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 Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?

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Zenotaph
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PostSubject: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Fri May 02 2014, 11:01

I was thinking. Well, that happens from time to time, so nothing out of the ordinary,
but this time, I had a look at the GW homepage. Ok, no question, the most iconic Army there
are the Space Marines in all of their incarnations. So, how to work out my point?

Lets take the Marines as the firstborn son. They got all and I mean really all.
Every single peace of the codex, except one. The master of the forge.
They got bitpacks, shoulderpads, Weapons and Armor Upgrades, et cetera, et cetera...
Take the other armies: Tau, Eldar, heck, even Necrons have one.

And what about us? What do we have? An Archon with no parts to upgrade, Succubus as well,
not to talk about all the other kits. We can't even upgrade our Inccubi, without tinkering.

So what is my point here? Are we really that unpopular? The Quasimodos of 40k?
Strike the last one. That, we are...

What are the designers of GW thinking? "Hey, whats up, today?" "We have to do some new Dark Eldar..."
" Hm, I got an idea: Let's do some Space Marines instead!"

It's not, that I just want to complain. I want to know, why we are like the adopted,
unloved, fat, ugly boy, that no one want to be friends with...
So, any thoughts? Ideas? Anything?

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deep-sea-captain
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Fri May 02 2014, 11:15

I wouldn't say where the unloved ones... Have you met the Sisters of Battle? Only metal models that haven't been changed since the release of 3rd edition I think (the models in the rulebook look the same at least), a white dwarf codex followed by a digital codex, ouch.

And Dark Eldar did just kind of get a massive model overhaul, we're talking literally a re-release of the entire range, it was huge and I think unheard off in GW history and yet to be repeated. Compared to what other armies have gotten in terms of model releases Dark Eldar are laughing. Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc got a few new kits, we got an entire new model range. And sure we don't have any of the multi kits or anything, but if you look at the release stuff from when the Dark Eldar were released again that make it very clear the kits and pieces were designed to be interchangeable, you can use reaver bits, with kabalites, with Wyches on your Archon etc. Its great, I reckon we got it pretty good.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Fri May 02 2014, 11:20

Well it's really a vicious cycle.

See a long time ago, the game was even more broken. At least, what I hear. Things have always been unbalanced, I mean there hasn't been much real effort to balance out it. The balance often favored certain armies.

Now, to start fluff wise. People love playing humans, so they can picture themselves being heros.  So already the human armies sell more. Second the people at GW simply will favor the armies they feel are their babies the most, and well, space marines.

So anyways. Unbalance already existed, and most of the people who play don't' seem to play for what army they like the fluff of or the appearance as much as the army that 'wins the games'. Many players turn to the armies and styles of play that win. GW also has a nasty habit of not paying attention to it's buyers.

So what do we get? Beer Goggle eyes looking at the numbers. People bought those armies more! Clearly they must like them more so we'll release more on them because clearly they are the player favorite. Rather then realizing the imbalance created player favoritism. Suddenly, the armies that are popular because they get all the cool stuff, gets all the cool stuff because they where broken already and now are stronger. While armies that where already suffering fall behind because they are only touched based on sells which are already bad.

Now the numbers look worse, profits rise on specific armies, and the beer goggle effect continues round and round.

But as DSC has pointed out, we do have this nice model range we got that has plenty of interchangeable parts. I was unaware the other armies didn't have that. Heh.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Fri May 02 2014, 11:51

Hm, I'm not sure about that, since I don't have acces to my White Dwarfs momentarily,
but didn't get almost all Space Marine Kits an overhaul, when the new codex came out?
Tactikal Squads, Sternguard, Vanguard Veterans, Scoutbikes...
Except for most HQ's, that is. But the last ones of these came out pretty late, didn't they?

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sat May 03 2014, 02:06

Nomad wrote:
Well it's really a vicious cycle.
So anyways. Unbalance already existed, and most of the people who play don't' seem to play for what army they like the fluff of or the appearance as much as the army that 'wins the games'. Many players turn to the armies and styles of play that win. GW also has a nasty habit of not paying attention to it's buyers.

I don't think thats actually the case, and if it was my experience with the game I wouldn't be playing. There is a very vocal minority that make up competitive players and those you buy armies just to win. I'm pretty sure the majority of players play armies they like with their friends who do the same, they are not unhappy with the game and don't complain online all of the time (that describes everyone I know that plays, I don't know anyone else who posts on forums even).

Quote :

but didn't get almost all Space Marine Kits an overhaul, when the new codex came out?

No, they got a few new kits. None of their vehicles were changed. The Tactical Squad was updated and the veteran boxes were updated and changed to plastic. I'm pretty sure the SM bike squad and attack bike are the same as the ones I got back in the 3rd edition battleforce.
You've also got to remember that Space Marines are the special case for Gamesworkshop, its the poster child of their company, they have to keep it up to date and at top quality, its their most important investment.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sat May 03 2014, 09:34

We've had different experiences.
But I'm also half-appling what I've seen at a dozen other games to this one assuming the process repeats. It seems to. I see this in MTG all the time, and I have a group who play competitively, and a group who play for the fluff and it's a very different experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sat May 03 2014, 16:10

As noted, the Sisters of Battle have it far worse, while Squat players don't even have an army anymore.

Even Orks, who are definitely A-listers in a lot of ways, have a hugely outdated codex and plenty old, old models.

So, no, I can't agree, plus some would say the Warhammer Universe contains the specialist games, they died, and so on.

I feel that people would be best advised to stop fixating on the Space Marines' collective status as game champion and start considering what their army actually has. We're doing ok right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sat May 03 2014, 16:19

If you go on TheTyranidHive, we all think that GW hates us, that we had loads of units without models, that we are overdue for new kits, etc.

If you go on the Blood Angels section of B&C, everyone there feels unloved.

Meanwhile, on the Ork forums, there are players who feel badly supported by GW...

It's almost as if there is some sort of pattern emerging on dedicated forums...  jocolor 
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 04 2014, 06:19

This whole thread is just to make CSM players feel unloved for the lack of model support (or just plain dumb models) for their Chaos Lords, Chaos Spawn, Oblits and Mutilators isn't it?!?!

Just kidding.
But yeah, everybody's feeling like GW has neglected their army, it ain't just us glorious DE warbands.
And we've got some of the damn prettiest models in the entire GW line, IMO!

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 04 2014, 13:21

Laughingcarp wrote:
And we've got some of the damn prettiest models in the entire GW line, IMO!

I'm fully aware of that. My point is: Where others can remodel their minis, we must.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 04 2014, 15:52

The nail that sticks out gets hammered.... With that said I love that Space Marines get all the attention, it makes my Dark Eldar all the more surprising for people to play against.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 04 2014, 18:56

Meh, it feels a little worse for us, or rather scares us more because of how the army was treated prior to the re-release, i.e. 10 years without an update. That being said, a lot of armies do feel neglected.

My major gripe, and we're not alone here, is the lack of digital releases. They cost jack-all to do, and it would be a quick way to make money and keep outdated armies interesting. Yet most digital releases are for armies that already have new codexes... codices?

On the unloved part though, I'd say we're doing pretty good for an army that wouldn't have existed without fan conversions anyway. And if GW didn't forget wood elves, I'm sure we'll get our turn again.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 04 2014, 19:37

We got a whole new range of models, a fully updated codex with nearly all new fluff, a trilogy of BL books (even though I don't like them) with our last update and we're one of the xenos races... I really think we could be worse off. Very Happy

Yeah, we haven't been updated for a while, but that time will be here eventually.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Mon May 05 2014, 07:25

Our range of miniatures is easily the best one. We have nothing to envy space meringues, tau, eldar, or anyone else as far as that goes, and a lot of effort must have gone into making it, so we're hardly 'unloved'!

On the other hand our rules are somewhat outdated and GW isn't in any hurry to update them, and we are hardly ever featured in their artwork, publicity, publications, and so on. In GW's view, we are not considered 'iconic'. As they see it, their iconic models are the space meringues. They believe (rightly or wrongly) that the public perceives them as 'the company that makes the space meringues'. Chaos is also considered iconic, and to a lesser extent, things like orks, eldar, and tyranids. Dark Eldar are viewed as 'alternative' eldar, i.e., not the main focus or even near it.

That is GW management though. The designers are closer to us fans, and they must have some love for the dark eldar, or we wouldn't have the amazingly cool models that we have. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Tue May 06 2014, 08:09

Fair, Zenotaph.
But while we don't get HQ kits that come with weapon options, etc, (or some HQ kits at all Sad ) our line of minis IS rather easy to adapt and convert. Pieces from one infantry kit fit generally seamlessly with pieces from a different kit. Heads, hands, guns, all have somewhere to draw from for us to create awesome kit-bashed conversions.
That said, don't think for a second I'm not also wishing we had kits that came with everything!

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Tue May 06 2014, 09:18

Would have preferred a Razorwing/Voidraven dual kit. Wouldn't surprise me now if we lost the Voidraven in the next codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Tue May 06 2014, 16:31

I'm willing to bet we keep the void raven. Possibly a repackage to make it work with the razorwing kit in the same vein as ravager being an 'upgrade' to the raider (same kit with an extra sprue). What I would -really- like is for the razorwing to shift to FA.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Wed May 07 2014, 12:33

I am kinda new, so i have not felt the horrors of a 11 year update cycle. But i can say that the models DE have are probably the best looking of all WH40k. There are a few problems though, mostly because of Resin being Resin. I really dislike working with it, it feels cheap, detailed and there is a lot of casting mistakes on the models (When a model takes as long to clean from molding mistakes as it takes to paint, something is not right). Other than that i do not like that some models we are supposed to take in groups of 3-10 (Wracks/Grotesques) are either single pose or have a low amount of poses available. Coming from CSM i feel limited in the modelling options.

Unloved is a bit of a overstatement, i just think that GW hyped themselves up too much when it came to resin during the late -00 years and since the DE codex was released around the same time. DE got a lot of new and very nice looking models at that time, just made from the wrong material.
Luckily for us, there is a rumor floating around about new Wracks/Grotesques, and a new unit. (Source: Natfka over at Faeit), so the tide may be turning a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Wed May 07 2014, 12:37

Quote :
There are a few problems though, mostly because of Resin being Resin.

As a Craftworld Eldar player, I know that feeling. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Wed May 07 2014, 14:08


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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Wed May 07 2014, 19:06

I see your point. And I truly agree. Maybe it was a bit harsh, to say unloved, wasn't it.
And since I play DE as well, I stick to remodel, until new parts are available.

Aside the topic: You guys are having trouble with failcast as well? Sitting one hour over a single miniature,
just with a brush of liquid greenstuff is, well, give me two painmarkers next game for that...

Hm, the new models: I don't think, they come. There's just no evidence. Only rumor. But if they come,
I'm the first to buy them.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Fri May 09 2014, 07:44

Maybe the fact that they put a data sheet in the new WD might be an indication of things to come. I know that when they released the DE, I bought a huge army with a lot of the pewter models, thankfully, and then had to get more in the horrible falicast but over all the plastics are awesome. As for playability, until 6th came out, DE were a very competitive army but then new rules and not so much. I field my army every once in a while but just in real friendly games, for fun. Now if I wanted to change my play style I could maybe build an uber type list but that would involve buying more models I don't want. Right now with the eve of the new edition, I'm waiting to see what will get fixed in the rules as well as more broken. I remain hopeful.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 11 2014, 11:55

we did have a good run when the codex was released though. a complete model overhaul which was just fantastic.
and for about 12 months after we had a fair bit of love from GW, so much so that some ppl i know were complaining about it Smile
but since then the love has died, no bomber, no special characters.
But with codex's getting pumped out uber fast, and with 6.5 rules the on way we could be getting a new book in the next 12 months.
Really only a few models to get out, plus the mandatory "big" model and a few rules upgrades
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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Sun May 11 2014, 12:45

I would love to get a plastic conversion kit. Demiglaive, some haemi weapons, Hexrifle, that fits to a haemi miniature,
Djinnblade and maybe some arcane gear...

But I don't see that coming.

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PostSubject: Re: Are we the unloved children in the Warhammer Universe?   Wed May 14 2014, 02:31

A new unit without the risk of a whole new codex? Yes, please!
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