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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 05:45

Ahoy!

A challenge has been issued, and I'm coming to you skilled warriors for any and all insight, wisdom, and experience you're able to share.

The specifics:
To build a viable Dark Eldar only (no allies) list, ~1500pts, that does not include Raiders or Venoms.
How can it be done?

My buddy doesn't understand why so many Dark Eldar players run Raider and/or Venom heavy lists, and says that our codex should be totally viable without 'em. Ravagers etc are ok, just no transports. In my experience I mostly disagree especially since he plays Tau and Dark Angels/Imp. Fists. so has a scary amount of firepower.
But I'm here to see what the collective of pirates can cook up.

Units that come to mind as strong or decent, listed in that order:

Anti-Infantry
Reaver Jetbikes
Beastpack
Talos/Cronos
Razorwing Jetfighter
Cannon-Trueborn, hiding in terrain?

Anti-Vehicle
Ravager
Voidraven Bomber
Talos
Haywire Scourge?
Dark Lance Trueborn, hiding in terrain?

The trouble, then, is what to do for troops?
What would you suggest?

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Last edited by Laughingcarp on Thu Jul 03 2014, 08:28; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 07:19

Reavers, Beasts and Talos worked in with say 2 squads of 20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons. Baron makes Hellions troops and move pretty well too.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 07:20

No allies right?
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 08:28

Thanks for the catch SCP Yeeman, I'll amend the OP to include that. Straight DE is the name of the game.

1++, I've limited experience with giant warrior blobs. Are they actually worth it or do they just end up running scared? I'd be worried about Whirlwinds and Riptides.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 09:08

@Laughingcarp wrote:
My buddy doesn't understand why so many Dark Eldar players run Raider and/or Venom heavy lists, and says that our codex should be totally viable without 'em. Ravagers etc are ok, just no transports. In my experience I mostly disagree especially since he plays Tau and Dark Angels/Imp. Fists. so has a scary amount of firepower.

Tell him you'll make a list without transports but you'll only play against a Tau list without markerlights.

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 12:08

For troops u can choose wraks, if u need to control objectives.
Or Kabalites as firpower. With SC or Darklight

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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 12:35

How about vect and his dias? Or is that cheating?

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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 14:10

To me, the obvious choice is Baron with Hellion Troops, backed up by a ton of Reavers.
And Ravagers.

If there are points left over, throw into that a lonely pathetic Haemonculi wielding a Webway portal, with either Grotesques or Incubi waiting on the other side of it.
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 14:50

Well, since we are in 7th edition now. Grotesques, couple squads of them at 6+ guys. A couple Talos, and some reavers, maybe beast pack and a bomber for AT. Then go old school 3rd, and take minimal warrior units with a Lance to objective sit. You end up with lots of large multi-wound models that are going to hurt when they hit the lines.

A huskblade/soultrap archon goes well with these, but you could amp up to Urien and boost the Grots.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 15:50

I agree with Adhemar. A list with severe handicaps should play a list with severe handicaps.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Thu Jul 03 2014, 19:05

I was thinking something like this...

Archon, shadowfield, venom blade, haywire, PGL 125
Archon, shadowfield, venom blade, haywire, PGL 125

x5 trueborn, x2 dark lance 110
x5 trueborn, x2 dark lance 110

x 10 warriors, cannon 100
x 10 warriors, cannon 100
x 10 warriors, cannon 100
x 10 warriors, cannon 100

x3 masters, x5 khymera, x4 flock 156
x3 masters, x5 khymera, x4 flock 156

Ravager 105
Ravager 105
Ravager 105

This is more of a competitive list I think if that's what you're looking for.
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 01:21

Hello All and Sundry!

I'm the Dark Angels/Space Marines & new Tau player in question. for a bit more background, basically here's what prompted this discussion.

When I go to build lists against DE, I have found that foot marines get mowed down silly by the firepower of DE gunships, especially with night shields, which is an awesome upgrade. my list building thinking then basically goes
1- I assume there will be boats with night shields, therefore
a) my marines won't be able to trade 24" range guns with raider people, and
b) my scary medium range guns (heavy bolters, plasma cannons) won't be able to reach venoms, since I need effectively 42" (36" standoff for venoms, +6" for night shields) range to hit them, and can't move heavy weapons and then fire without snap firing.
2- I therefore need 30" (24+6")guns to counter raiders and 42" (36+6")guns to counter venoms
(All my thinking here is for space marines, despite someone saying to play a no marker light Tau list (which I'm game for), I have yet to actually play DE vs Tau)
3- 30" and 42" guns don't exist in C:SM, therefore I have to go up to 48" guns, or use drop pods to get inside the shields
4- what has 48" guns?
Troops: nope, okay so drop pod
Elites: termies-no, vets-no, ok so dreadnoughts.
Fast Attack: assaut marines-no, Land Speeders-yep, Stormtalons-yep
Heavy Support: Predator-yep, whirlwind-yep, stormraven-yep, devastators-yep (if playing fists, otherwise las-pred is better)

so what ends up happening, is that if i want to build a list that doesn't just sit there and get shot to bits while I'm out of range cause of shields, I end up picking dreads as elite, drop pods as troops, speeders and fliers as fast, and tanks and fliers as heavy, and run a Mech list

Laughingcarp finds this distasteful, and while there are answers to mech SM (lance spam, MSU wyches, and in this particular case, hilarious outflanking mandrakes that blow up my predator  Sad   ), these have two problems it seems
1- they are apparently "sub-par" things to run, and
2- Laughingcarp doesn't  prefer to play this style of list, although MSU wyches are sometimes a thing, also in our team games (we play well together)

so its kind of a rock-paper scissors circle he's stuck in (I'm not stuck, my Mech lists do well)
basically goes like this
I can't hit his stuff with infantry and get poisoned silly, so i take mech
He would have to take a non poison-boats list to counter mech
If he took a non poison-boats list, I wouldn't feel the need to run mech

And thus, having not ever played DE, and only seeing boat lists coming my way, I put it to him to try and see if a non poison boat list could be a thing. He took it one step farther and asked you guys for no boats.

To clarify, my challenge to him would not exclude things like wrack boats, grotesque boats, haywych boats, or archon and his stabby friends whose name I can't remember boats

TY
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 05:39

Bikes are fast enough to negate the night shields. Also, if using white scars, your in range first turn, just need to weather the first turn of shooting. Mech space marines are back in a big way and taking 10 tactical marines with a Lascannon and a razorback can be effective and give you two units(if you take a lascannon on the back) with 48" range and two units that can cause problems for us.
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 08:52

I see no reason why you can't forego transports. I play with zero Wave Serpents in my Eldar list.

For one, the army has some pretty impressive speed Daemons in its repertoire so mobility is really not even the reason why you take Raiders. maybe the original Posters friend who feels they "shouldn't be necessary" is missing that they ARENT. We take them because they are GOOD.

But lets get past that.

1: 1500 means a LOT less Shenanigans facing you. It plays different.
2: The first kills tend to be very telling at 1500 points.

So here we go:

Anti-tank: cheapest and easiest anti-tank is probably the Heat Lance Reavers. Like Fire Dragons from a Wave Serpent they like to zip up, dare you to kill them and then pop your tank but their real value is to pull fire off of the more important stuff. Easy to hide in small numbers, which is useful info.

3 x 3 Reavers (Heat Lance)

Anti-horde/Anti-MEQ et al: The VoidRaven Bomber is the last word in terror technology. Take 4 Shatterfield missiles and call me in the morning. Mandrakes put out really good firepower once they are joined by their haemonculous. Between these two things, you wont have to worry bout hordes or lots of troopies anymore.

VoidRaven Bomber w flickerfield.

2 x 10 mandrakes w Night Fiend

3 x Haemonculous, one is an Ancient. all have HuskBlades. One carries the Orb of Despair, Dark Gate and Crucible of Malediction.

Anti-Air: you're squishy plus you need this. an Aegis Defense line is essential at 1500 just to keep the enemy honest and frankly you'll like what it does to skimmers over the course of a game.

Aegis Defense Line (Quad gun)

Scoiring units: Need less of them than at higher points levles BUT, why take the chance? They can fire posion downrange at mean nasties or scuttle to take objectives. Either way you need em.

5 x 5 Kabalite Warriors (Blaster)

Anti-TEQ: Reavers and the Kabalite Warriors can combine to bring pain to an errant 5 man terminator squad, and since Terminators et all cant sweeping advance, the few that survive will not kill enough Dark Eldar to matter after you run then regroup. The orb of Despair won't hurt either.


To summarise:


3 x 3 Reavers (Heat Lance)
VoidRaven Bomber w flickerfield (4 Shatterfield Missiles).
2 x 10 mandrakes w Night Fiend
3 x Haemonculous, one is an Ancient. all have HuskBlades. One carries the Orb of Despair, one the Dark Gate and one the Crucible of Malediction.
Aegis Defense Line (Quad gun)
5 x 5 Kabalite Warriors (Blaster)

Try that. Remember to reserve the troops you don't need immediately (which will vary by opponent). Keep the mandrake holding action in play as long as possible and dont forget to put the Aegis at least 18-24 inches from your board edge.

Good luck.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 09:30

@nwabudikemorgan wrote:
hilarious outflanking mandrakes that blow up my predator

@Unorthodoxy wrote:
Mandrakes put out really good firepower once they are joined by their haemonculous.

Two posts in the same topic claiming that Mandrakes aren't terribad! What is the world coming to?

I'm going to have to argue on both counts though. A unit of 5 Mandrakes (with a pain token) inflicts an awe-inspiring one casualty against MEQ with its shooting attacks. The same unit cannot penetrate a Predator without having at least 2 pain tokens and, absent the 2nd token, inflicts a mighty 1.67 Hull Points on the charge. Plus, as they are Outflanking, they have to stand around for a turn looking embarrassed whilst they wait for their ability to charge to reappear, during which time the Predator could simply move out of charge range or the unit could get shot to hell and back.

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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 09:50

The outflanking mandrakes nwabudikemorgan speaks of (found HERE) outflanked with a haemonculus, so showed up and fired 20 shots into the rear armour of a Pred. It got wrecked not exploded, he was just being dramatic. Though I daresay I did do a good job getting him to present rear armour to the side of the board before they showed up.

Unorthodoxy, I'm not at all confident about 5x5 kabalites as the troop choices for this. With your 3 haemies, presumably one with each mandrake unit then one goes...?
But you present good arguments overall, though RAW I don't believe fortifications are allowed to be deployed outside your DZ anymore.

SCP, bikes are a thing he has considered. And in the list you presented, what roles do the two Archons play?

Red King & the Count, again; Agreed that playing playing a list like this is playing with a huge handicap. The issue we're experiencing is that as he explained he sees it as an arms race, and since our group of buddies always gives a heads up as to which codex we'll be playing beforehand there is nothing but list tailoring going on.
And now that I've presented the concept of not telling people which codex we'll be playing in advance, he says DE have an unfair advantage in that they can use pretty much the same list versus most enemies. (That is to say, dark lances and poison guns work on vehicles and infantry alike. So, really, I don't understand the issue. But he maintains it's a problem.) That, and the fact that some people in our group only have one army to choose from.

The others, who have similar points; Hellions are squishy and need to be unfortunately close to accomplish anything, and while grots and the like are tough as nuts they will suffer wave after wave of enemy fire before clearing the board, something multiple units of fire warriors or assault cannons or what have you can dish out no prob.
Dark Eldar armour is as good as having scraps of parchment tied around your tender bits before stepping in front of a musket line.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 18:42

In my list the Archons run with the Beast packs. They provide LD 10, assault grenades, and a nice character that can take on anything. Plus the Packs are small enough to maneuver well and could be overlooked by your opponent. If they arent, well then he has to kill two squads of them, each of which is capable of handling its own in CC against a wide array of units.

You still 4 OS units and plenty of firepower to back up the Beasts and light up their lines. Some static power and some mobile. While the Beasts move up, so can your Warriors. Ravagers and Trueborn can sit back and hold the back line.

As far as our "unfair advantage," our codex is one of the older ones. We dont have a plethora of top-tier units. We are handicapped in a way of the units we run because our good units, are... REALLY good. Some of our bad units are... REALLY bad. So of course our really good units will see more play and even with the edition changes, we will still run what is good, because well, its good! Yes our lists havent changed much through the editions (which is sad and is a bit boring at times) but I think it is a testament of how good and balanced our codex was to begin with.
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 19:11

Does the tantalus count? it's a heavy support not a dedicated transport
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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 19:56

Massive unit of 20 warriors toting either a pair of lances or a pair of cannons is actually surprisingly tricky to shift. Stick 'em with a haemy in a ruin and they've got a 4+ with FnP.

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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Jul 04 2014, 21:05

@Laughingcarp wrote:

Unorthodoxy, I'm not at all confident about 5x5 kabalites as the troop choices for this. With your 3 haemies, presumably one with each mandrake unit then one goes...?
But you present good arguments overall, though RAW I don't believe fortifications are allowed to be deployed outside your DZ anymore.

You can indeed put the fortifications in your HALF of the table.  Observe the main rule book illustration and explanations.

As for the Kabalites:  there are only 5-6 turns.  The enemy will be dealing with INFILTRATING Mandrakes, and the small units while important targets are a major waste of enemy shooting if concealed behind the Aegis.  Their attention may be equally distracted by the incoming Reavers who unfortunately plan to kill their vehicles.  You are saturating the enemey with pressing needs.  If there were just 2-3 troops, then yeah, kill the troops.  But EVERYTHING scores now.  So they can ill afford t oallow all that speed and maneuverability to do its thing.

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PostSubject: Re: List-Crafting challenge; No Transports!?   Fri Aug 01 2014, 00:29

Im with Unorthodoxy, we don't 'need' transports we take em cause their great. For many its the reason we picked up this army to begin with. Just like space marines are why you play marines. Its like asking your army to take the marines out.

Anyway I don't feel codex marines have any problem being competitive against mechanized DE but I do enjoy list construction challenges, so here's my take. I originally and accidentally built the list at 1850 where I play before I noticed the pt level. For reference I've included both versions.

DE De-mech 1850

HQ
asdrubael vect
haemonculus, power axe (wyches)
haemonculus, power axe (wyches)

ELITES
3 trueborn, 2 lances
3 trueborn, 2 lances
3 trueborn, 2 lances

TROOPS
12 wyches, hwg, trix- vb
12 wyches, hwg, trix- vb

FA
24 beasts, 4 bm, 20 khymera
5 scourges, 2 sc
5 scourges, 2 sc

HS
ravager
ravager
ravager

FT
aegis dl

TOTAL- 1849



And at 1500:

HQ
asdrubael vect

ELITES
3 trueborn, 2 lances
3 trueborn, 2 lances

TROOPS
10 wyches, hwg, trix- vb
5 warriors
5 warriors

FA
24 beasts, 4 bm, 20 khymera
5 scourges, 2 sc
5 scourges, 2 sc

HS
ravager
ravager
ravager

TOTAL- 1500


I feel this list really wants first turn so I built to get it. Basic plan is to alpha strike get first blood and deny slay. Present a scary durable midfield threat that will shred marines and threaten transports while drawing fire to help the other units durability/effectiveness. Scourges are very close to splinterborn while lanceborn are in the ballpark of ravagers in terms of cost/shot. I think its got the tools.

Whatever you settle on I would be interested in hearing how this thing plays out. Cheers.
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