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 Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 13:03

Wraithguard/blade/lords are also good to go for DE-lore now, with Path of the Archon. It introduced Castigators, who are basically modified versions of them, used by Vect.
A harlequin saw them and had a heart attack at the horror of them.
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 13:19

Well. Fluff wise there is precedent for example:

Heamonculus Coven assisting Iyanden because they found their forays into necromancy "amusing"

Some Craftworlds are very set in their ways, but they will not hesistate to acheive the end, no matter what the cost.

The Mymera Craftworld attacked an imperial world (Imperial Armour 11) and used Corsair allies to great extent to acheive their main objective of recovering the ShadowSpecter Aspect. Corsairs are very aggressive as well.

If you read the books The Path Of... by andy chambers you can also dive into their relationship a bit more. Its not unlike the DE to raid a maiden world and capture eldar cuisins as slaves (they actually really like to torture eldar) but they are all united by the fear of the "true death" and She Who Thirsts taking their souls. The Dark Kin are referred to as very close to the True Eldar Race just before the Fall, the Craftworlds are like Monks, in their floating monasteries (religious folk), corsairs are pirates and brigands, and the exodites are considered feral by eldar standards. Although their paths are all different, they are aware that they are one and the same.

I personally love the dynamic of the Eldar, Dark Eldar and Corsair trio of battle brothers.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 16:25

Mngwa wrote:
Wraithguard/blade/lords are also good to go for DE-lore now, with Path of the Archon. It introduced Castigators, who are basically modified versions of them, used by Vect.
A harlequin saw them and had a heart attack at the horror of them.

Dude, spoilers!  Laughing 

Do we not do that here?
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 17:07

There is one simple reason why Craftworld Nemirath has forged an alliance with the Wailing Doom corsairs - there's simply not enough of them. Despite them being dead-set to fight to their last breath against the enemies of their race, they could not do it for long, had they faced several major defeats in a short span of time. In order to prevent such a disaster happening, the Autarch council decided that it was best to look for someone to aid them, to bleed for them and to die for them. This they found in the Wailing Doom corsairs.

For a Dark Eldar corsair fleet terrorizing the Realspace, there is a vital need for a base of operations and resupplies. As the corsair fleet is one that has made many enemies in the Dark City and their defiance against Supreme Overlord Vect is nothing secret, they cannot rely on Commorragh-bound production too much. Therefore, a large craftworld with a low population serves well as a resupply point.

It is hardly a deal out of pleasure, as nearly any member of both forces would readily tell. But it is a necessary one for their mutual survival. The grim denizens of Nemirath need the savage, Khaine-worshipping corsairs, just as they need the direly-serious, aggressive craftworlders. It is the hatred of their enemies that ultimately forges the two rather different mentalities into a unified fighting force.



Also, the more treacherous part in my mind sees the Dark Eldar being somewhat fascinated by the fury that the normally cold and reserved craftworld Eldar display on the battlefield. It is this realization that their craftworld kin are just as savage and cruel deep down that gives them a grudging, never-to-be-spoken-aloud respect towards them - when they drop their pointless act, they are just as strong as anyone from Commorragh. Likewise, despite their outward vanity, the craftworlders see the Dark Kin for what they are - just as cursed, and perhaps even worse off than them, but driving forward all the same, crying out defiantly against the doomed fate of the Eldar race. This mutual grudging respect, never spoken aloud, is the reason why I feel they are perhaps even better suited to work together. They are two sides of the same coin, and cannot really survive without the other.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 17:20

Hm, when I remember correctly, there's a part in the eldar codex, claiming,
that the crystal cuddlers of the craftsworld Il Kaithe would ally themselves with the dark eldar.
Willingly, for the sake of, yeah, well, whatever...

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 18:37

Jimsolo wrote:
Mngwa wrote:
Wraithguard/blade/lords are also good to go for DE-lore now, with Path of the Archon. It introduced Castigators, who are basically modified versions of them, used by Vect.
A harlequin saw them and had a heart attack at the horror of them.

Dude, spoilers!   Laughing 

Do we not do that here?
Sorry!  Embarassed 

I was thinking of putting a warning there but I didn't see it too big!
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Tengu
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 08 2014, 18:50

Well, someones got to do the actual dying....
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Mon Jun 09 2014, 00:24

Lol, I had NO clue. I've been trying to pick up that series, but the first book is going for like $70 right now. So I think I'm just gonna wait for the omnibus.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Mon Jun 09 2014, 07:20

Blank05 wrote:


I'm paraphrasing, but the gist is that the Craftworld Eldar are on the brink of extinction and their only chance to survive is to enlist the aid of their Dark Kin. This is the probable reason that we are Battle Brothers, that the Eldar look to the ones they can trust, those that have the same goal- avoiding She Who Thirsts...


This while convenient reeks of a band-aid solutions. The DE eldar codex appears to have been great for the rule set it was using. Assault was big, no overwatch, wyches were amazing and so were most of our HQ choices. Does anyone take someone not a duke or a baron? Lelieth perhaps?

Changes happen and I get that, but rather than admit DE sort of got screwed here lets make some adjustments to the codex through FAQ or a PDF codex update. Instead they threw a shiny new $50 codex which offer all of the weaponry holes that are mysteriously present in our armies. "Here is the best fix! Combining armies. Allies. New models...WAVE SERPENTS--everything you can't find anywhere in your codex in a single vehicle!" And here i am like a sucker thinking that i picked up Dark Eldar to play dark eldar.

As a fan I feel let down. Others have said in other posts that long gone are the dirty tricks of the dark eldar.The interesting lists that are more complex than raider or venom spam are a thing of the past. Unless you bring along the goodie two shoes kin that can do everything you can do but better. and cheaper. and with models that don't look half as cool.

All this to say fluff wise or not, competitive list or not, psyker phase or not I fear we have lost ourselves to the Eldar codexes and have settled for that which is beneath the dark eldar. We have forgotten ourselves and are not even twinged to anger by the fact that the 2013 winner of the Vegas tournament spammed wave serpents and brought 6 DE allies--the barron and 5 kalibites--just to get the +1 to going first. Our army is better than that. But no one will know because we didn't demand better for ourselves than the codex of battle brother allies.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Tue Jun 10 2014, 23:30

I have been running Eldar allies for the best part of a year.

Fluffwise, I see them as a Corsair contingent of the Sky Serpents - everyone knows that all the cool kids, outcasts and those out for the lulz will be following the venerated Duke Sliscus.

Rulewise, I run a competitive list. The Farseer (who I see as a Void Dreamer - Sliscus operates away from Commorragh after all so why wouldn't he enlist a helmsman for his flotilla?) uses a jetbike and the Shard and goes with a beast unit, led by the Huntstress (a Baron counts as) to form the infamous deathstar.
I use two units of Windriders as they are simply put, amazing and should need little explanation.
Finally, I use a squadron of two Hornets who for 85pts each, are simply amazing.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Thu Jun 12 2014, 16:58

Seems like a slippery slope to me. Im all for having story driven reasons why the Eldar are working with our armies but in honesty they practically outclass us in every category. It seems like only a matter of time before adding an allied detachment becomes the primary detachment... with that said rather than go on a maniacal rant about the greatness of the eldar codex i decided to be a bit more constructive and start a Dark Eldar Codex Wishlist Forum with the hope that GW will get to updating quickly and if they are wise take some of their inspiration from us the fans/denizens of The Dark City.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Thu Jun 12 2014, 20:42

That's just the codex creep, really. Before their 6e dex, Eldar were outclassed in every way by Dark Eldar, and I liked the idea of an allied Eldar detachment for pure fluff reasons. Now the tables have turned, where it's the DE that are the more "fluffy" choice. Can't really do much about it but wait for the new codex. I mean, until the new codex, Warp Spiders were a sub-optimal, risky unit that I took simply because I loved their concept. Same went for Wraithlord, who kept falling asleep on his job.

Of course, some units stayed bad like Banshees... In the end, we don't really know what'll happen when GW gets around updating the Dark Kin. Some units will stay bad, other previously bad choices will become must have, while units that we used a ton will kind of fizzle out and be outclassed by new choices. That's just the way it is.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sun Jun 15 2014, 01:10

I think it's hilarious when people continue to say we're "the fast army". Codex creep is one thing, and I understand the need for power inflation, but they can do things to mitigate it and they really just don't seem to bother with it.

I've tried several times to convince myself of the necessity of bringing Eldar allies, and I see just how much they improve our competitiveness (with just about anything we could ally in), but I just can't bring myself to do it. I chose DE because they are hands down the best looking army, and I don't want to pervert that with those vanilla bikes and stupid smooth heads (even if I mod them, I know the truth).

The closest I've been able to come to pulling them into my army is Illic and his rangers, those units feel so much like they should be a part of our army, like they're Kheradruakh and the mandrakes re-imagined in shooty fashion. I started playing late last year, and in my research one of the things I really loved was the board manipulation that we got from the hidden nature of Big K and the 'drakes deployment tricks. I was so disappointed when I realized I was reading the wrong codex... Shocked

So, I really want something that gives some of that magic back. I can't convince myself to do it with CWE, but here's hoping our new codex will bring it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Tue Jun 17 2014, 23:39

An allied Corsair Prince can give you orbital strikes as well as one-turn Night Fighting. Corsair troops also come on jetbikes, with jetpacks, in falcons, and venoms too. They seem like a way for DE to enjoy more out of their nightvision
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Mon Jul 07 2014, 12:27

I was always interested in Iyanden, fluff-wise, before I was playing the game. Stated collecting Eldar figs and had a codex back in 3rd ed, before I formally started playing. Even then, after reading through my 4th ed Codex, I began building lists with an Iyanden/Cosair mix. Granted, this was because of Prince Yriel and the simple fact that they didn't have the numbers in the Craftworld population, and the influence from Raider tactics.

Going past that, with the introduction of battle brothers/allied detachments, and the fluff from the latest codex, it makes even more sense to expand on that. Desperation from needing more troops to field to a battle, combined with a basic need to protect their own 'species', regardless of misgivings. After all, the rest of them are just dumb cows, right? Who wants to be beaten by cows? Nuh-uh.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Wed Jul 23 2014, 22:05

I don't think we need to consort with Eldar.

The only reason to do so right now is if you want to maintain a competitive edge. Eldar is straight up a better book because of age. Our book was written for 5th Ed. rules, we're not 2 editions ahead and the book has not aged well at all.

If you're not playing a hyper competitive meta, I wouldn't bother with Eldar allies. However, they do bring extraordinary things to compliment our army.. mainly the solid scoring options in addition to our heavy lances. For example, right now I have a mixed of Raider gunboats with Wave Serpents for my selection. This gives you the opportunity to destroy light vehicles and troops, maintain high durability in the form of Wave Serpents, and the Raider gunboats can engage MCs/Infantry alike.

As for the psychic support, I think this completely depends on what you're facing in your meta. If your opponent is going to forcefully overpower you every turn with mass psykers (DoC, Grey Knights), why even bother? You might as well save the points and bring in the Autarch so you can gain +1 to your reserves every game.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 01:14

It's not just age tbh. They goofed hard on the Eldar codex and made it spectacularly over the top and it wouldn't be overly surprising to see it remain one of the stronger codices at the end of the current edition. Nor would I be surprised if Craftworld Eldar were still stronger than us after the update. It's not exactly a surprise that Dark Eldar generals looking to play very competitively either pick up big allied contingents, or just out and out desert.

It is partly age though. Maybe they'll get the update right.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 03:16

wanderingblade wrote:
It's not just age tbh. They goofed hard on the Eldar codex and made it spectacularly over the top and it wouldn't be overly surprising to see it remain one of the stronger codices at the end of the current edition. Nor would I be surprised if Craftworld Eldar were still stronger than us after the update. It's not exactly a surprise that Dark Eldar generals looking to play very competitively either pick up big allied contingents, or just out and out desert.

It is partly age though. Maybe they'll get the update right.

Eldar aren't that broken really, it's just that most every unit in the codex is good and well priced and there are a bunch of units in that codex! The only thing really broken are waveserpents and with the changes to jink they aren't that broken anymore, stupidly good, but not broken.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 05:36

If your codex has every unit that is good and well priced and other codex dont have that, its broken. They screwed up their in the Eldar-Tau phase of books and it has shown because the books since then havent been as obviously strong.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 07:06

I would argue that every unit in every codex should be good and well priced. Codexes like eldar and tau where almost every unit is worth taking and has great internal synergy should be the rule not the exception. Every codex should be equally good not equally bad.

A codex where most options aren't good or reasonably priced is "broken" quite literally. A codex where everything is useful and reasonably priced is far from it.

Edit: I also have to disagree with you when you say that codexes after tau and eldar were weaker. Marines have done very well in tournaments and orks haven't been out long enough to know how good they are but I can tell you they have some REALLY nasty builds buggy spam, green tide and bully boyz to name a few. Reading through the wolf dex they seem about as strong or stronger than eldar and tau. The only stinker was the nidz and even they are better than dark angels and chaos marines.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 09:15

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Eldar aren't that broken really, it's just that most every unit in the codex is good and well priced and there are a bunch of units in that codex! The only thing really broken are waveserpents and with the changes to jink they aren't that broken anymore, stupidly good, but not broken.

I was writing a list for a large (2k) battle a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself, "Yay! I can pick a big DE army and use some of the stuff I don't generally get a chance to use". So I made my list and I looked at it and I was quite happy with it. But then I realised that there was very little in the list that couldn't be replaced with cheaper, better equivalents from the Eldar codex and I felt very sad.  Sad 

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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 11:25

The blasterborn situation kills me the most since they're considered one of our best units. Compare them to Eldar though and we pay the same price for 4 blaster shots that they pay for 5 fusion guns with 3+ saves and that can run and then shoot (and even have melta bombs standard).

The only reason I bring Eldar really is for the anti-air though. I just don't feel comfortable with my ability to shoot down a flier or two without a crimson hunter on my side. If we get the razorwing pushed to a fast attack slot and maybe update it so it's even remotely close to what the crimson hunter can do against fliers than I doubt I'll ally anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 12:29

Count Adhemar wrote:
Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Eldar aren't that broken really, it's just that most every unit in the codex is good and well priced and there are a bunch of units in that codex! The only thing really broken are waveserpents and with the changes to jink they aren't that broken anymore, stupidly good, but not broken.

I was writing a list for a large (2k) battle a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself, "Yay! I can pick a big DE army and use some of the stuff I don't generally get a chance to use". So I made my list and I looked at it and I was quite happy with it. But then I realised that there was very little in the list that couldn't be replaced with cheaper, better equivalents from the Eldar codex and I felt very sad.  Sad 

The reason we have to consort with our lesser kin is contained in the above.

Unfortunately GW are absolutely, stupidly, ridiculously dumb when it comes to balancing armies that should be balanced... IE elder and dark elder.

Do not hold your breath waiting for this to change.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Fri Aug 15 2014, 17:24

It's power creep pure and simple. I heard similar complaints about the fourth edition elder codex and our fifth edition one. Hopefully the new DE codex will balance them out
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PostSubject: Re: Why Must we Consort With our Lesser Kin?   Sat Aug 16 2014, 03:44

Bibity is right when he says that every codex *should* have the same array of genuinely useful units and special rules as the Craftworld Eldar too. No argument from where I'm sitting. But since they don't, and virtually no other book does, I regard it as a goof in terms of internal balance in the line. There is close to no battlefield scenario for which they don't have an excellent unit, and while they can't field all of them at the same time, the versatility of a lot of the options means they get closer than a lot of armies.

Yes, there a lot of other strong armies - although I'm not sure I can agree with Bibity when it comes to Orks and Space Wolves - but Eldar are still top of the pile more or less. I don't think any of the books that came after Eldar got quite the same list as options. And I wouldn't bet on us doing so either.

But we'll definitely be closer. Expecting to be close when people go all out with an old codex when they conciously changed the power level between then and now is hoping in vain, all things being even.
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