FNP 4+.

Run them in 10, 3 wych weapons. Hydra Gauntlets, they come as a pair. They have Shred, plus an extra attack. So you get about 9 re-rollable to wound attacks (12 with rage/drug, 15 w/ rage + drug). Use them to lock down key threats that could otherwise destroy your army, like Centurions (the longer they stay locked in combat, another unit might assault the Wyches, which means ready up your Incubi/Reavers/Grots to start a large melee). Use them as a counter attack to a unit that might go and claim an objective. Or use it to start a fight so the Incubi can then jump in to finish the unit (going around their lack of grenades)

And you will need them, as they make great objective contesters in Maelstrom missions. A raider could contest/claim, but the raider might explode after, either due to krak grenade, or lascannon. And sending in warriors in melee is unwise (until turn 6 at least, where they can charge into an existing combat).

Chardonyx- you have 6 fast attack slots. Fill them up with Scourges if you wish. And then add Trueborn in the salad.

My DE army is just starting, cash is short and where I live, competitive WAAC is rare. I've never seen an all Imperial Knight army at the nearest GW or FLGS. Because reality tends to ensure all Imperial Knight lists are few and far between (Rent, cost of living and the price of beer is high).

Well Haywyches are gone. No amount of crying will ever change that. You can take out the old 5ed codex, if you want.

You could still sort of do Haywyches, but you'll have to use it as a finishing touch rather than the main course. (Hekatrix w/ HWG + 4 wyches in a venom)
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 14:07

Quote :
My DE army is just starting, cash is short and where I live, competitive WAAC is rare

Thanks. So please spare my your "advise". I play DE since 3rd (Eldar and Chaos since 2nd). Still you somehow think that you have more practical experience.

Get at least 100 (competitive) games under your belt and then please come again to discuss tactics and value with me.

There's no need to be mean about anything. If you want to make comments like this I would advise that you refrain from typing them to keep the forum friendly. The forum is full of people with different levels of experience in 40k and with DE - Cavash.
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novastar
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:00

I Completley agree with Klaivex, the guy above admitted to not play DE for long ( that's fine) and to not play or play against competitive people( fine as well, and WAAC is a made up boogy man term to scare the beer&pretzel players) So please do not give competitive advice, and in my area every imperial player has 1-3 knights. They don't always use them all but Triple Knight list are very common
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:05

I DON’T play competitively, and still think wyches have been nerfed to oblivion.

It’s a fair point to say “no point crying as it’s happened now”, but I also think it’s a fair point to be annoyed that they made a unit almost unusably bad. Removing HWG, fine, but no other buff?
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:40

Yeah. There's, what, two troops choices in the book? And one of them is borderline unusable? That's just bad bookwritin'.
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:50

because troops choices dont matter in 7th ed "supplement and dataslate" edition.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:54

@notts wrote:
because troops choices dont matter in 7th ed "supplement and dataslate" edition.

Tell that to the ObjSec Land Raider filled with ObjSec Terminators that's parked on an objective.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 15:57

yep, those termies, showing up in all the tournament winning lists!

objsec is A LOT less important than people make out.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Get ready for the nerfhammer!   Mon Oct 06 2014, 16:19

I guess thats why Space Marine Bikes as Troops and 5 DA in Serpent are so uncommon, right?
And if Serpent spam is no thing because of restrictions you suddenly dont see MSU Jetbikes because no one ever use them.
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