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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Thu May 22 2014, 23:32

Hi all, I thought it would be nice to list the pros and cons of what has happened to our dear Commorrites with the new additions and alterations this edition has brought.

Pros:

  • Reavers boosting and 2D6ing. This has been cleared up now completely so will not see any future arguments.
  • You now take a leadership test when your transport is shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed or immobilised - if you pass you shoot normally, if you don't you snap shot.
  • Death stars. All of the big death stars seen around currently have either become nerfed, unusable or illegal. Beaststar has stayed the same and thus got better; an added bonus is D weapons getting nerfed so that you can still take invuns.
  • Battle brothers. Eldar that are best friends still, letting you take advantage of super scoring Windriders and Banshees that want to take a ride in your Raider, sure.


Neutral:

  • Jink. I've struggled with this. Yeah you get a 4+ now but have to declare before they roll to hit. And you have to snap shot. I see this adding a handy alternative to flickered vehicles but nerfs Reavers slightly in not letting them use their shooting to full potential.
  • Vehicles 'harder' to destroy. Statistically our vehicles are harder to one shot but just as easy to strip hull points from, something that goes both ways.


Cons:

  • Night fight has seen a nerf with it only adding stealth to all, does not affect ranges and only happens turn one now.
  • No explosion craters, when a vehicle explodes now it no longer leaves a handy crater for your Warriors to shelter in or make use of.


This list is really not exhaustive so if you have more ideas or want to challenge some of mine, please reply.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 01:06

I'd say reavers got better as long as they can still bladevane after jinking. This will mean a 3+ cover save at the least while bladevaning...ignore cover is always an issue, but I think they could be more survivable if you like to use that option.


Another nerf to DE as a whole:
Tactical objectives. Holding objectives with our troops is hard...incredibly hard. We are just so fragile. Wracks might be useful for this alone though since they are tougher.

I'll get my book tomorrow so I can read through the changes myself, what I've said is based on info I've read around the web.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 01:10

No Craters? That's a shame.

Although I'm pretty glad I didn't pull the trigger on purchasing those new craters. Money well saved there.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 01:24

You both put reaver jetbikes as better, when in fact they are worse. Sky serpent hit on it:
Reavers when bladevaning have a 4+ jink and +1 for skilled rider, 3+ total.
However, they now only hit on 6's if they want this save.

Old version is reavers have a 5+ jink, +1 for skilled rider and +1 for turbo for a 3+ save, and if they did not turbo would have a 4+ cover and hit at normal BS.

Same unit, same save, worse shooting.
Thats a nerf.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 02:44

I didn't think that reavers could shoot when Bladevaning. Since the Bladevane attacks are from the Turbo Boost. I could be wrong, just let me know if I am.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 03:37

You are correct, but the snap fire would affect them in the next turn, when normally they could have moved and shot without penalty.

I'll also admit I don't like to think of the D weapon thing being a nerf, but rather a 'dear gawd, thank you for taking away one of the mondo boosts you gave them for no apparent reason since it's not like anyone thought they were weak before the new Apoc'

...I'm a bit of a grumpy Gus at heart though Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 03:41

@Skulnbonz wrote:
You both put reaver jetbikes as better, when in fact they are worse.  Sky serpent hit on it:
Reavers when bladevaning have a 4+ jink and +1 for skilled rider, 3+ total.
However, they now only hit on 6's if they want this save.

Old version is reavers have a 5+ jink, +1 for skilled rider and +1 for turbo for a 3+ save, and if they did not turbo would have a 4+ cover and hit at normal BS.

Same unit, same save, worse shooting.
Thats a nerf.

I was thinking they still got hte turboboost bonus, my apologies. HOWEVER, compared to ANY other jetbike, bike, etc...I'd say we did pretty damn well in comparison since we can still bladevane. In my opinion (a humble one at that), bladevaning is what made reavers worth it...their shooting was meh otherwise compared to other options. So in the context of 7th edition as a whole, they are ok still compared to say Eldar jetbikes, which lost its shooting altogether if requiring a jink...helps they have a 3+ save though. But I do stand corrected on the save part, thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 08:11

+ T1a JINK!

About Reavers: They are not so much affected by the new jink. Now only the Caltrops are a better option for them instead of guns.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 08:20

How could we ride eldar in our raiders??? they cannot take it as dedicated i think, so its probably need one turn to set all things on its placec. How its worked? Warriors leave raider, next turn banshee goes in, next turn they ride???
Or there something i don`t know, like Christopher Walken?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 08:28

@Devilogical wrote:
How could we ride eldar in our raiders??? they cannot take it as dedicated i think, so its probably need one turn to set all things on its placec. How its worked? Warriors leave raider, next turn banshee goes in, next turn they ride???
Or there something i don`t know, like Christopher Walken?

The Banshee deploy next to empty Raider and T1 hop in.

Do they need a DE character to go be a host in the DE vehicle?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 09:06

The crater thing is not much of a nerf given that craters are now 6+ save only.

Which leads me onto what I think may turn out to be a huge nerf for us - no area terrain! For an army whose infantry has effectively no armour and one invulnerable save (the one-shot Shadowfield) between the whole lot, we tend to rely on cover a great deal. Now one source of that cover has been completely removed.

I'm also not so sure that deathstars have really been changed that much at all. Other than Taudar I don't really see any big changes to most. Screamerstar still works, Daemon Flying Circus still works (although if you want to assault with your FMC's you're S.o.o.L.), Seerstar still works and I suspect may actually end up being even better (worse?) with the changes to the Telepathy powers. An Invisible, Concealed/Shrouded, Protected, Fortuned Seerstar will be even more ridiculous to try to kill.

Reavers have been nerfed but in comparison to all other bikes and jetbikes still come out of it better due to the ability to bladevane all game if needed.

The vehicle changes in theory do help us - but they help everyone else more. Being harder to destroy is great for Land Raiders and Predators but not so good for AV10 open-topped vehicles.

Overall I'm not optimistic about 7e for Dark Eldar. The only consolation is that we're not Tyranids or Tau!

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 09:16

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm also not so sure that deathstars have really been changed that much at all. Other than Taudar I don't really see any big changes to most. Screamerstar still works, Daemon Flying Circus still works (although if you want to assault with your FMC's you're S.o.o.L.), Seerstar still works and I suspect may actually end up being even better (worse?) with the changes to the Telepathy powers. An Invisible, Concealed/Shrouded, Protected, Fortuned Seerstar will be even more ridiculous to try to kill.

Apparently, you can only attempt a power once per unit. It it fails, you can not retry that power. And powers no longer stack with themselves. So if you fail that Fortune, too bad, no Fortune for you this turn. If you fail Conceal or Protect, no other Warlock is allowed to cast it. So you put more dice into casting them to make sure they go off. Which increases the chance for perils killing those psykers outright. So yeah, Seercouncil is worse.

Invisibility is a must now though, especially for our Beaststars. I love you Immunity to blast weapons I love you

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The only consolation is that we're not Tyranids or Tau!

Tyranids are crying with joy. Move through Cover now ignores terrain. So no more initiative penalties for charging. And only one grounding test for FMCs per phase, instead of one per hit. However, Tau get the short end of the stick indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 09:28

@Vasara wrote:
@Devilogical wrote:
How could we ride eldar in our raiders??? they cannot take it as dedicated i think, so its probably need one turn to set all things on its placec. How its worked? Warriors leave raider, next turn banshee goes in, next turn they ride???
Or there something i don`t know, like Christopher Walken?

The Banshee deploy next to empty Raider and T1 hop in.

Do they need a DE character to go be a host in the DE vehicle?

And how can we field an empty raider?? There has to be someone in it - it`s dedicated transport after all

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 09:29

Deploy the 5 kabalites to reserves. Or to quad gun. Or have them come out first.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 09:47

@Mandor wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm also not so sure that deathstars have really been changed that much at all. Other than Taudar I don't really see any big changes to most. Screamerstar still works, Daemon Flying Circus still works (although if you want to assault with your FMC's you're S.o.o.L.), Seerstar still works and I suspect may actually end up being even better (worse?) with the changes to the Telepathy powers. An Invisible, Concealed/Shrouded, Protected, Fortuned Seerstar will be even more ridiculous to try to kill.

Apparently, you can only attempt a power once per unit. It it fails, you can not retry that power. And powers no longer stack with themselves. So if you fail that Fortune, too bad, no Fortune for you this turn. If you fail Conceal or Protect, no other Warlock is allowed to cast it. So you put more dice into casting them to make sure they go off. Which increases the chance for perils killing those psykers outright. So yeah, Seercouncil is worse.

Except the Seerstar has sufficient dice to force through any power they really need, eg Fortune, that is cast by a Farseer (who is protected from Perils). Any power they cast with a Warlock will be WC1 and cast on 2 or 3 dice so very little chance of perils. If Conceal doesn't work, they get a Farseer to cast Shrouding instead. If Protect doesn't work then that's tough but doesn't make a huge amount of difference unless there's a lot of AP1 or 2 ignores cover shooting. And if they're invisible then they probably won't have to worry about that too much either as they're immune to blast weapons and anything else needs 6's to hit before they even start worrying about their rerollable invulnerable and cover saves.

Quote :
@Count Adhemar wrote:
The only consolation is that we're not Tyranids or Tau!

Tyranids are crying with joy. Move through Cover now ignores terrain. So no more initiative penalties for charging. And only one grounding test for FMCs per phase, instead of one per hit.

Believe me. I've been on the Tyranid forums and they're crying, but not with joy. Their FMC's are indeed harder to kill but nobody cares because they can't actually do anything. Nerfs to Vector Strike, assaulting after changing flight mode and Smash have basically killed off their FMC's. The Smash change has killed off most of their AT (and the psychic power changes have killed off the rest). They are not happy at all!

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 10:33

@Vasara wrote:
Deploy the 5 kabalites to reserves. Or to quad gun. Or have them come out first.

Too long. Passangers HAVE to be in transport at the begining of the game. Deploy raider closer to eldar ally, than move out passangers, next turn ally get into raider and only turn 3 its moving far enouth. Not very good, if u ask me.

The only way seems to be not very bad - raider with 8-9 passangers on board, deployed closer to farseer\spiritseer, who will embark it turn 1. All other ways seems to be waste of time.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 10:38

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Except the Seerstar has sufficient dice to force through any power they really need, eg Fortune, that is cast by a Farseer (who is protected from Perils). Any power they cast with a Warlock will be WC1 and cast on 2 or 3 dice so very little chance of perils. If Conceal doesn't work, they get a Farseer to cast Shrouding instead. If Protect doesn't work then that's tough but doesn't make a huge amount of difference unless there's a lot of AP1 or 2 ignores cover shooting. And if they're invisible then they probably won't have to worry about that too much either as they're immune to blast weapons and anything else needs 6's to hit before they even start worrying about their rerollable invulnerable and cover saves.

So you try to cast Protect or Conceal with minimal dice and you get one (or two) successes. I now throw all my Deny dice into canceling that power. Should I succeed, you can't try for that power on the council again that turn. It's not perfect, true, but it's a lot better than previously with powers almost always succeeding.

Invisibility will be a game breaker though, not just for the Seer council, but for any death star. It didn't need a buff and this is just over the top.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Believe me. I've been on the Tyranid forums and they're crying, but not with joy. Their FMC's are indeed harder to kill but nobody cares because they can't actually do anything. Nerfs to Vector Strike, assaulting after changing flight mode and Smash have basically killed off their FMC's. The Smash change has killed off most of their AT (and the psychic power changes have killed off the rest). They are not happy at all!

Agreed, it's a give and take for FMCs. And I'm sure they are focusing on the things they have lost, like any proper internet community.  Wink

@Devilogical wrote:
@Vasara wrote:
Deploy the 5 kabalites to reserves. Or to quad gun. Or have them come out first.

Too long. Passangers HAVE to be in transport at the begining of the game. Deploy raider closer to eldar ally, than move out passangers, next turn ally get into raider and only turn 3 its moving far enouth. Not very good, if u ask me.

The only way seems to be not very bad - raider with 8-9 passangers on board, deployed closer to farseer\spiritseer, who will embark it turn 1. All other ways seems to be waste of time.

Is passengers having to deploy in their transport a change in the new edition? Because in 6th they sure don't have to be on board when deploying.

And in 7th, your Battle Brother IC can deploy in your transport at the start of the game, apparently.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 10:48

@Mandor wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Except the Seerstar has sufficient dice to force through any power they really need, eg Fortune, that is cast by a Farseer (who is protected from Perils). Any power they cast with a Warlock will be WC1 and cast on 2 or 3 dice so very little chance of perils. If Conceal doesn't work, they get a Farseer to cast Shrouding instead. If Protect doesn't work then that's tough but doesn't make a huge amount of difference unless there's a lot of AP1 or 2 ignores cover shooting. And if they're invisible then they probably won't have to worry about that too much either as they're immune to blast weapons and anything else needs 6's to hit before they even start worrying about their rerollable invulnerable and cover saves.

So you try to cast Protect or Conceal with minimal dice and you get one (or two) successes. I now throw all my Deny dice into canceling that power. Should I succeed, you can't try for that power on the council again that turn. It's not perfect, true, but it's a lot better than previously with powers almost always succeeding.

The chances of you dispelling any buff that I cast are so small that they might as well be zero. You have to roll more 6's than I roll 4's and only have D6 dice to roll for the entire turn. Not going to happen more than once in a blue moon and I'm basically going to ignore it.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 11:01

@ligolski wrote:
Another nerf to DE as a whole:
Tactical objectives. Holding objectives with our troops is hard...incredibly hard. We are just so fragile. Wracks might be useful for this alone though since they are tougher.

I admit I don't have the book yet, so I could have the mechanics wrong, but I feel like tactical objectives could be a great boon for us.

From my understanding, the objective related tactical missions are all about taking, rather than holding objectives. As you point out, we are crap at the latter, but we are awesome at the former, especially when the objectives are spread out across the board.

If as soon as you take an objective you score the point, then nick off to a different random objective to do the same, like some kind of objective based whack-a-mole, then Troop Venoms and Raiders could be extremely useful.

Maybe five kabalites with a blaster camp on an objective in cover while their Venom flies around scoring points?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 11:52

I've just read a HUGE change on another forum. Someone is claiming that template weapons can now affect the passengers of an Open-Topped vehicle. Can anyone who has the book confirm or deny this please?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 12:13

As far as I know it has been proved to be a false Rumor..
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 13:42

@Mandor wrote:



@Devilogical wrote:
@Vasara wrote:
Deploy the 5 kabalites to reserves. Or to quad gun. Or have them come out first.

Too long. Passangers HAVE to be in transport at the begining of the game. Deploy raider closer to eldar ally, than move out passangers, next turn ally get into raider and only turn 3 its moving far enouth. Not very good, if u ask me.

The only way seems to be not very bad - raider with 8-9 passangers on board, deployed closer to farseer\spiritseer, who will embark it turn 1. All other ways seems to be waste of time.

Is passengers having to deploy in their transport a change in the new edition? Because in 6th they sure don't have to be on board when deploying.

And in 7th, your Battle Brother IC can deploy in your transport at the start of the game, apparently.

It`s rule of dedicated transport. Passangers MUST start game in their transport . Well, if IC can be in our transport at the start, then it is not lost yet  Razz 

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 13:43

@Devilogical wrote:
It`s rule of dedicated transport. Passangers MUST start game in their transport .

It's never been a rule before and nobody else has mentioned it being a rule now. Are you saying this is new in 7e?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 13:48

I've been ablke to loom at a new rulebook, and I can't find that anywhere.

It says only the unit the transport was bought for can deploy in it, but it doesn't say they HAVE to deploy in it.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Changes for Dark Eldar - a review   Fri May 23 2014, 13:51

In that case everything is fine. The only restriction on dedicated transports has been just that only the squad that took it as dedicated can be deployed inside it. Nothing stops (or stopped) you from, say, taking 20 Kabalite Warriors and buying a Venom for them, for example.

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