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 New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Thu May 15 2014, 19:31

We are still in the realms of rumours so dispelling mechanic is uncertain, but from what I read, I understood that if the Farseer rolls 3 successess and needs 3 successes to cast the spell, you only need to cancel ONE of his successess to dispel the spell. That is why dispelling is 6+ and not 4+.

Anyway, psykers are quite powerful now and I believe they need bit nerfing. The Seer will be still pretty powerful as he will most probably be able to cast 2-3 powerful spells, while the opponent will be able to dispel maybe 1 without his own psyker. With his own psyker, I could understand that they almost even themselves out.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Thu May 15 2014, 19:32

Unbound armies cannot contest objectives. Which is a laughable disadvantage vs. 2 revenant titans... Anyone playing unbound will be going for the complete annihilation of the enemy. He won't bother with VPs. :-)

EDIT: Sorry for double post. My hands were too quick.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Thu May 15 2014, 19:57

@aurynn wrote:
Unbound armies cannot contest objectives. Which is a laughable disadvantage vs. 2 revenant titans... Anyone playing unbound will be going for the complete annihilation of the enemy. He won't bother with VPs. :-)

EDIT: Sorry for double post. My hands were too quick.


Well, with current FOC it`s not as laughable as it seems. Enemy can take five "Riptides", four Helldrakes etc.

P.s. Revenant is nothing! Read the rules for Trancendent C`tan. Now THIS would be a pain in some place  Embarassed 

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Dethdispenser
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Thu May 15 2014, 20:08

Back on target: If you haven't seen


Interesting watch.

Screen shots of the videos:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/05/40k-jervis-talks-7th-edition-psychic.html
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Thu May 15 2014, 21:26

@aurynn wrote:
Unbound armies cannot contest objectives. Which is a laughable disadvantage vs. 2 revenant titans... Anyone playing unbound will be going for the complete annihilation of the enemy. He won't bother with VPs. :-)

EDIT: Sorry for double post. My hands were too quick.

Except that D weapons now only ignore invulnerable/cover saves on a to-wound roll of 6. And apparently VPs can be earned during the game, not just at the end of it. And you require your opponent's consent. But I totally agree that Unbound is just free for all 40K mayhem, even more mini-Apocalypse than the game is now. And you can make some pretty disgusting lists with it.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Fri May 16 2014, 07:14

Guys, that was an example. I know that 2 Revenant Titans are not the worst thing one can face.

Anyway, as to the Psychic Phase and within boundaries of FOC, I was talking to my CWE friend yesterday. Eldrad, LOLseer and 3 Warlocks, combined with cheapy cheap Eldar spells and we can forget about dispelling, with the list still having points for the "standard" CWE ugliness...

Especially when Eldar seers will move, cast, move (battle focus - or turboboost in the case of LOLseer)... Even we will have tough time getting them into view.

Another - Space Wolves - 2 runepriests in Drop Pod armies. Drop - JAWS - win!

The more I think of it, the Unbound armies with Low-Lvl psykers are not a problem. Those with Alpha-striking or easily hidden powerful psykers are a problem.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Fri May 16 2014, 23:11

Heres a combo that might be worth running, depending on psychic presence in your area. Requires allies:

Irillyth or shadow spectres unit with 'shadow of death' power (units within 12" take Ld and moral checks on 3d6 discarding the lowest).

DS or move any of the above within 12" of as many enemy psykers as possible. Also DS or move within range a haemie in raider with TGL and unleash crucible of malediction.

Each psyker tests on -1 LD with 3d6 or is removed from play.

Just an idea.


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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Fri May 16 2014, 23:33

@Barking Agatha wrote:
That's a weird-looking thing.

I don't think spells will be that easy to dispel. As I understood it, you need 4+'s to cast spells but you need 6+'s to cancel successes. So if an eldar sightseer rolls 5 dice and gets 3 successes, you would need to roll three sixes to deny his witch. Which is fine, because otherwise the sightseer would be pretty lame.

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
I'm not too worried. If psykers become the be-all and end-all we always have the crucible of malediction to fall back on. Any psyker in the game has AT BEST a 50/50 shot of surviving the crucible...

Because... they either survive, or they don't, so it's fifty-fifty?

Because the average dice roll of 3d6 is 10.5. Statistically, 10 and 11 have the same probability of occurring, in the middle of the range, which means that you have a 50% chance of rolling 10 or less on 3 dice. Since leadership caps at 10, a leadership 10 psyker will have a 50/50 shot of surviving, anything Ld9 or below is more likely to be removed from play than it is to remain. Bonus points if you manage to get Fateweaver this way.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 04:48

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
Because the average dice roll of 3d6 is 10.5.

That isn't how the Crucible of Pray-for-a-Miracle works, I'm afraid. When you activate it, ever psyker within a distance of 3D6 inches tests Leadership (on 2D6, as normal).

If it worked that way it really would be good! Smile


Last edited by Barking Agatha on Sat May 17 2014, 15:10; edited 3 times in total
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 09:54

If we remain BB with CWE, that's a buff to us just because our allied Seer can dispel ugly divination which makes Daemonic deathstars with re-rollable 2++ playable. Splinterfire can do the rest.

And, please, please, don't use the crucible. It's a trap. Any halfway competent player won't let you burn his psyker he's trying to keep alive that way. However, daemons usually come to you, and it's quite easy to get them in range of TGL and Crucible... and then just watch them passing every single test  Very Happy
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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 14:33

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Panic_Puppet wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
Because the average dice roll of 3d6 is 10.5.

That isn't how the Crucible of Pray-for-a-Miracle works, I'm afraid. When you activate it, ever psyker within a distance of 3D6 inches tests Leadership (on 2D6, as normal).

If it worked that way it really would be good! Smile

Derp. Somehow got it into my head that BOTH were 3d6... mixing up with Casket of Flensing which has everything randomised. Thanks for the correction Smile
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 16:30

@Hijallo wrote:
And, please, please, don't use the crucible. It's a trap. Any halfway competent player won't let you burn his psyker he's trying to keep alive that way.

Hm, sounds a bit arrogant to me. But it could be the usual misunderstanding with the english language...
Any halfway competent player might not have the chance, since his abilities aren't always going to keep his psykers away from us.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 16:41

I dont think it was meant as arrogance. It was a simplification of a much broader problem - that the Crucible is not competitive tool. Because it is quite situational and you have to devote part of your tactic to its use, which might hurt you in the rest of the game. And in case of psyker heavy armies it creates a primary target with big "X" painted on it. It has limited range that is easily avoided too, so yes... it is a trap and it will work in that big badda boom way only very rarely. And considering haemi carrying crucible and his delivery system is worth quite a lot...

I believe that we, DE, rely on target saturation and anything that creates easy targetting choices for our enemies is not worth the points.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 16:48

@Zenotaph wrote:
Any halfway competent player might not have the chance, since his abilities aren't always going to keep his psykers away from us.

Well, how close are you planning to get?

One problem is the random range. On average, you should be alright if you can get within 10", but then all you need is a bad roll and your item wiffs.

Then, even if said psykers are in range, you're looking for them to fail Ld tests on Ld9/10. So, even if you hit your target psyker, he'll only actually fail his test 1/12 times (1/6 for Ld9).

And, this item is usable once per game. So, even if you always hit a psyker with it, on average it will work once ever 6 games at best.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 16:59

@The Shredder wrote:
Well, how close are you planning to get?

24". Perfect range for splinterfire. Very Happy 
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

And yes, the crucible isn't playable the way, you describe it. As sad, as it sounds...

@The Shredder wrote:
I believe that we, DE, rely on target saturation and anything that creates easy targetting choices for our enemies is not worth the points.

I can sign this from the bottom of my small, dark and vengeful heart.

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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 18:17

I am with Shredder on this. I've taken the crucible about half a dozen times against a grey knight player to try to use on him.

I've really only gotten it off once. And he made his leadership check. So I don't really consider it worth the 20 points for it.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 18:30

You don't necessaryily need to actually kill a psyker with the crucible just have the threat of it and its potential threat bubble. Using this threat you might be able to actually control your enemy psykers by keeping them at arms length. Not everything needs to be a direct kill ability. You have to think beyond this.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 19:02

@ligolski wrote:
You don't necessaryily need to actually kill a psyker with the crucible just have the threat of it and its potential threat bubble. Using this threat you might be able to actually control your enemy psykers by keeping them at arms length. Not everything needs to be a direct kill ability. You have to think beyond this.

But that's the thing - it's not a big enough threat to actually concern most psykers. Unmodified Ld tests are not scary - especially once-per-game ones with a random and severely-limited range.

Furthermore, the psykers that concern me the most are usually the ones who are only too happy to keep their distance - like the ones who just sit back and just cast fortune (or some other buff) every turn.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 21:04

@The Shredder wrote:
Furthermore, the psykers that concern me the most are usually the ones who are only too happy to keep their distance - like the ones who just sit back and just cast fortune (or some other buff) every turn.
Which will change more or less, now that we will be able to dispel anything that is cast anywhere on the board. I believe we need to see the dispelling mechanic first, before arguing what to do with psykers. :-) And Divination and spells overall should be nerfed. Lets wait and see.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 21:15

@aurynn wrote:
Which will change more or less, now that we will be able to dispel anything that is cast anywhere on the board.

It might, but I doubt it - force multipliers like that are almost always stronger than outright offensive powers.

Also, even if it does change, it still won't make the crucible worth a damn.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sat May 17 2014, 22:34

@The Shredder wrote:
Also, even if it does change, it still won't make the crucible worth a damn.

Agreed.
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Dethdispenser
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sun May 18 2014, 01:29

It's not competitive but it is fun off the unknown. It may or may not work lol. Just a dice game.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Sun May 18 2014, 11:23

Crucible is fun, if not the be all and end all of psychic defence. But hey, the best form of defence is attack, right?

I'm not at all concerned about the new psychic phase. In fact, if the rumours are accurate, psykers are getting nerfed.

The best option to efficiently manifest psychic powers will be to cast as many warp charge 1 powers as possible by throwing 1 dice at each. This means that half succeed. Compare that with the previous edition, where a Ld 9 or 10 check is often available, and the odds of failure were only 1/6 - 1/12.

Now, even allowing for the bonus primaris power, the average army will get to have a crack at each WC1 power it has, plus d6 extra, all failing at 50%. At best, psykers will push out no more than two thirds of the powers that they manifesting previously, and will also suffer from sharply diminishing returns. After the 4th psyker, that extra primaris power offers only versatility, because you don't have the warp charge to cast it. WC 2 or 3 powers? Be prepared to sacrifice getting a lot of WC1 powers off to even try and cast it.

And that's before accounting for denying.

Seriously, there is nothing at all for us to worry about.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Mon May 19 2014, 01:49

Psykers are not getting nerfed. Plenty of armies are now capable of upwards of 30 mastery levels all the way to over 40. Then add that d6. Now consider that if you don't invest in psykers yourself you are relying entirely on that d6 for protection. So the roll comes up 1 or 2.. hell even 3-4 won't do anything. Meanwhile powers are looking stronger, witchfires have no limit on number you can cast or at how many targets.
Not doom saying, just saying.. anyone who played whf when armies like VCs had no dice cap will remember. They could burn through 3 scroll caddies plus defense dice in two phases. Expect similar. If your local environment or tourneys decide to go psyker heavy you will absolutely need your own.
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PostSubject: Re: New Psycher Phase - How will Dark Eldar match up   Mon May 19 2014, 04:02

Ultimately a unit will only know 1-3 powers based on their ML (generally). This alone is a cap on the amount of powers cast and if they fail the results can be catastrophic. There is much risk and reward still. We will have to see how risky things will get...hopefully it can be fairly severe! I don't think you will see more powers than what was possible before being cast.

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