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 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 20:09

@Devilogical wrote:
Shredder said somewhere here "we are glass-water-pistol army".
Well, he, probably, correct. Glass-water-pistol... without water in it. New redaction dissapointing me so far... Hope new dex will be here soon.

I did indeed say that. I was hoping it would feel less accurate come 7th.

Nope...

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Okay, I did kind of skim, but did I seriously just read there is no area terrain?

Did I also read templates hit units in open topped vehicles?

No changes to ignore cover?

FML what's the point in even playing this army? I have two friends that run multiple furiosos with two template weapons a piece. Another that puts four flamers in drop pods.

I don't care about the heldrake, I can't hide in my boat, I can't hide in cover, I may as well just line all my troops up in a close order formation like it's the 17th century and just exchange volleys until I'm dead.

Also, our boats explode 16% less of the time. Yeah, that's better than it was, but our boats are still death traps. I may be jumping the gun here, but I'm not seeing a glass cannon. I'm seeing a glass glassy thing held together by a glue stick and scotch tape, being held by a toddler throwing a tantrum.

I have to say, reading the changes I've been thinking exactly the same.

But then, I'm not exactly of an optimistic persuasion.  tongue 

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Let's not exaggerate. Our codex has been out of date since 6th edition began; we've been arguing about that for over a year now, and I think a lot of us are finally catching on to how out of date it is, but it's still a pretty good codex, just a little frayed at the edges, worn out in places, somewhat bleached out, a hole here and there...

It was a good codex. Now... it has some nice fluff. That's about it. Oh, and we can ally with Eldar - but then I might as well just play an Eldar army and paint them emo colours.

Hell, I think even our stuff that was once considered OP now barely holds up as average.

In any case, the fact that we're an older codex still doesn't justify additional, unnecessary nerfs to our army. It's like saying "Hmm, that guy has fallen in the mud; so I may as well stamp on his face a bit while he's down."

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Yeah, but that's pretty much how it was yesterday. It's not as if hiding in a transport made you safe. If the heldrake didn't explode it with its D3+1 vector strike, something else would. It's actually a little bit better now, because the heldrake only gets one shot at the raider with its vector strike, and even D6 hits on the passengers is better than the number that usually die in an explosion. It's still terribly overpowered against us, but maybe a little bit less so.

Here's the thing though - why was this change necessary? Which open-topped transports were dominating the game to the extent that this rule needed to be implemented?

See, to me, it just feels like a slap in the face from GW. There was literally no reason why this rule needed to exist - especially in an edition that's little more than a glorified errata. It's just a kick in the balls for an army that was already struggling.
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 21:19

@Sky Serpent wrote:

7th Changes - Cons:


  • No explosion craters, when a vehicle explodes now it no longer leaves a handy crater for your Warriors to shelter in or make use of.

I design and cast my own spore pods, and a year later they get nerfed out of existence with the new ‘Nid 'dex Sad

I design and cast my own wreck craters, and a year later they get nerfed out of existence with the new BRB Sad

Maybe my next project should be designing and casting a Helldrake or a Riptide – problem solved Very Happy

I'm going to wait until I have read the whole book before I start gnashing teeth over this template change. There may be a counter-balance to it elsewhere, or we may get something for it with our new codex later in the year. It is such an obvious hit on a fragile army like ours, and Orks, I'm thinking there's a flip-side coming somewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 21:28

@The Shredder wrote:

It was a good codex. Now... it has some nice fluff. That's about it.

Ah, come on! It's weird for me to be the one saying that things aren't that bad, but really, things aren't that bad Smile.

@The Shredder wrote:

Here's the thing though - why was this change necessary? Which open-topped transports were dominating the game to the extent that this rule needed to be implemented?

My guess? They've been testing the new orks, which are rumoured to be next up, and orks in trukks were somehow wreaking way too much havoc. So rather than tone orks down, they made this change to balance them out, to which someone said, 'But wait! What about the Dark Eldar?' and someone else answered, 'The who?' and they all had a good laugh, and then someone else, a tweedy-looking wise old fellow, took a puff from a briar pipe (hopefully filled with tobacco, and not something else), and said, 'We will make it up to them in due time, when their Codex comes out later this year, and it will be so fantastic that even the most cynical among them will never find any cause to complain about ever again!'

But that's just my guess. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 21:40

@Barking Agatha wrote:

My guess? They've been testing the new orks, which are rumoured to be next up, and orks in trukks were somehow wreaking way too much havoc. So rather than tone orks down, they made this change to balance them out

That's an interesting possibility, actually.

I guess we'll have a better idea when the new ork codex comes out.

Although, I'll admit that I'm dubious because the implication is that GW actually playtests some of their rules.  Rolling Eyes 

@Barking Agatha wrote:
to which someone said, 'But wait! What about the Dark Eldar?' and someone else answered, 'The who?' and they all had a good laugh, and then someone else, a tweedy-looking wise old fellow, took a puff from a briar pipe (hopefully filled with tobacco, and not something else), and said, 'We will make it up to them in due time, when their Codex comes out later this year, and it will be so fantastic that even the most cynical among them will never find any cause to complain about ever again!'

I humbly accept that challenge.  Laughing 

In any case, I eagerly await our new codex.
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 21:43

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:

It was a good codex. Now... it has some nice fluff. That's about it.

Ah, come on! It's weird for me to be the one saying that things aren't that bad, but really, things aren't that bad Smile.

@The Shredder wrote:

Here's the thing though - why was this change necessary? Which open-topped transports were dominating the game to the extent that this rule needed to be implemented?

My guess? They've been testing the new orks, which are rumoured to be next up, and orks in trukks were somehow wreaking way too much havoc. So rather than tone orks down, they made this change to balance them out, to which someone said, 'But wait! What about the Dark Eldar?' and someone else answered, 'The who?' and they all had a good laugh, and then someone else, a tweedy-looking wise old fellow, took a puff from a briar pipe (hopefully filled with tobacco, and not something else), and said, 'We will make it up to them in due time, when their Codex comes out later this year, and it will be so fantastic that even the most cynical among them will never find any cause to complain about ever again!'

But that's just my guess. Smile

The reason I'm all "the sky is falling" is because I used to hug area terrain, now there seems little point. Now if my boats explode, the few troops that survive are right out in the open. I face furioso's often, as stated earlier, and that means if one drop pods next to a venom they will average 7 hits on the passengers. I acknowledged along with you that our codex was out of date, if workable, however in my opinion we're now even more fragile with even less bite.

Now that everything is scoring though I see our best bet as taking an almost completely mechanized list. Our units will be more an excuse to unlock our 4+/5++ AV10 scoring units that can move 32"-42" a turn. Ah well, maybe that's fluffier in a way. I imagine DT won't stay scoring for long as I can see people just dropping empty drop pods on objectives. Haha.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 22:12

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

The reason I'm all "the sky is falling" is because I used to hug area terrain, now there seems little point. Now if my boats explode, the few troops that survive are right out in the open. I face furioso's often, as stated earlier, and that means if one drop pods next to a venom they will average 7 hits on the passengers.

But you can leave them all in reserves now if you want to, so if your opponent has a lot of drop pods, just deploy only the things that won't be too bothered about flamers (ravagers, grotesques, talos, and so on) and when your reserves arrive you'll get a shot at the furry oh-sos before they get a shot at you.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 22:23

@Barking Agatha wrote:

Ah, come on! It's weird for me to be the one saying that things aren't that bad, but really, things aren't that bad Smile.
Who are you and what have you done with our favourite pessimistic wych?

@Barking Agatha wrote:

My guess? They've been testing
Heh, hahah. Funny.

@Barking Agatha wrote:

'We will make it up to them in due time, when their Codex comes out later this year, and it will be so fantastic that even the most cynical among them will never find any cause to complain about ever again!'
Okay, seriously, what have you done with Aggy?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 22:30

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Now that everything is scoring though I see our best bet as taking an almost completely mechanized list. Our units will be more an excuse to unlock our 4+/5++ AV10 scoring units that can move 32"-42" a turn.

I wonder if many pure DE lists will end up looking like Stelek's 5th edition lists - i.e. the only troops are squads of 3 Wracks in venoms or raiders.

It's sad, because that's not how I'd like to play (I like warrior units shooting from raiders - if only for the image). But, I'm just seeing fewer and fewer reasons to take other troops.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 23:27

I thought 7ed was looking ok until I saw that part about templates hitting passengers Sad

I'd like to express exactly how I feel about it, but I can't do it without breaking forum rules on language.

Plus, with only the odd liquifier in the army, we can't even take advantage of barbecuing dudes in chimeras that shot out the hatch!

Do flickerfield saves transfer to the passengers? Throw me a bone here... Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 02:38

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I thought 7ed was looking ok until I saw that part about templates hitting passengers Sad

I'd like to express exactly how I feel about it, but I can't do it without breaking forum rules on language.

Plus, with only the odd liquifier in the army, we can't even take advantage of barbecuing dudes in chimeras that shot out the hatch!

Do flickerfield saves transfer to the passengers? Throw me a bone here... Surprised

Unless there's an errata, I think we're thoroughly boned on that one. Flickerfield is only stated to give a 5+ invulnerable to the vehicle.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 03:18

I think ill chime in here.

I like the changes. I think it will take time to get used to them. I feel that our army dynamic just got REALLY strong. Super fast... and many units FTW. Raiders and venoms score?!?!?!?! The malestrom of war objectives state that they must be acheived at the end of the turn. Get the objective that states you need to get into your opponents deployment zone? Soom 3 raiders up to get D3 vps... need to score objective #4 ? In your opponents deployment zone? Zoom a raider up to it to score it at the end of your turn. LOL. this is great. TBH i also like that the changes to flamers force us to be careful. After all, that does make sense... just spread out vertically in a ruin. Many ways to mitigate the so called "nerfs".

Remain positive. With playtesting, we will find that our army is stronger that it was in 6th. And WHAT? Battle brothers can now come for rides with us in out transports? AND abilities transfer? You are talking about modifications to reserve rolls from autarchs... who can ride in raiders... farseers being able to run with the kabalites or wyches in raiders or venoms... this is awesome.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 03:25

Well on the plus side it doesn't look like flamers can be fired in overwatch anymore... It says only weapons that can be snap fired and flamers can't... unless I'm missing something..
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 03:27

Ok, here is a list of things that just jumped out at me after reading the rulebook.

1. Psychers in buildings cannot cast blessings. Same as if they were in transports.

2. You cannot snapshoot templates, but you can overwatch them. go figure.

3. You can charge units you cannot hurt.

4. You must take the best avaialble save. Hope that would change this edition to protect our shadowfields.

5. Monstrous creatures can no longer go to ground! I hated that last edition

6. Vehicle explosions are str 4- INSIDE AND OUT! This will really hurt our wych haywire delivery systems.

7. This one sucks BIG TIME! Wounds from exploding vehicles are now allocated randomly. No more protecting our blasters!

8. You can deny a challenge even if there is only 1 other model in the unit. Maybe this is not a change, but I never knew that. for some reason I thought there had to be 5.

9. Flyers and Flying monstrous creatures ARE NOT SCORING. If they want to control or contest, they have to get close to the ground, and therefore can be shot.

10. Your entire army can be held in reserve.

11. A HQ with infiltrate confers it on a unit, but not vice versa. So haemis cannot infiltrate with mandrakes, but Khandras can infiltrate with grotesques.


If I misread or missed something, please let me know, but from what I saw, the above is correct.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 03:31

disorderly charges seem like they are easier to pull off too..
Too bad about flamer overwatch..

If I'm reading this right then there is no more 2+ look out sir for independent characters, just a flat 4+ like with characters.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 03:58

I thought so to, but in the black box section on independent characters they said 2+ look out sir, so that is the same.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 04:32

@Skulnbonz wrote:

6. Vehicle explosions are str 4- INSIDE AND OUT! This will really hurt our wych haywire delivery systems.
Passengers already suffered Str4 hits when the transport exploded, so that doesn't affect our wyches any more than before. The extra 1 str may be a deterrent for others using short-range weapons on our vehicles though.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 05:40

Ive played some games using all the rules we currently know. I also altered my usual list slightly to include only 2 warrior units and 1 EJB unit for troops. Thats it, the rest was killyness. My skimmers still died to massed S7 fire but choosing to jink was as useful as 4++ cover saves usually are when faced with destruction otherwise.. 

Didnt have one explodes this game out of 10 tanks/skimmers total destroyed (5 were mine). They all withered away and remained as wreckage. Only had one the game previous out of around 6-7 wrecked chassis. I faced a lot of ap 3 or worse though so makes sense. Only select ap 2 weaponry.

I used 3x3 splinterborn in venoms they were even better than before especially since their rides never blew up so they just hunkered down behind the wreckage and poured firepower at 36".

New warlord traits were ok, not as good as conqueror of cities but rerolling 1s to hit with a beastpack is nice.. conferred it to my wraithknight a couple turns. 

No area terrain was a little strange but mostly I think it improves xenos assault units without grenades which will then only come into effect if charging into ruins/forests iirc. 

Being able to park an empty venom on homebase proved useful. Potentially game winning but in this instance I had it wrapped up without the help. Still it was a redundancy I didnt have previously. 

Overall im struggling to see why I would really want to include more than min troops in a fragile shooty army like DE. Marines sure. Us not so much IMO. Im also thinking mechanized infantry is back in a big BIG WAY. I shudder to think what lists will look like 2 weeks from now honestly.

I dont recall too many differences compared to 6th edition games ive played since beasts dont suffer for charging through terrain, I had PGL, my only challenge was with baron who did squat I didnt take or face a psyker etc etc. Was pretty enjoyable overall though, as usual.

I should add jink isnt as detrimental as you would think. Its like gone to ground of the mech world. Only do it if its necessary. If your considering jinking then the chances are high you will be destroyed anyway or supressed since the chart forces snapshots on 1-4 anyway. Also taking Ld tests to avoid snapshots on embarked units is nice. I'll ad more if I think of it.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 06:56

Quote :
Defensive grenades can be throw as S1 Blind Blast weapons. They don't give Stealth at close range.

A little bone for our Wyches to reduce overwatch. And hellions.

Poison got nerfed, only reroll when Strengh is higher then opponent toughness. That only affect Wracks.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 07:25

Can someone tell me - what happened with hayware? What glance now do? If it`s not removing HP - we are returning to 5th? (no pls no, no pls no...)

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 07:57

Haywire stays the same.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 08:45

@Azdrubael wrote:
Haywire stays the same.

I know. But what happened to glancing hits?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 08:55

Nothing. Glances remain unchanged, pens remain unchanged. Only the damage table has changed.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 09:07

But someone here says that glancing hits do not remove HP anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 10:20

Quote :
Defensive grenades can be throw as S1 Blind Blast weapons. They don't give Stealth at close range.

Love that change. Shame tau suits are immune to blind. Still goo though.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Sat May 24 2014, 10:28

Quote :
Love that change. Shame tau suits are immune to blind. Still goo though.
Aye - if Blind is still the same that is a really nice first turn of assault. More hits on enemy, and good defense for us. Really good way to have good combat result.

I think Orks will be primary targets of that. Fire warriors and necrons also looks pretty sweet.

2 full phases with enemy fighting at WS1. Thats really serious.

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