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 Advice for upgrading an old army

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Advice for upgrading an old army   Thu May 22 2014, 17:04

Hi all. New here. My brother just started collecting and it prompted me to dig out my old DE 3rd/4th ED army. Its quite nice, or it was, and I sank a lot of time and money into it. As such, I dont really want to get rid of too much.

So, I will post an army list here if you want, but I expect that it should be better placed in the army list sub forum. As such I am looking for advice in general. Anyone who transitioned from the old army to the new, how did you do it? What did you keep, what did you loose? What rules from the old set do you still use in casual games? Which ones work well with the new rule set? How does an old army fare played just with the new rules?

I could give a basic army run down if people want/need it to give advice.

Please help.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Thu May 22 2014, 18:07

I have an old raider (i started WH40k when 5th ed DE released) wich i bougth couple of months ago. Its looks pretty nice (even its so old) on the table. And easy to transport. Also i`ve got some old kabalite, but don`t use them often (I`ll charge like a man! or a wych in this case).
Well, i read old codex (just for lulz) and i like the rule, wich is forbid DE to stay in defence. ONLY ATTACk!

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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 08:19

Whilst I did transition from 3rd to current edition my army would hardly be have been classed as extensive. So I didn't really have to replace anything, merely buy more units. I think it depends greatly on what your army contains at the moment and what style you plan to build your army around.

Personally I went for a kabal themed army. I kept all my kabal warriors and brought some new ones too, so if I require trueborn I now use my old warriors to keep them apart from the regular warriors. In terms of vehicles I only use the new raider models and have kept my old models for ravagers to add some variety to the tabletop landscape, because the many copies of the same model is pretty dull. My old reavers on the other hand I completely converted using the spare part in each of the new reaver kits to fit in with the new models. There are also some units which I simply haven't bothered with in my new army such as my incubi but that's just for my style of play.

In terms of rules I completely use the new rules for my army, I haven't really bothered to try to integrate any of the old rules into current edition games.

Hope that's of some help mate. Smile
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 18:40

That does help. I guess the only rules I would seriously consider carrying over are the old Incubus rules (and perhaps my archon upgrades). The Klaive is just a Punisher with a different name and the use of a Terminator Helm is fantastic (extra attack while assaulting and the ability to actually shoot something with a character that has a BS skill? Yes please!) As I play casual games I can write that into the fluff and have it accepted. Mount the whole lot on a raider and thats one devastating force. Im a little upset about wyches too but I can stick a Haem with them and the new Haems arnt all that different from the old so they should do fine. The pain token would be a great help too. Shame I would loose the use of the blaster and shredder but TBH I dont think I have ever used the Shredder. Ever.

Old Combat Drugs I might use too. Makes way more sense for my cut off satellite city to have kept old drugs along with old traditions. May write in that they are addicted and so must always use 2 at a time (so I always have the possibility of wounding myself).

I doubt I will get any trueborn. Dont get me wrong, great anti tank and all that, but lets face it, I have 2 ravagers which I can declare as both Dark Lance (only one model has DL but I have a mod in mind for the one that has Devastators) if I run up against a tank heavy army.

My Wyches used to be mounted on a raider but if I throw in a Haem there will be too many of them. I have one raider squad of warriors and plan to mount my Archon but I wondered what your thoughts were on the new transports?

What about the new fighter jets? Waste of time or super useful?

My 3 hellions are now of course not legal. Ditch them or should I get more?
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Vindicavi
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 19:22

From what I am aware (and experienced to a degree) Hellions are not terribly effective in units under 10-15, even then there are more effective (and better looking imo) units you can take. If you already have 3 I would suggest finding something (cheaper than what GW offer) to use as beasts and convert/take them as beastmasters.

I have found the flyers to be quite useful, mainly because I had no way of deal effectively with my opponents ariel support until I got my own, but they have also proved to be useful against ground targets so if you have the money I would recommend getting one.

To be honest it might be worth your time to lose a wych and put them and your hammy into a raider, or you might get shot to pieces before you can get anywhere near where you want to be. I like the idea of using the old drugs, sounds like it could be pretty interesting and should be fine if you're playing in casual games.

Hope to hear some of your game stories in future.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 20:26

I did the full transition from 3rd to 6th (and I suppose now to whatever the new one will be called - everyone keeps calling it 7th except for GW which is why I still stand by calling it 6.5, myself). I did a total rule shift. I don't cotton to mix-n-matching rules. I have played some friendly games where I play totally from the old dex, but that's it - I either go all one or all the other.

Raiders remain awesome - they will play as they ever did...arguably better.

Ravagers are different now - lose the Dissies go with lances. Dissies kinda got nerfed.

Warriors got better and all the old sculpts will work just fine.

Wyches suffer in their old tarpit role, their new role is to be tankbusters with haywire grenades. You'll learn to hate overwatch. Old wych weapons got changed up pretty dramatically, you could run Hydraknives as Hydra Gauntlets and the Falchion as Razorflails though, I suppose. The Impaler and Shardnet is still exactly as is. Your old Beastmaster models now make good Hexatrix (Wych Sarge) upgrades as I think the power lance is now superior to the Aggie...the Aggie kinda sucks now. Sorry about that.

Archons remain about the same - though no bikes or hellboards and they're less than they used to be in assault.
Archites are basically gone but there is a thing called a Succubi which is basically a Drachite who sucks as far as gear options, otherwise very much the same.
Haems also are basically the same deal, but get better with Pain Tokens - again, no bikes or hellboards.

Incubi got worse, but most new players don't understand it.

While we're at it, all the Retinues are gone or recreated, and now there's a thing called The Court of The Archon - it sucks, don't sweat it and don't be fooled into thinking it's like the retinue.

Hellions are a sideways upgrade, they'll still do about as well as they ever did, they're better at shooting now though.

Reavers got better overall, though work differently than they used to, models are all still functional.

Scourges are basically the same still, models are still viable.

Talos is about the same, I think the old model is better, it's certainly still viable.

Mandrakes...well, probably got worse, really. They certainly got no better.

Grotesques - are now called Wracks, they play similar. There is also now a new unit called Grotesques which is totally different and is basically a Grot + Ogryn sort of deal. They're pretty sweet.

Venoms are a new vehicle, they are a good value buy.

The flyers are all new...they are acceptable buys, but if you don't want them you don't particularly need them. They're not that impressive.

I think that about covers everything.


Edit;

Except special characters.

Lelith now sucks hard.
Vect is...different, the Dias sucks now, but Vect can be taken on foot.
Decapitator - is the same as far as playability goes.
Urien...I would say got a bit better. Though, as usual, only really worth it with Uber Grots.
Drahz got much more expensive and became less effective in combat...whoop-de-doo.

Of the new guys;

There is a unique Hellion - good.
A Unique sky pirate guy - good
A female Vect - she's basically okay

And now I think that's about it.

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 21:17

Thor665 wrote:


Incubi got worse, but most new players don't understand it.


Lelith now sucks hard.


And now I think that's about it.

Why`s that??

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Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 21:27

Very nice run down. I did read the battle thing thats been going on but I didnt find it all that useful. Its a nice exercise but really I dont want to know hit for hit if an old incubus kills a new incubus because if everything got stronger during the upgrade then its not much of a comparison. I want to know how much better a new Incubus does against a new Necron vs an old Incubus vs a new Necon.

That run down was nice. Sounds like I should wait until Nov to see if there is a new codex and then get it. Which is all I really wanted to know. Ill probably still do what I said before, but looks like Im getting a Venom and maybe replacing my hellions with flyers. Grab a few more Raiders and break up one of my 20 man Kabals into 2 10 man ones for extra speed. Drop a Wych (or use it as an excuse to snag 5 more and a second Haem). Play new rules against new rules players, old rules when allowed, mash up for some spice.

Keep the advice coming though.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Fri May 23 2014, 22:20

Devilogical wrote:
Thor665 wrote:


Incubi got worse, but most new players don't understand it.


Lelith now sucks hard.


And now I think that's about it.

Why`s that??
Incubi lost out on an entire phase and an attack and also lost their retinue status as well as Drahz as an upgrade option.

In exchange for this they were handed a few special abilities on the Klaivex that...basically accomplish not very much unless you're running a maxed Incubi squad. They also were allowed to be taken without an Archon...while also making the only way to get the assault grenades being to field them with an Archon.

Lelith went from a 90 some point unit that made Wyches troops and was capable of absolutely murdering most units in combat via a wave of armor ignoring, basically poison, attacks from within her retinue of Wychs with a custom drug loadout versus whatever you were fighting.

She was transformed into a 175 point sink that is actually probably less effective in combat versus...well, basically everything, and doesn't get any combat drugs at all, and her payoff for this is to *not* have a poison power weapon but rather to get a bunch of pseudo rending attacks instead - meaning anything T5 or tougher slaps her silly.

That's my basic reasoning on both.

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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 07:51

Thor665 wrote:
Devilogical wrote:
Thor665 wrote:


Incubi got worse, but most new players don't understand it.


Lelith now sucks hard.


And now I think that's about it.

Why`s that??


Lelith went from a 90 some point unit that made Wyches troops and was capable of absolutely murdering most units in combat via a wave of armor ignoring, basically poison, attacks from within her retinue of Wychs with a custom drug loadout versus whatever you were fighting.

She was transformed into a 175 point sink that is actually probably less effective in combat versus...well, basically everything, and doesn't get any combat drugs at all, and her payoff for this is to *not* have a poison power weapon but rather to get a bunch of pseudo rending attacks instead - meaning anything T5 or tougher slaps her silly.

That's my basic reasoning on both.

Can`t say much of the Incubi - my 3rd ed codex doesn`t have their entry  Suspect .
But Lelith... Are u serios about this???

I agree that she is overpriced (150pts max. IMHO), and has low T and S  Sad , but old one was basicaly... u know... nothing.
What we can do with her?? Ur example assume that she is with wyches with poisons and other stuff. What she can do? Her characteristic was lower, than an archon has now . Her weapons... don`t make me laugth  lol! . "Pull to base contact model in 2" in from of u... strike last but doubles ur attacks" Only net was pretty same... Now she at leas squads worst nightmare.

Well, maybe back in the 3rd she was cool (haven`t played). But it was then, this comes now. New Lelith is far more deadly (hope she will be cheaper in new dex)  bounce 

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Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 20:10

Devilogical wrote:
But Lelith... Are u serios about this???
I'm as serious as Vect's gift giving policy.

Devilogical wrote:
I agree that she is overpriced (150pts max. IMHO), and has low T and S  Sad , but old one was basicaly... u know... nothing.
If by 'nothing' you mean 'amazing deal that is shockingly cheaper than an identically equipped Archite' then I agree with you.

Devilogical wrote:
What we can do with her??
Stomp faces and look good doing it.

Devilogical wrote:
Ur example assume that she is with wyches with poisons and other stuff.
My example assumes she has her normal loadout - and, yes, is with Wyches as that was her retinue unit.

Devilogical wrote:
What she can do? Her characteristic was lower, than an archon has now .
...no? Her WS was the same, her Init was better, her Ld was better. The only thing she had less of was attacks (by 1) and BS (and...who cares?) Oh...and if you compare wargear it's not even a contest who was a better value. She cost 90 points and started with an Aggie and a Shdowfield and every wych weapon, and drugs.

If she fought a modern Archon she would murder his fool butt barring him getting lucky with a Huskblade.

Devilogical wrote:
Her weapons... don`t make me laugth  lol! . "Pull to base contact model in 2" in from of u... strike last but doubles ur attacks" Only net was pretty same... Now she at leas squads worst nightmare.
Well...first off you're using her from the OG Codex and not the updated Codex. Even if you are using her from the oldest of the old codex only - you're forgetting how the Net interacts with the Hydra Knives. In any case, being equipped with all of the wych weapons in the game is pretty potent.

Devilogical wrote:
Well, maybe back in the 3rd she was cool (haven`t played). But it was then, this comes now. New Lelith is far more deadly (hope she will be cheaper in new dex)  bounce 
I bet old Lelith would kick new Lelith's butt in close combat - I don't even think it would be close.
Let's do the math...


Old Lelith (2nd Edition dex...because I think first edition dex might be even nastier...I dunno)
vs.
New Lelith

They both have fleet, so it's hard to guess who gets the charge.
Old Lelith gets to pick her combat drug (re-roll misses, +1 A., +1 Str., +1 WS, always strikes first, or the 12" assault one) Functionally this gives her a lot of leeway in how to screw with new Lelith, probably 're-rolling misses' is the smart money here. It's either that or 'always strikes first'. I'm not sure really which is better.

If New Lelith gets charge:
New Lelith strikes (counts as WS 5) 5 attacks on charge -1 due to Wych weapons = 4 attacks - 2 hit, 1 wounds = .166 wounds after saves
Old Lelith strikes (loses attack from shardnet effect) - 3 attacks, 2.25 hit, 1.125 wounds = .375 wounds

If Old Lelith gets charge:
New Lelith strikes (counts as WS 5) 4 attacks -1 due to Wych weapons = 3 attacks - 1.5 hit, .75 wounds = .125 wounds after saves
Old Lelith strikes (loses attack from shardnet effect) - 4 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wounds = .5 wounds

All subsequent rounds;
New Lelith strikes (counts as WS 5) 4 attacks -1 due to Wych weapons = 3 attacks - 1.5 hit, .75 wounds = .125 wounds after saves
Old Lelith strikes (loses attack from shardnet effect) - 3 attacks, 2.25 hit, 1.125 wounds = .375 wounds

Statistically neither are that impressive, though Old Lelith is killing her opponent quicker than New Lelith is managing. Not that this should be a shock as everyone should know that new Lelith sucks at dueling other special characters. Of course...this special character costs basically *half* of what New Lelith costs.

And, y'know, that's why I think Lelith got worse.
Even if you want to argue that she stayed about the same...the doubling of the price to field her establishes that she got worse because she certainly got no better.

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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 20:30

Devilogical wrote:
What she can do? Her characteristic was lower, than an archon has now .
...no? Her WS was the same, her Init was better, her Ld was better. The only thing she had less of was attacks (by 1) and BS (and...who cares?) Oh...and if you compare wargear it's not even a contest who was a better value. She cost 90 points and started with an Aggie and a Shdowfield and every wych weapon, and drugs.


Devilogical wrote:
Her weapons... don`t make me laugth  lol! . "Pull to base contact model in 2" in from of u... strike last but doubles ur attacks" Only net was pretty same... Now she at leas squads worst nightmare.
Well...first off you're using her from the OG Codex and not the updated Codex. Even if you are using her from the oldest of the old codex only - you're forgetting how the Net interacts with the Hydra Knives. In any case, being equipped with all of the wych weapons in the game is pretty potent.

Devilogical wrote:
Well, maybe back in the 3rd she was cool (haven`t played). But it was then, this comes now. New Lelith is far more deadly (hope she will be cheaper in new dex)  bounce 

And, y'know, that's why I think Lelith got worse.
Even if you want to argue that she stayed about the same...the doubling of the price to field her establishes that she got worse because she certainly got no better.[/quote]

W8, there two 3rd edition codexes??
Well, in my version she has 6 WS and In. Doesn`t ignore armor, and has less attacks. Ow, w8, with hydraknives she has six. Yay! Yeah, i forgot shadowfield wich is cool stuff, annd drugs are good too, but new Lelith is true gladiator, like the normal wych, so 3+\4+ is probably better, then just 2+ with a chanse of "Ooopsy! What a twist!"

P.s. When i get two girls fight new one wins 5 of 6 at easy.  Surprised

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Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 21:02

Devilogical wrote:
W8, there two 3rd edition codexes??
Yes, there are two 2nd edition codices. it sounds like the one you're referencing is the non-2nd edition white stamped one.

Also, both Lelith and the Archon have WS 7
The Succubus has WS 8 - but if you're comparing Lelith to that thing it's not even close to a contest.

Devilogical wrote:
Well, in my version she has 6 WS and In. Doesn`t ignore armor, and has less attacks.
She has 7 and an Agoniser. An Agoniser is a power weapon and ignores 3+ saves or worse.

Devilogical wrote:
Ow, w8, with hydraknives she has six. Yay!
Depends on her drug. First off, her extra weapon saren't counted, so she actually has 4, with Hydraknives it would be 8, or 10 on the charge, or up to 12 depending on the drug you took.

Devilogical wrote:
Yeah, i forgot shadowfield wich is cool stuff, annd drugs are good too, but new Lelith is true gladiator, like the normal wych, so 3+\4+ is probably better, then just 2+ with a chanse of "Ooopsy! What a twist!"
Old Lelith *also* had 4++ in case of a twist.

Devilogical wrote:
P.s. When i get two girls fight new one wins 5 of 6 at easy.  Surprised
Not according to the math. You're probably just on the edge of a bell curve.

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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 22:02

Well, this is from my print:

110 pts, 7 ws (my bad, wrong directory) 6 bs, 3 S, 3 T, 8!!! W (probably a mistake, so i count her as having 3 W), 3 In (probably a mistake too, so count her as 8 ), 3 At, 9 Ld.

She don`t have an agonizer, only those stupid wyches weaponry (only those hydras can be something), splinter pistol and a shadowfield. No where is said about 4+ inv. No ignore armor.

Old Lelith wins with first combat drug, if i truly remember.
And this why i don`t beleive in math. It`s only numbers - reality can be different at all.

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Succubus Ariel the Vengefull of the Wych cult Blade Denied to her sister, archon Elieae after the conquering Low Commoragh Dark spire.
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PostSubject: Re: Advice for upgrading an old army   Sat May 24 2014, 22:30

Easy guys.

For a start I have the updated 3rd ed codex (so the 4th ed codex) and Lelith was fantastic but I hated wyches (had a different play style) so never fielded her (never even bought her). I much prefered dropping my archon, incubi, master incubus and drahazr into the enemy front line and letting them dismantle everything while raining Disintergrator fire from my ravager into the enemy and going to town with my talos.

I also dont like new Lelith so I wont be getting her. Ive loved your hints and tips but Shes not for me so keep it clean.
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