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 Shadowfield and FnP

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DarkCycu
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Tue Jun 03 2014, 20:29

Unfortunately for us SF brakes down on 1, whether we lost the wound or not. Its rule has the priority here, yet it would be awesome to "save" SF from shorting out.
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Thu Jun 05 2014, 11:49

If you fail the shadow field save it is broken as clearly written in our codex.

The FNP has no effect on the field just means you don't take a wound.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Thu Jun 05 2014, 21:22

Dragontree's explanation just totally clarified it for me.

I agree. Shadowfield still busted!
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Axel115
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Thu Jun 05 2014, 21:33

i dunno about the meta where you are all at, but i never get a chance to use FNP....my opponents spam a bunch of assault cannons or Scatter lasers at my archon and gets insta-gibbed the second i fail the Shadowfield. Sad
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Jun 06 2014, 00:36

Chiming in too late, but yeah rolling a "1" means shadowfield is done regardless of FnP.

But I'm with Axel115; a single failed save is a dead Archon.

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 21:57

This is an old topic, sure, but with the new codex myself and my most common opponent (Blood Angels) think that rules as written it is completely black and white that a made FnP means the Shadowfield doesn't fail. Didn't see a search result come up addressing this since the new codex came out so my apologies if I missed it...

FnP - ...treat the Wound as having been saved...

Shadowfield - ...is lost at the end of any phase in which the model suffers one or more unsaved Wounds.

So you treat the wound as saved and you haven't suffered a wound so Shadowfield is still intact.

Is this the case and does anyone see this as not the case and what is your interpretation if so?
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:04

A similar question comes up with Necron players when it comes to wounds caused by Scarabs and Entropic Strike.

It's not in the current FAQs but I'm looking for my old 6th ed ones which I think talks about "when suffers an unsaved wound" but is saved by FNP. I think it was covered back in the day (just not brought forward into 7th) but I could be thinking that is still just one of the long list of questions that never get answered.

Ultimately - talk it over with your opponent after the fact and worst case scenario roll off or accept a 3rd party's ruling.
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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:30

How in the world is this topic still open to debate.... You fail the SF save & the SF goes down, You take the wound... (STOP and re-read what I just typed)... Unsaved wound triggers Feel No Pain, you make the your Feel No Pain and remove the wound from the Model.   At which point are people confused, the only reason I can think for them to include the rest of the bit in FnP is for melee combat results.  Also a Codex rules comes before the BRB, meaning that the SF is done son, end of story.

Also agreeing with LaughingCarp again, whenever my Archon fails his SF I just kinda sign and take him off the table... Feel No Pain kinda feels useless in this army like 70% of the time.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:34

@MurDok wrote:
How in the world is this topic still open to debate.... You fail the SF save & the SF goes down, You take the wound... (STOP and re-read what I just typed)... Unsaved wound triggers Feel No Pain, you make the your Feel No Pain and remove the wound from the Model.   At which point are people confused, the only reason I can think for them to include the rest of the bit in FnP is for melee combat results.
Well, first off, this is a new conversation from an old discussion.

The thing is - the new wording of the Shadowfield suggests this works. The Shadowfield does *not* go down when you take an unsaved wound. It goes down at the end of the phase when you have taken an unsaved wound.

According to FNP it treats the wound 'as if it never happened' if successfully passed.
If it never happened, you never took it and thus there is no reason for the Shadowfield to go away.

That makes sense to me.

@MurDok wrote:
Also a Codex rules comes before the BRB, meaning that the SF is done son, end of story.
There is no conflict between the rules to have that rule take effect, the question isn't what The Shadowfield does or FNP does - the question is about how they interact. Neither of them effects the other in a contradictory way.

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:41

@Thor665 wrote:
@MurDok wrote:
How in the world is this topic still open to debate.... You fail the SF save & the SF goes down, You take the wound... (STOP and re-read what I just typed)... Unsaved wound triggers Feel No Pain, you make the your Feel No Pain and remove the wound from the Model.   At which point are people confused, the only reason I can think for them to include the rest of the bit in FnP is for melee combat results.
Well, first off, this is a new conversation from an old discussion.

The thing is - the new wording of the Shadowfield suggests this works. The Shadowfield does *not* go down when you take an unsaved wound. It goes down at the end of the phase when you have taken an unsaved wound.

According to FNP it treats the wound 'as if it never happened' if successfully passed.
If it never happened, you never took it and thus there is no reason for the Shadowfield to go away.

That makes sense to me.

@MurDok wrote:
Also a Codex rules comes before the BRB, meaning that the SF is done son, end of story.
There is no conflict between the rules to have that rule take effect, the question isn't what The Shadowfield does or FNP does - the question is about how they interact. Neither of them effects the other in a contradictory way.

Exactly why I have asked again with the new Codex. This isn't 6th edition with the old Codex any longer. Old Codex there was no question it failed despite the FnP roll. This codex if you read as written I read it as it never fails because as written the Shadowfield fails at the end of a phase where you take an unsaved wound AND FnP says if you make the save you treat the wound as if it were saved.

That to me says that it works in 7th combined with the new Codex. The old Shadowfield in 7th rules it would still fail and obviously failed in 6th ... but the new codex with the wording of FnP in 7th I think that all changes as I read it.
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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:47

This is similar to the argument of "Counts as moved" deep strike argument. I see it like this FnP specifically says "(this is not a saving throw and so can be used...)" then in the third paragraph "On a +5 the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as being saved"

It was an unsaved wound cause you didn't save against the initial wound, instead a USR discounted it and for game state matter it was treated as being saved (even though it was still an unsaved wound,(again I believe it was added to clarify the winner in assault))

But once again thanks to GW's vague writing style it'll boil down to a "roll off" (god that always sounds cheesy) if the opponent disagrees.

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:53

@MurDok wrote:
This is similar to the argument of "Counts as moved" deep strike argument.  I see it like this FnP specifically says "(this is not a saving throw and so can be used...)" then in the third paragraph "On a +5 the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as being saved"

It was an unsaved wound cause you didn't save against the initial wound, instead a USR discounted it and for game state matter it was treated as being saved (even though it was still an unsaved wound,(again I believe it was added to clarify the winner in assault))

But once again thanks to GW's vague writing style it'll boil down to a "roll off" (god that always sounds cheesy) if the opponent disagrees.

The writing is why this is being asked again and why it is a different question than it used to be.  In 6th it was obvious as the field stated "if the save is ever failed the field is destroyed".  That's pretty clear cut that a 1 destroys it.  Now it states "at the end of a phase where you suffer an unsaved wound" but because of the FnP you didn't suffer any wounds........ (though not because you made a "save" as FnP isn't a save ... but still you didn't suffer a wound)

My gaming group seems to see this as black and white that it does not fail with the way the two rules are written now. I just wanted to know if that is how others interpreted it now as well.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 22:56

I agree

Under the old dex, I'm 100% on the page of the shadowfield was gone even if you passed FNP.

Under the new dex, the different wording changes the meaning.

The addition of the "at the end of the phase" as innocuous as it may sound, does change the RAW.   You roll your FnP before the end of the phase.  Therefore as of the end of the phase, you have not suffered an unsaved wound.

a small change in wording, but I believe that the intention was indeed to only mean you lost the field if you were actually wounded.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 23:34

@Silverglade wrote:
I agree

Under the old dex, I'm 100% on the page of the shadowfield was gone even if you passed FNP.

Under the new dex, the different wording changes the meaning.

The addition of the "at the end of the phase" as innocuous as it may sound, does change the RAW.   You roll your FnP before the end of the phase.  Therefore as of the end of the phase, you have not suffered an unsaved wound.

a small change in wording, but I believe that the intention was indeed to only mean you lost the field if you were actually wounded.
I basically agree with this.

Even moreso - it was assuredly a word change to allow you to keep making Shadowfield saves even after failing one - which is already a massive mental jump away from what it used to be.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Fri Nov 07 2014, 23:43

Well I think that the rules speak plainly. You do not "suffer" an unsaved wound if your FNP saves it. It explicitly states that you should treat any "unsaved wound" saved by FNP as "saved wound". I understand how some people might see this as trying to get some kind of unfair advantage, but in my opinion this is the RAW and treating it in any other way breaks the rules. It does not matter how logical it sounds that it should in no logical way be bound to wearer's resistance to pain. RAW is LAW. Period. We cannot indulge in speculations and make it a rule or ruling.

In addition, the SF is bloody expensive and should be worth it. :-)

If it is not already there, I would add it to FAQs though.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Sun Nov 09 2014, 00:51

@MurDok wrote:
This is similar to the argument of "Counts as moved" deep strike argument.  I see it like this FnP specifically says "(this is not a saving throw and so can be used...)" then in the third paragraph "On a +5 the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as being saved"

It was an unsaved wound cause you didn't save against the initial wound, instead a USR discounted it and for game state matter it was treated as being saved (even though it was still an unsaved wound,(again I believe it was added to clarify the winner in assault))

But once again thanks to GW's vague writing style it'll boil down to a "roll off" (god that always sounds cheesy) if the opponent disagrees.

If this is true, Feel No Pain is useless, as I reduce my Wounds total if I take an unsaved Wound. By your logic, if passing a Feel No Pain test still counts as taking an unsaved Wound, then I still lose the Wound. Either it's entirely disregarded, or it's not. If I pass Feel No Pain, we disregard the unsaved Wound as ever having happened, therefore I did not take an unsaved Wound, therefore the Shadowfield continues to work.

You even state yourself, the rule states "treat it as being saved", therefore, it is not an unsaved wound, at the end of the phase.

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Izathel
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Sun Nov 09 2014, 01:58

You don't disregard it having happened. You treat it at having been saved. Therefore, by the end of the phase, there are no unsaved wounds. I agree with your conclusion simply not the presentation.

People that disagree are running on a colloquial or 5E understanding of the Shadowfield rules. It doesn't drop when a save is failed. It drops at the end of the phase where you have taken unsaved wounds. FnP means you treat the save as passed - therefore there are no unsaved wounds. If Shadowfield dropped when you failed a save, that would be a different story, but it doesn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 08:46

I was firmly in the "it drops when you fail a save" camp, but if that's the way it's worded, then I would agree Izathel

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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 09:04

I mean the SF doesn't say, lose it on a failed save. Says lose it at the end of any phase where you suffered a wound. You don't check to see if the SF broke until the end of the phase and at the end of the phase if you still have all your wounds than you have not taken a wound and thus the SF does not go away.

The rules don't care about what happened while you were rolling dice (in this case making saves) the rules for SF care about wounds taken or not taken during the phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 19:20

Indeed, I'd say passing a FnP makes you not suffer a wound, therefore you don't lose the save

Djin blade however can cost you the SF without actually rolling an inv save(doesn't allow that iirc)

so it's a tradeoff really

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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 19:29

Well - it's not really, since the Djinn Blade is a hideously pathetic weapon choice so should never be taken Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 22:54

I second that Thor! Though I do know someone that's thinking about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadowfield and FnP   Mon Nov 10 2014, 23:21

We can make the mon'keigh believe it though: "Nah mate, new shadowfield isn't OP, look I need to trade off the chance to take this totally awesome relic" Cool

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