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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 13:47

What about the rockets of the dark reapers?
They ignore the cover save rolls of moving vehicles, when I remember correctly.
How does that work with the new rules?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 13:49

@Zenotaph wrote:
What about the rockets of the dark reapers?
They ignore the cover save rolls of moving vehicles, when I remember correctly.
How does that work with the new rules?

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

If you're referring to the rumour that 'ignores cover' would be changed to '-2 cover save', it was wrong - Ignores Cover still does exactly what it says on the tin.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:10

Well you're 'forced' to move for a jink anyway, and despite mobility being a great asset it isn't always necessary.

I can see it annoying declaring before they've hit but I don't think the 5+ jink was all awesome anyway over an 5++ the amount of times I've annoyed opponents because they couldn't negate it or male my flyers make snapshots because they weren't forces to jink.

Just different stand points we are coming from I suppose. Do understand your point though

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:11

From what I've read here, you have to say it, when you want to use jink.
And the dark reapers ignore cover from vehicle movement.
So, why use jink here? Or maybe, are there some rules about that in the new rules?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:12

@Zenotaph wrote:
From what I've read here, you have to say it, when you want to use jink.
And the dark reapers ignore cover from vehicle movement.
So, why use jink here? Or maybe, are there some rules about that in the new rules?

I wouldn't think there's any change. Don't use Jink if Dark Reapers are shooting at you!

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:15

Actually, I prefer to shoot them first.  Twisted Evil 

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:47

I think the real nerf is this:

I used to flat out my vehicles often for a 4+ jink, even with flickerfields, either to make them more survivable, or set up my troops for some assaulting/shooting. Now if I do that, my shooting gets staggered the next turn. They've limited our firepower even more with this. I'm not so mad about having to buy flickerfields, I always do, there's too much ignore cover in the game. I'm mad that if I use the same tactics I used to I potentially lose two turns of shooting. One to move into position and one to snapshots.

EDIT: Or in other words, I always lose something. Either a -1 to saves or a -3 to BS. That is a nerf.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:53

Hopefully the new DE-Codex will, well, the best word I can think of is fix this...

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 14:56

I'm really struggling to see anything positive for DE in the changes I've seen so far for 7e.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 15:03

Well to be fair, vehicles exploding on a 7 is great for us. Granted every other army benefits too, but few other armies lose so much of their personnel to explosions. I still think the change is amazing for heavy tanks, iron hands, and daemon engines, those are the guys who really benefited, but losing 50% of your crew 16% of the time is better than losing them 33% of the time. That's with no AP, because my math is lazy.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 15:24

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm really struggling to see anything positive for DE in the changes I've seen so far for 7e.

Likewise.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Well to be fair, vehicles exploding on a 7 is great for us. Granted every other army benefits too, but few other armies lose so much of their personnel to explosions.

My concern is that, even with this, few armies will have trouble destroying our vehicles.

On the other hand, with most of our anti-tank being pretty poor, I often find it difficult to destroy my opponent's vehicles - especially when my own vehicles (and their dark lances) start to die. And, with the new rules, this is only going to get worse.

I fear that more surviving troops will be of little comfort when my opponent has more surviving vehicles and I'm left with very little that can scratch them.


As an aside, I wonder if Reavers - especially ones with Blasters/heat lances - will see less play? I mean, they now have to either sacrifice their jink save or can only snapshot their weapons next turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 15:43

Is the 2d6" movement in the assault phase still available for jetbikes?

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 17:27

@Dragontree wrote:
Well you're 'forced' to move for a jink anyway...

No, you don't need to have moved in order to use Jink.

@Zenotaph wrote:
Is the 2d6" movement in the assault phase still available for jetbikes?

Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 17:44

Flickerfields may be a good thing to take.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 18:08

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Dragontree wrote:
Well you're 'forced' to move for a jink anyway...

No, you don't need to have moved in order to use Jink.

.

I meant in 6th not the new edition, sorry wasn't clear on that
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 18:38

@The Shredder wrote:

As an aside, I wonder if Reavers - especially ones with Blasters/heat lances - will see less play? I mean, they now have to either sacrifice their jink save or can only snapshot their weapons next turn.

Not the Reavers fault, but this will probably mean they'll be most effective bladevaning. Like we didn't have enough AI options...
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 20:07

I have too many questions before I figure out if this is bad or good.

I liked the jink in 6th, but in 7th, though at first glance it looks like a bum deal for us, in reality it is a slight buff. Why? We have flickerfields, other tanks don't. So we can ALWAYS move and shoot at full BS and still have a decent save (for a vehicle) while other armies will be snap shooting at us, meaning they miss a lot more, meaning our vehicles survive longer. A slight buff.

It is not so much what we gain as it is what other armies lose that will make or break us this edition.

What armies do we almost always beat?
Tyranids
Demons
Space Wolves
Most marines period

Overall, did any changes occur that make them better against us? Yes, FMC take only 1 grounding test. Anything make them worse? Oh yes, no charges from flyers, vector strikes nerfed and 1 smash attack. We came out better I think.

What armies do we struggle against?
Eldar
tau

Both nerfed (tau quite a bit) and now they are not battlebrothers. Goodbye to taudar!

I am waiting to read everything before I make a final decision, but I have to say that overall, i feel Dark Eldar came out slightly better. Did you look at the new warlord traits? Sweet!

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 20:22

While other tanks might snap shoot after they Jink, the point is that almost all gun wielding infantry can glance our transports to death. No need for their tanks to fire at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 20:29

@Skulnbonz wrote:
What armies do we struggle against?
Eldar
tau

Both nerfed (tau quite a bit) and now they are not battlebrothers. Goodbye to taudar!  

Could you elaborate a bit more on the nerfs to Tau and Eldar? I don't see many.

Granted, they can no longer be battle brothers, but that was overkill anyway - both are still incredibly strong on their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 21:53

I am not saying it is a cakewalk now by any means, however, our chances against them went up, not down.

Tau:
No more buffmanders joining riptides creating a superunit that rerolls all misses and ignores all cover.

a -2" penalty for charging through cover to get to their gunlines. A lot better than 3d6 - the highest. With our fleet, reaching combat is a lot easier.

A lot of their heavier weapons are not AP2. No more of our vehicles being blown up. The BEST they can do now is glance us to death, which is a huge improvement for us.

And what did they gain to help them against us? Not a single thing comes to mind.


Eldar:
Psychic powers are a LOT harder to cast now. Think about it. At ld 10, my jetseer almost never failed a power, and if he did my grisly trophies were there for the reroll. Now, to cast prescience, a "gimme" before will require 4 dice to equal casting it on leadership 7! And if he fails, he cannot retry.  So seerstars are a thing of the past.

People are saying waveserpents are worse, but I am not buying into that. they are exactly the same to any eldar player that has even an iota of skill.

Ditto the lack of ap2 weapons for eldar. What kills our vehicles the most? is it firedragons? Nope. It is scatterlasers and serpent shields, with an occasional shruiken cannon thrown in. Again, our vehicles are a little better off against them, and we only glanced them to death anyway, so they get no buff.

Their bikes got better, but so did our troops. If our venoms count as scoring and cant be denied because they were bought with troops, we can zoom and contest all over the place too!

But the big downfall is that they are no longer BB with tau. That combo WAS overkill, and believe me, it is a good thing they can no longer be best buds!

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 22:04

Except scatterlaser, shield and SC can still blow us up. They get some many pen that they're bond to get a 6, which will turn into a 7 thanks to our transport behind open top.

How transport will still explode, it's just that they will get less explodes result... unfortunately, one is enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Thu May 22 2014, 23:25

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Tau:
a -2" penalty for charging through cover to get to their gunlines. A lot better than 3d6 - the highest. With our fleet, reaching combat is a lot easier.

Honestly, the penalty for charging through cover rarely bothered me as DE.

Usually I had he manoeuvrability to get around cover, on the rare occasions when I actually included assault units.

Otherwise, I'd be far more concerned about the initiative penalty and overwatch fire - especially against Tau, who can overwatch with anything nearby as well.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

And what did they gain to help them against us? Not a single thing comes to mind.

Perhaps (I haven't seen enough of the new book to know for sure). Sadly though, I think its fair to say that none of the above has taken their edge off against us.

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Eldar:
Psychic powers are a LOT harder to cast now. Think about it. At ld 10, my jetseer almost never failed a power, and if he did my grisly trophies were there for the reroll. Now, to cast prescience, a "gimme" before will require 4 dice to equal casting it on leadership 7! And if he fails, he cannot retry. So seerstars are a thing of the past.

I'll be honest, I haven't been reading much about the new psychic stuff (none of my armies have psykers, so it's about as thrilling to me as changes to the WHFB Magic Phase are to Dwarves). So, I'll take your word that powers are becoming harder to cast (certainly nice if they didn't get anything to compensate).

Thankfully, I don't think I've ever had to face a 'seerstar' - usually Eldar do well enough without one.

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Ditto the lack of ap2 weapons for eldar. What kills our vehicles the most? is it firedragons? Nope. It is scatterlasers and serpent shields, with an occasional shruiken cannon thrown in. Again, our vehicles are a little better off against them, and we only glanced them to death anyway, so they get no buff.

Well, their vehicles are even harder to kill, whilst ours are marginally less fragile.

Probably not much change overall.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Their bikes got better, but so did our troops. If our venoms count as scoring and cant be denied because they were bought with troops, we can zoom and contest all over the place too!

I'd be more confident if our venoms were more survivable.  tongue 

I mean, in comparison, Eldar can have shielded Wave Serpents sitting on objectives.

@Skulnbonz wrote:

But the big downfall is that they are no longer BB with tau. That combo WAS overkill, and believe me, it is a good thing they can no longer be best buds!

Not really. It was just a heavy-handed slap in the face - the real problem was the Battle Brother rules that allowed for so many broken combinations.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 23 2014, 04:50

1 absolute benefit I see is that our Flickerfields get make saves against D-Weapons now.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 23 2014, 10:31

@MurDok wrote:
1 absolute benefit I see is that our Flickerfields get make saves against D-Weapons now.

The negative side is that D-weapons exist.  Rolling Eyes 
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