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 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 10:36

@ulijikaru wrote:

Which brings me to another question, which will lead to a rant will probably will be inappropriately placed in this forum why would we EVER fight during the day time... We should never get ambushed ever, we are never in real space long enough. Are the webways only active in sunlight? Don't you think some archon somewhere along the line would have thought, "hey, ive got this crazy idea: lets only attack the side of planets where we have the greatest advantage?"

Maybe all our Archons now have the intellect of Rimmer...

"The last thing they'll be expecting - a charge through the minefield, under cover of daylight."
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 10:43

You so compare yourself to the prey that you find yourself needing to further weaken their pathetic state? You wish your enemies to be so little a challenge that the snuffing of their lives would barely whet the appetite.

If your Kabal is full of inept, worthless swine that you could not take your fill of slaves whatever the conditions... heh, I suppose that's why you're consigned to spend your miserable life skulking among the lower tiers, isn't it?




(ahem, or something like that)

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 17:29

With the nerf to night fighting I could see them doing something in our codex along the lines of if it is night fighting we get to roll a d6 and it lasts that many turns.  Would stick to the fluff (I agree why would we attack during daylight) without being overpowered as all it is is essentially giving the most fragile army a +1 cover save.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 18:12

The overpowered part is the 3+ jink save we'd automatically get on our vehicles.

But yeah it is fairly stupid to see perfectly well in the dark, and attack your opponent during the day. I'll blame it on the fact Dark Eldar don't have much use for things like "Daylight savings time" and just pop out of their webway portals at the first convenience. Seriously, when you live forever and have two slave suns and all live in ONE city, there's not much reason to keep track of when the monkeys are sleeping.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 18:35

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Seriously, when you live forever and have two slave suns and all live in ONE city, there's not much reason to keep track of when the monkeys are sleeping.
That's actually pretty true.

How the hell can we know what time it is when we raid?  Shocked 

I think we need to start using mandrakes for scouting ahead.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 18:43

@Mngwa wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Seriously, when you live forever and have two slave suns and all live in ONE city, there's not much reason to keep track of when the monkeys are sleeping.


I think we need to start using mandrakes for scouting ahead.

I`ve tryed, but those sneaky bastards never return.
Probably they are too lame to survive as scout squad  Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 18:58

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The overpowered part is the 3+ jink save we'd automatically get on our vehicles.

Well, automatically at the cost of snap-shotting next turn.

Which, lets face it, would hurt Venoms and Ravagers really badly.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 19:07

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
The overpowered part is the 3+ jink save we'd automatically get on our vehicles.

Well, automatically at the cost of snap-shotting next turn.

Which, lets face it, would hurt Venoms and Ravagers really badly.

I think it requires a change of mindset really. I was up in arms (still kind of am) about the change to jink, but then I also thought the snapshotting effected passengers. The change definitely hurts venom spam. Twelve snapshots? A venom by itself is no logner such a good weapons platform. Lame. However it did make our TRANSPORTS better. Unfortunately, assault is still crap. But when you think about raiders now, especially with the change to explosions rules, a raider with a 4+/5++ filled to the brim with kabalites and splinter racks, is a lot better than a venom. And honestly it opens some doors we wouldn't have opened. I never would have used lanceborn before, but putting them on an AV10 4+/5++ platform, and not moving it, sounds like it could be legit.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 19:39

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
a raider with a 4+/5++ filled to the brim with kabalites and splinter racks, is a lot better than a venom. And honestly it opens some doors we wouldn't have opened. I never would have used lanceborn before, but putting them on an AV10 4+/5++ platform, and not moving it, sounds like it could be legit.

Hell yeah. I may dust off my raiders now. 3 HP is definitely worth it in regards of the new vehicle damage chart. And the LanceBorn is awesome idea. Effectively making our Raider into a ravager/platform. Going to have to try this out.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 19:53

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

I think it requires a change of mindset really. I was up in arms (still kind of am) about the change to jink, but then I also thought the snapshotting effected passengers. The change definitely hurts venom spam. Twelve snapshots? A venom by itself is no logner such a good weapons platform.  Lame. However it did make our TRANSPORTS better. Unfortunately, assault is still crap. But when you think about raiders now, especially with the change to explosions rules, a raider with a 4+/5++ filled to the brim with kabalites and splinter racks, is a lot better than a venom. And honestly it opens some doors we wouldn't have opened. I never would have used lanceborn before, but putting them on an AV10 4+/5++ platform, and not moving it, sounds like it could be legit.

Getting jink without moving is something I'll have to get used to (I'm too used to nudging my vehicles every turn  Wink ).

I do see what you mean, though still don't think a 3+ jink save with a drawback would make our vehicles overpowered - especially when many races would just ignore the extra bonus, or even he entire cover save.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 21:16

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:

I think it requires a change of mindset really. I was up in arms (still kind of am) about the change to jink, but then I also thought the snapshotting effected passengers. The change definitely hurts venom spam. Twelve snapshots? A venom by itself is no logner such a good weapons platform.  Lame. However it did make our TRANSPORTS better. Unfortunately, assault is still crap. But when you think about raiders now, especially with the change to explosions rules, a raider with a 4+/5++ filled to the brim with kabalites and splinter racks, is a lot better than a venom. And honestly it opens some doors we wouldn't have opened. I never would have used lanceborn before, but putting them on an AV10 4+/5++ platform, and not moving it, sounds like it could be legit.

Getting jink without moving is something I'll have to get used to (I'm too used to nudging my vehicles every turn  Wink ).

I do see what you mean, though still don't think a 3+ jink save with a drawback would make our vehicles overpowered - especially when many races would just ignore the extra bonus, or even he entire cover save.

To put it into perspective:
Nightfighting + Jink + Drop Pod with veterans and 4 meltaguns

Back in the day: 1.778 Hullpoints taken off. 82.9% Chance of exploding

Present Day: .889 Hullpoints taken off 43.2% chance of exploding

The fact that a Venom should statistically survive 4 melta shots being fired at it, is, well, kind of ridiculous and awesome. And while yes, the venom can take only snapshots the crew inside could fire back all it's weapons at full BS.

Edit: Melta wise, that makes a venom harder to explode than a land raider. Which has a 45.7% chance.

Second Edit: Exploding percentages were wrong, because I forgot to include open-topped but the math is still accurate strangely.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 23:20

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

To put it into perspective:
Nightfighting + Jink + Drop Pod with veterans and 4 meltaguns

Back in the day: 1.778 Hullpoints taken off. 82.9% Chance of exploding

Present Day: .889 Hullpoints taken off 43.2% chance of exploding

The fact that a Venom should statistically survive 4 melta shots being fired at it, is, well, kind of ridiculous and awesome. And while yes, the venom can take only snapshots the crew inside could fire back all it's weapons at full BS.

Edit: Melta wise, that makes a venom harder to explode than a land raider. Which has a 45.7% chance.

Second Edit: Exploding percentages were wrong, because I forgot to include open-topped but the math is still accurate strangely.

Your math seems a bit misleading. The new vehicle-damage chart is not what we're debating, and the venom will have a 4+ jink save regardless.

Surely you should just be comparing the odds of destroying a venom with a 3+ save, to a venom with a 4+ save (and using the current vehicle damage chart in both cases)?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Wed May 28 2014, 23:56

Is the Deldar Driveby a functional strategy again? I've not seen the new rulebook myself, but a guy in my gaming group said that models riding along in a fast transport at cruising speed no longer have to snap shot, as the rules only say that they count as having moved. Anyone able to testify to this?

Also, I'm new here (to both the forums and the army). Glad to have access to an active DE community!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 00:39

@The Shredder wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:

To put it into perspective:
Nightfighting + Jink + Drop Pod with veterans and 4 meltaguns

Back in the day: 1.778 Hullpoints taken off. 82.9% Chance of exploding

Present Day: .889 Hullpoints taken off 43.2% chance of exploding

The fact that a Venom should statistically survive 4 melta shots being fired at it, is, well, kind of ridiculous and awesome. And while yes, the venom can take only snapshots the crew inside could fire back all it's weapons at full BS.

Edit: Melta wise, that makes a venom harder to explode than a land raider. Which has a 45.7% chance.

Second Edit: Exploding percentages were wrong, because I forgot to include open-topped but the math is still accurate strangely.

Your math seems a bit misleading. The new vehicle-damage chart is not what we're debating, and the venom will have a 4+ jink save regardless.

Surely you should just be comparing the odds of destroying a venom with a 3+ save, to a venom with a 4+ save (and using the current vehicle damage chart in both cases)?

I guess I was comparing how we were to how we are but still, just to demonstrate:

How many licks does it take to get to the Kabalite center of a Venom pop? Let's find out.


Without night fighting and just the 4+ jink:
6 melta shots: 2 hull points 73.6% chance of explosion
6 lascannon shots 2 hull points 48% chance of explosion
8 krak missiles getting lazy here as the explosions get lower this is what it will take to just strip off two hull points.
18 Heavy bolter shots
and what the hell
36 regular bolters

Now with night fighting:
9 melta shots
9 lascannon shots
11 krak missles
27 heavy bolter shots
54 bolter shots

A 3+ save is pretty substantial. Now sure, a wave serpent will ignore the hell out of it, to make a bit of a crappy example here:

Minus a lucky roll of a six-
It would take 11 krak missiles to down a raider probability wise. I'm pretty sure they'd roll a six in there they have a 36% chance. But that's with a 4 plus jink.

Contrarily it would take 17 krak missiles to down a raider sporting a 3+ cover save.

Meaning if it were night fighting and your opponent rolled absolutely average, he couldn't even field enough devastators to take out one raider. Well unless he allied with himself or played unbound, but hey, I think it's pretty OP to have it on command. Maybe that's just me.

I'm actually just excited to see some numbers next to the new jink and explodes rules. I hate the snap firing thing for sure, but raiders are beasts (not the unit type, they're just good) now, and my dark lances never hit at full ballistic skill anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 08:02

Still don't get all the complaints in this thread. We got massive buffs:

4+ jink without moving, and when going second, sure the raider has to fire at BS1 next turn, but the passengers still get to fire at full ballistic skill (3+ with night fight).

Our transports are now scoring and objective secure denial units.

All our units are scoring (e.g reavers and talos).

Fantastic strategic/command warlord traits that we get to re-roll on.

All our transports became more resilient and are less likely to explode.

Better deployment and objective rules.

We can keep more that 50% of our army in reserve.

Deepstriking vehicles only count as moving at combat speed (so passengers can fire at full ballistic skill).


I cannot even begin to state how strong these changes make us.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 09:09

The problem is that pretty much every single one of those changes applies to pretty much everyone else too. So are we really any better off than before? I have grave doubts. Having to snapfire with a Raider is not too bad. But a Venom or a Ravager? That's a lot of firepower going to waste!

I played my first 7e game last night with a Dark Eldar/Eldar alliance. The Eldar Wave Serpents are still amazingly resilient and can still kick out a lot of fire even when snap firing, due to being twin-linked most of the time via scatter laser. We have no means of twin-linking any of our vehicles so our firepower is vastly diminished if we are forced to Jink. Granted we can spend points on a flickerfield to reduce the need to Jink but that is often no sufficient.

I am sorely hoping that our new codex will give us the ability to fire at full BS even when Jinking. Now that would be a buff worth writing home about!

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 09:54

I just played my first game of 7th, and all of the changes seemed good to me. Venoms come with flicker fields, and I usually by them for other vehicles so I wasn't forced to jink. With the amount of ignores cover they have always seemed mandatory to me, and I'm always a little surprised when people don't use them. I did make use of the better jink several times and it kept both my venoms alive on multiple occasions.

I was able to grab every objective. One using a raider, and another using a group of Wyches whose venom only made it across the board because of the improved jink.

I think Mushkilla is correct. These changes may not drastically improve any of our units, but they really add to their flexibility.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 11:46

Lanceborn in a Raider deployed in ruins ( if rolled Stealth (ruins)) or if at night is huge vs those drop pod, or even long range armies. 3+ for not moving! Yes please!!

Also are we saying that 7th ed means Warriors in Raiders have become better than Venoms in terms of moving and shooting?? There is still the range issue though.....

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:20

Well i like the changes so far. Sure, some can be a pain, but there are nice things too.

Now i can finally add a Spiritseer to my Inccubi + Archon on a raider. I'll hope he'll roll a 4 on the Runes of Battle and my Inccubi will be rocking a nice 2+ armour save. If i do not roll a 4 with the 2 dice, then the other powers aren't that bad for Inccubi aswell.
Combine that with the defensive grenades from the Archon to hopefully blind the target..

Finally a fitting Dark Eldar CC Unit.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:32

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
Well i like the changes so far. Sure, some can be a pain, but there are nice things too.

Now i can finally add a Spiritseer to my Inccubi + Archon on a raider. I'll hope he'll roll a 4 on the Runes of Battle and my Inccubi will be rocking a nice 2+ armour save. If i do not roll a 4 with the 2 dice, then the other powers aren't that bad for Inccubi aswell.
Combine that with the defensive grenades from the Archon to hopefully blind the target..

Finally a fitting Dark Eldar CC Unit.

Hmm... thanks for the hint!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:34

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
Combine that with the defensive grenades from the Archon to hopefully blind the target

Yes, I was just looking at that. The PGL gives defensive grenades which are now S1, AP-, Assault 1, Blast, Blind. So if you hit the unit that you are charging with it they have to take an I test or be WS and BS 1 until the end of their next turn. That should guarantee that they are hitting you on 5's in the subsequent assault and that you're hitting them on 3's.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:44

That blind ist quite good for CC but i think, they can be quite funny for shooty units as well.

Do a driveby with warriors with splinter racks on a raider, and lob a def. grenade on the enemy, that surely takes away a lot of the retaliation. Could be funny to spam those around...

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 12:53

@Scratch wrote:
Is the Deldar Driveby a functional strategy again? I've not seen the new rulebook myself, but a guy in my gaming group said that models riding along in a fast transport at cruising speed no longer have to snap shot, as the rules only say that they count as having moved. Anyone able to testify to this?

Also, I'm new here (to both the forums and the army). Glad to have access to an active DE community!

Firstly, welcome! Hope you enjoy your time here as much as we all do  Smile 

Unfortunately, cruising speed still means snap shooting, so it's a no on the drive-by.  Crying or Very sad 

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:04

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Without night fighting and just the 4+ jink:
6 melta shots: 2 hull points 73.6% chance of explosion
6 lascannon shots 2 hull points 48% chance of explosion

Are you sure about your math on this one?

Assuming melta range, I make the odds of 6 meltaguns exploding a venom to be 97%.

Also, a more minor discrepancy, but I get 44% for one of those 6 lascannons to explode it.

In addition, are you calculating the odds of exploding separate to hull points? Because, surely destroying it is all that matters? (i.e. the number of shots required should reflect the odds of exploding the venom PLUS the odds of destroying it via hull points).


Regardless, you might still be right regarding the 3+ save - at the very least, it does make more difference than I thought.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 29 2014, 13:14

Hi all

First post...so go easy if I've got this wrong:

I know that close combat isn't what it was back in the day but does 7th ed let us charge into combat on our opponent's turn?

I've only read through the book once as I'm still reeling at putting down £50 for about 15 useful pages. Assault vehicle rules say you can assault from a vehicle on the turn it is destroyed. The definition of "turn" defaults to player turn.
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