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Mngwa
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PostSubject: The Harlequin Topic   Fri Apr 04 2014, 13:32

Feel free to suggest, comment and have any other kind of discussion related to how harlequins could be made competitive instead of the very poor melee choice they are.

So, I have been thinking of getting these guys as I am about to expand my list to 1500 points and want a more melee-oriented army. I know they are not great, and I had secretly hoped the new CWE codex would change that, but noooo.
That wont stop me from trying them out, though, and I am still hoping the next DE codex will do something.

My ideas for rule changes:
All model stats remain the same.
Point costs remain the same.

Holo-suit is changed in the following: A model with a holo-suit has a +5 invulnerable save, which is improved to +4 against shooting attacks.

New item, feel free to suggest a name but I will call it:
Improved Holo-suit: A model with an improved holo-suit has a +4 invulnerable save, which is improved to +3 against shooting attacks.
^The troupe master is granted one of these for free when upgrading it.

Next up...

Bone Plates: A model with Bone Plates has a +3 armour save.
This goes for the Death Jester (but he would still keep the regular holo-suit). Feel free to suggest a better name.

Mask of Telltales: A model with a Mask of Telltales, as well as the unit she has joined, pass Deny the Witch-rolls on a +4. In addition, A model with a Mask of Telltales may reroll any number of dice for psychic tests.
Shadowseer. This makes her a bit more buffy for the unit.

Heralds's Staff: A model with this weapon may reroll to hit and has the special rule "Poisonous (+3)" against models with the daemon-special rule.
Also for the shadowseer. Harlequins need more anti-chaos weapons.



That's it.
I was also thinking for some nice harlequin character, since some of them work alone, but I think this would be a nice buff for the current unit.

Thoughts? Overpowered? Still underpowered?
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: The Harlequin Topic   Wed Apr 09 2014, 10:23

Quick stuff I came up with recently. Not tested or anything, just initial ideas:

Holo-Suit: 3++ in CC, 4++/4+ cover at range

They're far too easily killed at the moment, they're supposed to be ridiculously hard to hit. If a Wych gets a 4++ in close combat, a Harlequin in a Holo-Suit should get 3++. I made the ranged save both invulnerable and cover. Invulnerable because having a weapon that Ignores Cover isn't going to help if you're shooting in the wrong place. This is the reasoning for Flickerfields, and they're literally personal Flickerfields. Cover because that way the Shadowseer can improve it. Holo-Suits and psychic distortion working in concert sounds about right. It also encourages template and torrent weapons more. The proliferation of Ignores Cover weapons has made template weapons less relevant. Harlequins will be a good reason to keep using them.

Dance of Death: Also Rending on charge

They need the Rending to hit decently hard, and it doesn't make sense for the Harlequin's Kiss to do that when it's on a roll to wound. Wow, it shows how dated their rules are when we're still talking about the shift from 4th to 5th. I really can't believe they didn't update them in the new Eldar codex, totally bizarre.

Harlequin's Kiss: Rend causes Instant Death or 2 wounds to MCs, up to 2 per Troupe (like Fusion Pistols) + Troupe Master.

Makes it do what it's meant to be for in the fluff and gives it a purpose while not making you have the whole unit with them. It looks a bit silly having the whole unit with Harlequin's Kisses, much better to only have a couple of them in each Troupe, keeps the variety the Harlequins are known for.

Shadowseer: Mastery Level 2, Ghosthelm, Witchblade, replace Veil of Tears with Conceal and Doom

They're supposed to be extremely powerful psykers and scriers of fate so they should be a higher Mastery Level and have Doom. Their backstory has always been that they can tell anyone their fate and can bring it about. Ghosthelm and Witchblade because they're Eldar psykers so should have them.

Preferred Enemy: Daemons

I did consider Preferred Enemy: Chaos, but I don't see why they would be any better against Marines following chaos than Marines following the Emperor.

Not sure on the points costs yet. The certainly aren't worth it as they are though.

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"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: The Harlequin Topic   Sat Nov 01 2014, 18:08

I completely forgot I had this topic O.o

Anyway. New codex, they are gone.


But. I wan't to expand on this with new ideas (some good ones above too, they really should have Preferred Enemy: Daemons even if it isn't that much)


So, first off, don't bring them back. Keep them only in the eldar codex. I feel like they couldn't be changed too much very easily if it would affect two codices that get a new version at different times.

Then, going back to the first post, either lower their point-cost (especially on the upgraded characters) or make the holo-suits better against shooting (but still make the upgraded characters a little cheaper...) because to me it makes sense that it is difficult to aim at a distorted target when at range but easier to slash them in melee.
I would also like to see some additional tricks with the special characters like the mask and staff for the shadowseer (although if she would have them, she could probably keep the same cost at upgrading her). Also Death Jester with BS5

Next, new suggestions for special rules:


First one. If the army includes both a detachment of Dark Eldar and Eldar, the harlequins do not take an elite slot.
A minor change, will help if you want to take eldar allies and have fire dragons or something.

Next up:

Blessings of Cegorach
The Eldar race comes forth on to war as a whole again, and the harlequins are sure to enforce it to fullest. As they exit the webway, they feel their spirit growing.

A unit of harlequins (including all the characters) and any characted added to the squad in an army with both eldar and dark eldar gain +1T (normally bringing them to T4) and Feel no Pain. If they are joined by both an eldar and dark eldar Independent Character, the whole unit receives Feel no Pain (4+) and +1S as long as both are joined to the squad.


There, the big thing. They most certainly should have something to work along with their lore of uniting the two factions.


So, would you take them with these changes? What else would you change, what change would you drop?

How much would you drop their points? Would you keep their points the same or higher if they receive these bonuses (the special rules and the 4++/5++ Holosuit).
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: The Harlequin Topic   Sat Nov 01 2014, 19:15

I would make a dataslate for a Harlequin Troupe detachment rather than keep them in any other codex.

It would be cool to have them turn up to help other chaos/daemon fighters like the Grey Knights as well as Dark Eldar and Corsairs, not necessarily in the company of Craftworlders.

My most recent thoughts were:
3++ in CC, 4++ and 4+ cover (purely to work with conceal) at range, dance of death also rending on charge, preferred Enemy: Daemons

Harlequin's kiss +6pts, rend causes ID or 2 wounds to MCs

Shadowseer: +20pts, +1W, ML2, ghosthelm, witchblade, conceal, doom


I wanted to make Shadowseers more of a proper character choice in the same vein as Spiritseers but obviously more combat based. I'm also of the opinion that all Eldar psykers should have ghosthelms. The Eldar are concerned with preserving every one of them, they aren't like the Imperium who saves such precautions for those of higher rank. They wouldn't dream of endangering the souls of their fellows so recklessly.

The same idea would go to the Troupe Master, making him similar to a Succubus.

_________________
"Oh how awful, did he at least die painlessly? To shreds you say? Well, how's his Dracon holding up? To shreds you say? Very well then... Sad, sad, terrible gruesome news about my colleague Archon Mhu'bhutu." - 'The Feather', Dracon of the Bladed Lotus
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: The Harlequin Topic   Sun Nov 02 2014, 14:52

I would throw in that I would rather that Harlequins be assembled like the Court of the Archon.
Have a variety available - Troupe Mastes, Solitaires, etc - and let you create a varied unit like the Court.
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