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 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:33

@Mushkilla wrote:
Still don't get all the complaints in this thread. We got massive buffs:

4+ jink without moving, and when going second, sure the raider has to fire at BS1 next turn, but the passengers still get to fire at full ballistic skill (3+ with night fight).

Our transports are now scoring and objective secure denial units.

All our units are scoring (e.g reavers and talos).

Fantastic strategic/command warlord traits that we get to re-roll on.

All our transports became more resilient and are less likely to explode.

Better deployment and objective rules.

We can keep more that 50% of our army in reserve.

Deepstriking vehicles only count as moving at combat speed (so passengers can fire at full ballistic skill).


I cannot even begin to state how strong these changes make us.

Id like to add...

We can swap transports with eldar.

Missions cards were made for fast, shooty armies.

DE are much stronger now than in 5th or 6th!
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:00

if we are stronger in 7th than the last 2 editions I should win every event this year! I never had a problem in 5th or 6th...

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:20

I've only played one game of 7th so far, but I'm enjoying it. Dark Eldar seem to be the second best army in the game for Maelstrom of War missions, behind regular Eldar thanks to their psychic potential and Objective Secured jetbikes.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:44

@Painjunky wrote:

Id like to add...

Missions cards were made for fast, shooty armies.

While i agree here that we are in slightly better shape than we may have been in 6th edition your comment about mission cards being made for fast shooty armies may be a little premature depending on meta. What is to stop the Imperium of man from say spamming 11 drop pods and dropping the first 6 that drop on turn one on each of the objectives? Yes our raiders, venoms, and ravagers are all scoring units but so are everyone elses. and with a drop pod sitting on a each objective we now need to focus firepower that would otherwise be directed at dangerous vehicles and terminators at drop pods just to clear off the objectives. I wouldnt be surprised if we start seeing a lot of drop pods from all the SM armies that have them.
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:49

Are mission cards used in eternal war? If not I feel like that "benefit" is a moot point. It's like saying we have the best unbound army. It's a cool tip of the hat, but if you won't generally use it in normal competitive play, it's hardly a bonus. Kind of like we have a revenant titan, so in theory we should win everything forever.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:59

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Without night fighting and just the 4+ jink:
6 melta shots: 2 hull points 73.6% chance of explosion
6 lascannon shots 2 hull points 48% chance of explosion

Are you sure about your math on this one?

Assuming melta range, I make the odds of 6 meltaguns exploding a venom to be 97%.

Also, a more minor discrepancy, but I get 44% for one of those 6 lascannons to explode it.

In addition, are you calculating the odds of exploding separate to hull points? Because, surely destroying it is all that matters? (i.e. the number of shots required should reflect the odds of exploding the venom PLUS the odds of destroying it via hull points).


Regardless, you might still be right regarding the 3+ save - at the very least, it does make more difference than I thought.


Your math on the Meltguns at 97%, are you taking Flickerfields into account? That seems far too high to be considering a 1/3 chance of ingoring the hit.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 14:15

@Squidmaster wrote:
Your math on the Meltguns at 97%, are you taking Flickerfields into account? That seems far too high to be considering a 1/3 chance of ingoring the hit.

No, because flickerfields don't stack with the 4+ jink save (which I did take into account).

If you wish to see my math:

6 (number of shots) x 2/3 (chance to hit) x 35/36 (anything but double-1s penetrates) x 1/2 (jink save) x 1/2 (chance to explode, factoring in Open Topped and AP1) = 0.97%

If you can see any obvious mistakes, feel free to correct me.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 14:22

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Are mission cards used in eternal war?

Eternal War is the same as it had been. If one wants to play eternal war and other maelstorm, you even have to roll-off which to play!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 15:18

@The Shredder wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
Your math on the Meltguns at 97%, are you taking Flickerfields into account? That seems far too high to be considering a 1/3 chance of ingoring the hit.

No, because flickerfields don't stack with the 4+ jink save (which I did take into account).

If you wish to see my math:

6 (number of shots) x 2/3 (chance to hit) x 35/36 (anything but double-1s penetrates) x 1/2 (jink save) x 1/2 (chance to explode, factoring in Open Topped and AP1) = 0.97%

If you can see any obvious mistakes, feel free to correct me.

Explode results aren't cumulative? It's a separate roll from your wound formula. You didn't calculate 97% but .97 hullpoints stripped. It either explodes or it doesn't. It wouldn't be 1.9*1/2, but more like 1/2+1/2*1/2. So little under 75%. Since it's not EXACTLY two penetrating hits. I admit though, my math is usually sloppy and wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 15:21

@Mngwa wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Are mission cards used in eternal war?

Eternal War is the same as it had been. If one wants to play eternal war and other maelstorm, you even have to roll-off which to play!

Too bad. I`ve wondering how objectives would work in Eternal war missions  Sad 

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 15:30

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Explode results aren't cumulative? It's a separate roll from your wound formula. You didn't calculate 97% but .97 hullpoints stripped. It either explodes or it doesn't.

A vehicle can only explode once, but 6 shots can still potentially inflict 6 separate explosion results (obviously 5 will be wasted, but the possibility still exists).

I could be wrong though - I'm certainly not an expert in maths/probability.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 15:51

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Explode results aren't cumulative? It's a separate roll from your wound formula. You didn't calculate 97% but .97 hullpoints stripped. It either explodes or it doesn't.

A vehicle can only explode once, but 6 shots can still potentially inflict 6 separate explosion results (obviously 5 will be wasted, but the possibility still exists).

I could be wrong though - I'm certainly not an expert in maths/probability.

6 shots are fired.
4 shots hit.
4 shots penetrate.
2 shots are jinked away.

2 penetrating hits land on the venom. Each shot has a 50% chance to cause the venom to explode.
Unlike wounds and glances, you're not dealing with a sum of results, you're dealing with a condition that either something happens or it does not. If you flip a coin two times, you don't have a 97% probability to get heads, you have a 75% chance and while the probability increases with each subsequent flip, the margin that it increases get's smaller and smaller.
That formula looks like: .50+.50*.50 = .75

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 16:06

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

6 shots are fired.
4 shots hit.
4 shots penetrate.
2 shots are jinked away.

2 penetrating hits land on the venom. Each shot has a 50% chance to cause the venom to explode.
Unlike wounds and glances, you're not dealing with a sum of results, you're dealing with a condition that either something happens or it does not. If you flip a coin two times, you don't have a 97% probability to get heads, you have a 75% chance and while the probability increases with each subsequent flip, the margin that it increases get's smaller and smaller.
That formula looks like: .50+.50*.50 = .75

I see what you mean, fair enough.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 16:23

We still rock in eternal war as our transports score and deny. All our units score. Objective placement happens before table sides are determined so they are a lot more likely to be spread out, making our mobility a huge asset. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 16:24

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Are mission cards used in eternal war? If not I feel like that "benefit" is a moot point. It's like saying we have the best unbound army. It's a cool tip of the hat, but if you won't generally use it in normal competitive play...

Who says that we won't? It isn't at all like unbound armies and Revenants. A few people are already giving maelstrom a bad rep, like 'not for reals' mode, but those people are wrong and they need to stop being wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 16:51

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Are mission cards used in eternal war? If not I feel like that "benefit" is a moot point. It's like saying we have the best unbound army. It's a cool tip of the hat, but if you won't generally use it in normal competitive play...

Who says that we won't? It isn't at all like unbound armies and Revenants. A few people are already giving maelstrom a bad rep, like 'not for reals' mode, but those people are wrong and they need to stop being wrong.

I'm not knocking it, I haven't even had a chance to try it yet, and it sounds really fun. And while it's not like unbound and revenants (yet) it has the potential to be. Just because if the standard that GW used in their own tournaments is adopted as a consensus, maelstrom missions will be relegated "fun" games, which is great with buddies, but terrible for pick up games. Much like, unbound armies and revenant titans.

@Mushkilla wrote:
We still rock in eternal war as our transports score and deny. All our units score. Objective placement happens before table sides are determined so they are a lot more likely to be spread out, making our mobility a huge asset. Smile

Fair enough, one of the few things I was super positive about with the new edition is 4+/5++ scoring vehicles, and those will still be great in eternal war. Just not as good as in maelstrom where our ability to adapt quickly to random missions makes us superior. I honestly don't know how much maelstrom missions work, but I imagine somebody like tau who can just sit on a static objective are still fine in eternal war. But in maelstrom you might have to get to the other half of the table quickly, and we're one of the few armies that can. And in style.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 22:12

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
Combine that with the defensive grenades from the Archon to hopefully blind the target

Yes, I was just looking at that. The PGL gives defensive grenades which are now S1, AP-, Assault 1, Blast, Blind. So if you hit the unit that you are charging with it they have to take an I test or be WS and BS 1 until the end of their next turn. That should guarantee that they are hitting you on 5's in the subsequent assault and that you're hitting them on 3's.

Talking about blinding opportunities I suggest you to think about an Archon (huskblade, shadowfield, PGL) in a raider, with 5 banshees.
If you reach your enemy it's almost automatic WS1, BS1 and I1, not bad...

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 09:20

I think I'd still rather Grotesques for actually doing stuff, and I'm not going to pay for the PGL for Defensive grenades to have a 33% chance to Blind MEQ.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 09:49

With banshees you have 83% of blinding anyone.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 10:38

@Gherma wrote:
With banshees you have 83% of blinding anyone.

Sadly the I test for Blind occurs at the end of the shooting phase, ie before the I penalty for the Banshee Mask.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 10:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Gherma wrote:
With banshees you have 83% of blinding anyone.

Sadly the I test for Blind occurs at the end of the shooting phase, ie before the I penalty for the Banshee Mask.

Damn! You're right! I don't know why I was thinking that the blinding rule was during the assault phase and not the shoting one XD

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 15:41

Started reading through the first several pages so if on page 11 or so you already cover this, sorry I gots interweb ADHD. (I play E/DE or DE/E so I am going to lump in some Craftworld Love)

Anyhow some stuff that I think got better:

Reavers, if you where shooting with them you did it wrong. Just bladevane from cover to cover. These guys are still working super good for me. As the bladevane is not a shooting attack, so no snap shots. In all reality, you should only be shooting to kill that last model or two on an objective.

Its not much, but the razorwing got a touch better with the jink changes, a 50/50 is pretty nice. I think night shields are the way to go with this one. Esp with the changes to FMCs and grounding checks, at least in my meta, I am going to want one.

Dont forget that now with OS our venoms and raiders are now scoring with OS if taken with troops.

With the changes to the psychic phase and all that, Eldar have gotten pretty damn good. Competitivly, one can take two Farseers with Malific and pump out some demon buddies. Personally, I think this is funny. Even if you dont, with a single FS you can throw a few more dice at the other guys invs/fortune roll.

I think there is some real creative ways to play space elves. There are a few things I am thinking of trying:

Duke S with a Rain of Pain (take eldar allies and have the wraithknight on the table turn one flipping the other side of the table off)

Space Clowns

Carnival of Pain, esp if the rumors are true.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 15:54

@Hannibal.Lictor wrote:
In all reality, you should only be shooting to kill that last model or two on an objective.

What about heat lances and tanks? Works pretty sweet for me. Has that changed in 7th?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 17:11

@Hannibal.Lictor wrote:
Reavers, if you where shooting with them you did it wrong.

Not really. Shooting was one of the aspects of reavers that made them so flexible. Bladevaning, isn't always a smart move as it often leaves you in a vulnerable position (due to having to travel in a straight line as per the bladevane rules). Not to mention bladevanes do nothing to vehicles. The fastest way to get your reavers slaughtered is a careless bladevane move.

That being said shooting with reavers is still an option this edition as you don't need to jink if you are in a ruin (as you get 4+ cover), and as reavers have skilled rider they don't take dangerous terrain tests.

You can also move into position out of sight/in cover, and then jump into the open fire your antitank weapons at full BS, and jink on your opponents turn if they decide to target you.

So with good positioning shooting is still a strong option, and adds to the versatility of the unit. It just takes a little bit more thought (similar to how reavers were used in 5th edition).

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 30 2014, 19:14

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Hannibal.Lictor wrote:
Reavers, if you where shooting with them you did it wrong.


You can also move into position out of sight/in cover, and then jump into the open fire your antitank weapons at full BS, and jink on your opponents turn if they decide to target you.

And don`t forget their 2d6 in assault phase.
One game i placed them behind wall to prevent LOS. Then i jump from there and shoot, then back. And so on. My opponent was soooo pissed off.

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