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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 11:16

Apparently Jink is moving to a 4+ which gives us even more flexibility.

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 11:22

But forces snap-fire on the next turn. Which I assume would pass on to passengers. And Ignores Cover being mooted as a -2 to cover saves will still be everywhere, making us effectively 6+ jink.

Frankly, I think the snap-fire only is enough of a hamstring that flickerfields are DEFINITELY going to be a good option

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 11:42

We should get holo fields equivalent. I saw a mention about cover after flat out but can't find any conformation to it again how it affects.

Caltrops for Reavers are getting superior compared to any gun.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 17:28

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
But forces snap-fire on the next turn. Which I assume would pass on to passengers. And Ignores Cover being mooted as a -2 to cover saves will still be everywhere, making us effectively 6+ jink.

Frankly, I think the snap-fire only is enough of a hamstring that flickerfields are DEFINITELY going to be a good option

Wait a bit. It is very possible that Jink will no longer count as a cover save, but a special save of its own, in which case Ignores Cover won't apply to it. Even if it did, a 6+ jink would still be better than the current 'nothing at all'.

And snap shots are now apparently a -2 to BS skill, which means that we would be hitting things on 5+'s. Not the best, but not as punishing as 6+'s. I expect I'll be doing quite a lot of it anyway even when I don't jink, since we can now move our Raiders 12" and still get in some pretty decent shooting from them! (Unless that has changed too.)
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 18:05

It is hard to apply the current rumors based off our current ruleset.

Sure, Reaver jetbikes seem great! Zooming all over, controlling objectives and auto hitting with caltrops and bladevanes with a 2+ cover save! Whats not to like?
Sadly, you cannot assume that, because skilled rider gives +1 to jink THIS EDITION, it may not be next edition.

Some aspects we CAN take from these rumors will be:
Flickerfields are back. I would gladly pay 10 pts for a constant 5+ with no snapshooting.

Our haywire grenades just became the envy of almost every other army out there.

Shared transports with eldar make things like our grot units bigger and still mobile, but I am more excited to see wraithguard or banshees deploying from a raider!

Farseers just be came an almost auto include in every DE army. Not so much for the buffs, but for the defense.


All in all, the thing that I am most looking forward to seeing is the assault from reserve rules. If we can assault from the webway again, and our eldar cousins can join us... Oh the possibilities!

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 18:57

Rumors mention the IC can be transported in allied transport... not whole units. At least the rumors I saw... so no Grot in WS or WG in raiders.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 19:53

Damn, I got super excited about the Eldar in our transports. Wraithblades out of a raider! That would have changed list building dramatically. But yea it makes more sense that its just ally IC.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 23:53

Depending on how the rules work out and FAQ, bladevaning could be amazing with reavers come 7th edition. Having a good jink save, ignoring snap shots with bladevane (possible? im not sure), and just being annoying by hitting the back models of a unit would be great.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Fri May 16 2014, 23:55

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Panic_Puppet wrote:
But forces snap-fire on the next turn. Which I assume would pass on to passengers. And Ignores Cover being mooted as a -2 to cover saves will still be everywhere, making us effectively 6+ jink.

Frankly, I think the snap-fire only is enough of a hamstring that flickerfields are DEFINITELY going to be a good option

Wait a bit. It is very possible that Jink will no longer count as a cover save, but a special save of its own, in which case Ignores Cover won't apply to it. Even if it did, a 6+ jink would still be better than the current 'nothing at all'.

And snap shots are now apparently a -2 to BS skill, which means that we would be hitting things on 5+'s. Not the best, but not as punishing as 6+'s. I expect I'll be doing quite a lot of it anyway even when I don't jink, since we can now move our Raiders 12" and still get in some pretty decent shooting from them! (Unless that has changed too.)

+7 explosion and -2 BS on snap fire and a 4+ jink? Bring on the splinter racks!

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Sat May 17 2014, 05:01

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
+7 explosion and -2 BS on snap fire and a 4+ jink? Bring on the splinter racks!

Yeah! I don't want to be too optimistic, I've been disappointed before, but this new edition is starting to look really good for us, and that's even without a new codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Sat May 17 2014, 07:00

Yeah, Splinter Racking warriors with a 5+ to hit...that might even fell a FMC.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 09:31

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Apparently Jink is moving to a 4+ which gives us even more flexibility.

Not if we're forced to use our best save (which I hope they remove that current restrictions).....otherwise that may make FF redundant when moving.....or completely change how our army plays. I'd rather spew out Wracks and Grotesques than reroll snapshooting Warriors. But well see what evolves I guess....

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 12:12

@Dethdispenser wrote:
Do you think the chart is bringing back elements of 5th ed?

Where a roll of 6 (5th ed was 5) is a wreck and if ap 2 (+1 to make it a result of 7) it explodes?

Yes and no; yes because the one hit kill is less likely, but no since hull points are there to make sure vehicles tracks or whatever fall off after three dents in their armour.

I have terrible luck destroying vehicles, so I'm not entirely happy about this change.

I'm also not sure if there's much point in taking blasters and dark lances anymore? Maybe it's time (passed time? maybe 6ed was the trigger) to load up on haywire instead, since glancing tanks to death seems much more effective.

I suppose haywire is just like poison for tanks, so fits with our army theme. If only our next codex would allow haywire blasters to be taken in warrior squads... Twisted Evil 
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 12:20

Hull Point loss is pretty much the only way I ever destroy a vehicle as I seem to be physically incapable of rolling more than 2 on the damage table.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 12:22

Haywire is pretty effective but venoms full of wyches tend to explodes when they charge all those IG tanks hiding behind an aegis...
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 12:25

Maybe if 7ed really is harking back to 2ed, we'll be able to throw grenades from everyone in the squad... be still my beating heart.  bounce 

I still remember swooping hawks landing in semicircle formation and blowing each other up with scattering krak grenades. That's what I call forging a narrative! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 12:32

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
swooping hawks landing in semicircle formation and blowing each other up with scattering krak grenades

And people wonder why the Eldar are a dying race!

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 13:13

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I have terrible luck destroying vehicles, so I'm not entirely happy about this change.

I know what you mean. I think I'd be happier about this change if we had a better range of anti-vehicle weapons.

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I'm also not sure if there's much point in taking blasters and dark lances anymore? Maybe it's time (passed time? maybe 6ed was the trigger) to load up on haywire instead, since glancing tanks to death seems much more effective.

Trouble is, I'm not sure we have enough sources of Haywire.

- The Talos gets 1 shot (and you might as well just use the Heat Lance)
- Scourges get 2 per 5 men (which is alright for finishing a vehicle, but far less so for destroying an undamaged one)
- Wyches get more, but need to get into combat with said vehicle and will almost certainly die as a result.

Have I missed any?


Also, Blasters and Dark Lances can also serve other ends - such as being effective against MCs, terminators, Nobz, Paladins, T4 characters etc. Our haywire, on the other hand, is pretty worthless against non-vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 13:25

@The Shredder wrote:
@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I have terrible luck destroying vehicles, so I'm not entirely happy about this change.

I know what you mean. I think I'd be happier about this change if we had a better range of anti-vehicle weapons.

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I'm also not sure if there's much point in taking blasters and dark lances anymore? Maybe it's time (passed time? maybe 6ed was the trigger) to load up on haywire instead, since glancing tanks to death seems much more effective.

Trouble is, I'm not sure we have enough sources of Haywire.

- The Talos gets 1 shot (and you might as well just use the Heat Lance)
- Scourges get 2 per 5 men (which is alright for finishing a vehicle, but far less so for destroying an undamaged one)
- Wyches get more, but need to get into combat with said vehicle and will almost certainly die as a result.

Have I missed any?


Also, Blasters and Dark Lances can also serve other ends - such as being effective against MCs, terminators, Nobz, Paladins, T4 characters etc. Our haywire, on the other hand, is pretty worthless against non-vehicles.

Bloodbrides and trueborn. Archon and succubus. Essentially you can take haywire in every slot. I think the Reaper has it too but I'm not 100% on forgeworld rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 13:41

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Bloodbrides and trueborn. Archon and succubus. Essentially you can take haywire in every slot.

You can, but I'm not sure you'd want to.

I mean, whilst I might take Haywire on my HQ, it's hardly something I'd want to rely on - and there's a good chance I'll be throwing that HQ (and his unit) to the wolves in order to use his/her haywire.

What I said about Wyches applies to Bloodbrides and Trueborn as well - you have to get into melee with your target vehicle (hardly a given), and you're likely sacrificing your unit to do it.

Don't get me wrong - I can appreciate the use of such units against Land Raiders or the like, but I really wouldn't want to rely on it as my only source of anti-vehicle weaponry.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 13:59

We're in a weird way right now, I wouldn't suggest taking haywire as your only form of anti-tank either, but I'll be honest, it's the bulk of mine. Mainly because our dark light weapons have become so outclassed by other weapons recently, and haywire is so much more effective at taking out vehicle targets. I've dropped ravagers, I use 2 voidravens and a Talos w/ chain flails and CCW these days. I find them to be more versatile and a tad more survivable, and a little more consistent. I still haven't tried my suicide bride squad idea, in place of blasterborn, because it's hard to make the switch, but in theory I do like a squad that costs half as much and is more effective at what I bring the blasterborn for.

I do realize that in my list I don't have any decent anti-tank measures until at least turn two, but I find it easier to plan around that than 9 badly rolled ravager shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 15:29

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
We're in a weird way right now, I wouldn't suggest taking haywire as your only form of anti-tank either, but I'll be honest, it's the bulk of mine. Mainly because our dark light weapons have become so outclassed by other weapons recently, and haywire is so much more effective at taking out vehicle targets.

I might try adding some more Haywire stuff in my army, and see how it works (my current armies are almost exclusively shooting, so wych squads don't really fit in very well). Out of interest, what sources of haywire do you include in your armies?

Regardless, I too find the current state of our weaponry quite depressing. Compared to virtually every other army, ours just seem to lack bite. Our anti-vehicle weapons are one-shot (making them horrible against fliers), and basically capped at S8 (one-shot items aside) - whereas other races get S9-10 weapons, and even large blasts at that strength.

Similarly, whilst poisoned shooting is an interesting idea, I strongly feel that the downsides are starting to outweigh the advantages. We can't hurt vehicles, and we're much worse against anything with T3 - this in an army that's already very light on blasts and flamers. Then there's the issue that we seem to have a poor selection of special weapons as a result, which basically limits us to 'poison or blasters' on most units (with no middle-ground weapons like Plasmaguns, or any flamer option). Worse still, more MCs seem to be getting 2+ saves - meaning we'd be better off just dark-lancing the sods.


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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 15:40

[Mod Hat]Deleted your double post [/Mod Hat]

I tend to agree but it's not just the lack of variety and power in our weaponry either. We have almost no means of twin-linking any of our weapons and very few are twin-linked naturally. We have very little that ignores cover and pretty much all of that is very short ranged. Our poison is as often a hindrance as it is a benefit. We have almost no AA capability.

Would very much like to see a major overhaul of our wargear in any new codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 15:57

@Count Adhemar wrote:
[Mod Hat]Deleted your double post [/Mod Hat]

Cheers.  Smile 

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I tend to agree but it's not just the lack of variety and power in our weaponry either. We have almost no means of twin-linking any of our weapons and very few are twin-linked naturally. We have very little that ignores cover and pretty much all of that is very short ranged. Our poison is as often a hindrance as it is a benefit. We have almost no AA capability.

Would very much like to see a major overhaul of our wargear in any new codex.

I agree. It's a shame, because I really like the flavour of a lot of our stuff... I just don't think it holds up well.

I think one annoyance is that we have very few specialist weapons - most are just generalist ones that suck in a lot of roles. e.g. Most of our heavy weapons are based around the dark lance statline (i.e. S8 AP2 Lance). However, against light tanks/transports, the 'Lance' aspect is worthless - they're just expensive S8 guns (compare this to marine armies - which get assault cannons, auto cannons, rockets etc.). Against heavier tanks, Lance is useful, but the lack of AP1 really hurts. I feel this is especially true with Blasters and Blast Pistols - where I often find myself wishing for meltas instead. Also, against terminators and the like, they're pretty inefficient as 1-shot weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Vehicles exploding on 7+   Tue May 20 2014, 17:15

I mostly include haywire wyches, about 3-4 squads, and then I have 2-3 Kabalite squads that might attempt to score end game. And if the haywire wyches are not needed they just ride around in their venoms until turn four or five. I also run reaver squads with heat lances pretty often. To be honest heat lances might currently (and this will probably change in 4 days) be our best anti-tank weapon. Melta, AP1, Lance makes a lot of things explode. But it's even harder to equip those onto units as only 3 units have them. The talos, who doesn't need it, without any upgrades he's going to average like three S10 smash attacks. And scourges, who are overpriced and underwhelming. Reavers tend to overextend when using the heatlances which often turns them into a suicide squad as well.

Just started drooling over the thought of four trueborn holding heat lances in a venom with retrofire jets, murdering imperial knights and land raiders. Alas, it was not to be.

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