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 Vehicles jinking blasts and templates

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Janzki
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PostSubject: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 07:27

*** Edit: ignore the reference to templates, they ignore cover  Embarassed  ***

Hi peeps!

First post and here it goes:

Let's imagine a situation early in the game. I've deployed all my vehicles without a flickerfield close to each other and one of them is targeted b a large blast (this should also apply for template weapons) which scatters and get 3 vehicles under it.

Am I reading the rules correctly here, that only the initial target of the blast is allowed a jink save?

Sorry, no page numbers since I'm using the ibook version of the rulebook.

“When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.”


Last edited by Janzki on Tue Jun 03 2014, 08:02; edited 1 time in total
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 07:39

Well... I think that is the best question I have seen in a long time. My assumption is that with templates they are being targetted when its laid down, so Templates are pretty easy. Templates would not scatter and you'd just say "hey since im under it, im targetted and im jinking".

IN the case of a blast thats really not cut and dry is it? The scatter could potentially hit someone not initially targetted. hmm...

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Janzki
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 07:52

My bad, template weapons ignore cover so jinking is not allowed there anyway.

But to make things even trickier in my head, is scatter roll equivalent to a to hit roll. So are those vehicles allowed a jink save at all?
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 12:39

I would say the scatter roll is equal to the to hit roll, as if your blast weapon is synchronised, then the scatter roll can be rerolled.

As far as the jink goes. I would suggest, that every vehicle under the blast is the target. If it then scatters onto another vehicle, if I understand RAW right, that will not get the chance to jink.

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Janzki
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 13:34

Ok, in the last game of 6th I faced Karamazov who scattered his orbital bombardments all over the place. I was able to jink those back then, but now, in 7th, if the resulting target after scattering is not one of the originals, no jink it seems.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 13:55

I'm not sure that any of the vehicles are allowed a Jink save as you do not roll to hit and Jink must be declared before any rolls to hit.

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Janzki
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 13:58

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure that any of the vehicles are allowed a Jink save as you do not roll to hit and Jink must be declared before any rolls to hit.

If this would be the case, the reaver jet bikes got the short end of the stick if hit by a blast.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 14:10

@Janzki wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure that any of the vehicles are allowed a Jink save as you do not roll to hit and Jink must be declared before any rolls to hit.

If this would be the case, the reaver jet bikes got the short end of the stick if hit by a blast.

I'd like to say I'm shocked at this apparent oversight by GW but, let's face it, it's kind of business as usual.

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Janzki
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 14:26

Indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 03 2014, 21:29

Yeah, oddly, anyone NOT under the initial template is not given the chance to jink. HA! It's a good catch.

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Wed Jun 11 2014, 14:45

Hopefully this gets fixed. Since they don't roll To Hit, RAW says nobody gets to jink. But if a scatter roll is a type of To Hit roll, you should be able to nominate "this guy (the target) and these guys (guys you're worried might get scattered onto) are jinking."
That'd represent the squad of jetbikes or whatever seeing a missile coming towards them haphazardly and taking evasive action just in case. You run the risk of having to snapshot next turn because of jinking a shot that might not hit you. It'd balance.

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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Wed Jun 11 2014, 16:42

While I can agree there is room for interpretation about if scattering or if other non-shooting attacks would allow a jink, I'm pretty sure a normal blast weapon would at least allow it from it's initial target to jink.

Jink is declared when the unit with the rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack. They make the reference about "before to hit rolls are made" yes, but I assume that is to give an example of how soon you must make the choice once you are targeted just for a little extra clarification. It does not state that it has to be "directly and immediately before to hit rolls" but when you are being targeted and before to hit rolls. I also assume scattering a weapon counts as a form of to hit rolls as 'roll to hit' is an actual shooting phase step not JUST something you actually do.

Additionally with the way shooting is laid out in steps, I would assume this might also give more "room" to make this jink choice possible as since you declare this when you are targeted it is before the enemy has picked the first weapon to fire from the unit.

So I think it would go something like:
Enemy picks a unit to fire -> Enemy picks a target to fire at -> You choose to jink or not -> Enemy picks a weapon to shoot with -> Resolve shooting with that weapon.

The other interpretation I think is that jink can be declared at any step after being declared as a target, but before any to hit rolls are made. Does this mean we can wait until the first weapon is chosen including what profile that weapon is firing on should it have more than one?

Now hopefully this next point isn't considered off topic as I think it still pertains to the overall "what allows jink/when it happens" but I do have a question to bring up of what about enemy units with activated abilities when they fire? First example I think would be markerlight tokens. They state that "immediatly before a unit shoots at a target" they can be used. If my first example is true that jink is declared directly after being targeted would this now be at the "select a weapon" step, and therefor jink must be declared before markerlights are used? Or if my second example is correct would we be able to wait until right before any shots are actually fired, waiting to see if things like markerlights are used?

Thoughts?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Wed Jun 11 2014, 16:47

The exact wording for markerlights is:

Quote :
Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below.

The rules for Jink are:

Quote :
When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made

From the use of the word 'immediately' I would say the order of operations has to be that the Tau player declares he is targeting your unit, you declare whether you are Jinking and then the Tau player declares he is using markerlight counters.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 00:15

clearly...people...clearly the initial targets underneath is targetted. But as for anyone NOT targetted... I'd say they are on their own.

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 01:30

Well.... I doubt GW will FAQ this as it is a little convoluted. I could see them saying, no the vehicles scattered upon don't get a jink. And it makes sense fluff wise. The dudes being targeted are bracing for impact while the others are unaware of the situation. HOWEVER, this problem is easily mitigated with making sure your vehicle is covered up 25%. We need to make use of terrain now more than ever.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 01:45

well of course. That was always the case. People just dont want to HAVE to. Lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 02:13

Lol true. Unfortunately our army's age is showing. We're kinda being updated into a corner. SO!!! I feel, my approach, will pretty much be the 5th rhino rush. Just push everything forward as fast as possible. And that works with using terrain. Shooting is just so hard to do with jink now. We already only wounded a statistic of 4 wounds on a venom anyway. Now with jink I think it's like 1-2. My dice roll are horrible enough as it is. CC is the new black IMHO

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 09:07

@doomseer11b wrote:
We already only wounded a statistic of 4 wounds on a venom anyway.  Now with jink I think it's like 1-2.

1 wound on average for a jinking Venom and that's before any armour saves. Sucks big time!

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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 11:22

Flickerfields really negate a great deal of the woe from this whole shebang.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Thu Jun 12 2014, 17:27

@MyNameDidntFit wrote:
Flickerfields really negate a great deal of the woe from this whole shebang.

agree.

if you don't like the snap shot, use your flicker field. same save you had in 6th ed. so no negative to the game from that pov.

for ravagers and raiders, it just means they now cost 10 pts more if you want to buy that flickerfield. In 5th ed. I often did buy them anyway, so it just brings their point cost back up.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles jinking blasts and templates   Tue Jun 24 2014, 18:14

I think it comes down to what's shooting at you, and who's riding.

If it's some ork ladz with a bunch of shootas that will probably miss and might glance, chance it on the flickerfield. A devastator with a lascannon, get dodging.

Likewise if you've got trueborns in there or a wych queen squad, don't let them blow up! But a SF archon on a roadtrip with his incubi can handle it, as long as they're anywhere near something they can chop up, or a bit of cover.

EDIT: Oop, that was a bit off topic. Just my £0.02 on flickerfields.

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