HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 New kabal looking for some advice

Go down 
AuthorMessage
siovim
Slave


Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-03-06

PostSubject: New kabal looking for some advice   Thu Mar 20 2014, 20:19

As the titel says, iv'e started my own kabal, and i would like some advice on how to best utilize what i have.

I guess i will be playing on about 1000 points, and these are the models i have:

3 Raiders
3 Reaver Jetbikes
9 Hellions
19 Kabalite Warrior
10 Wyches

At the moment i don't have any HQ units, but some of my WHFB High Elves character will proxy an archaon, and retinue if needed. I would like to field my entire infantry force, but i understand on the forum that that isn't the best use of points?

Iv'e been thinking along these lines

Archon + 9 kabalites in raider

10 kabalites in raider

10 wyches in radier

12 reaver jetbikes (the hellions as stand-ins)

Would that be viable??
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Thu Mar 20 2014, 20:34

How do you define viable?

I mean, just looking at it I see a couple issues. The first is, base cost, what you're outlining is about 775 points. That leaves a lot of question marks about what you will choose to do with your upgrades.

I would say the big thing to pay attention to is your limited ability to hurt vehicles (two squads of 6 Jetbikes could become vehicle hunters, but still, that's slim) and also that your Archon (your assault tool) is being paired up with a somewhat inelegant shooting partner in the Warriors.

You're not likely to win a tournament with this list.

You are likely to be able to get in some games and start learning about your DE.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
siovim
Slave


Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-03-06

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Thu Mar 20 2014, 23:26

well that doesn't sound bad as a start, because i'm completely new to 40k.

It would be best to pair the archon with wyches, splitting the jet bikes and keep the point lvl on about 750??

As for vehicle hunting, wouldn't it be possible to arm a kabalite squd with dark lances, making the raider into a poor mans ravager.

Thinking about fast attack, are hellions good? i haven't seen them in any reports
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 00:04

@siovim wrote:
It would be best to pair the archon with wyches, splitting the jet bikes and keep the point lvl on about 750??
An Archon is usually an assault HQ build (though you can keep him super cheap with a Blaster and maybe a venom blade, and then he does combo fine with Trueblasters or Warriors) as a result he's usually most at home with a unit that is going to want to assault. You just need to build and play him appropriately for where he's at and what he's doing. if you want an assault beatstick - don't pair him with fragile and shooty Warriors.

Well, with 12 "jetbikes" by definition you need to split them up. Unit size max is 10.

I usually advocate players to ask their opponents to come down to their functional point level, not to try to build up to the opponent's. If you "build up" all it means is that you're taking a small force and adding a lot of unneeded upgrades/units to it that doesn't really help it out much. This is especially noticeable to the DE, who really can't make a unit tougher, all we can do is make it more expensive. I think with what you have that you have a comfortable army to build a 500 point list. You can work your way up to 1000 but are probably doing yourself a disservice. 750 is probably workable as a median point.

@siovim wrote:
As for vehicle hunting, wouldn't it be possible to arm a kabalite squd with dark lances, making the raider into a poor mans ravager.
Many things are possible, but there is always the question of if they're the best option. Your 'poor man's Ravager' example is basically this.

It's a "Ravager"
+ It has the ability to score on objectives
+ It has the ability to fire at two different targets
- It has one less lance
- If it moves at all it snapfires one of its lances
- If it moves 6+" it can only fire one lance
- It has less armor
- It costs 70 points more

So, the only real savings there is to your wallet. If you want to go that route I'd never embark the squad onto their Raider, and just run the Raider as a gun platform and the Warriors as unmoving troops hopefully in a ruin with a good field of fire.

@siovim wrote:
Thinking about fast attack, are hellions good? i haven't seen them in any reports
There was a period where some players tried to sell the idea that Hellions were not only good but were competitive. Even if they were right at the time (and I have doubts) they are pretty much assuredly not correct now due to the overall shift in the meta.

Hellions are, basically, semi-okay if paired with Baron Sathypants and given at least 1, preferably 2+ pain tokens. They are decent in assault en mass, have decent shooting, and with the Baron are pretty mobile, hard to lock down, and have some cover benefits.

They're not top line, but they shouldn't be totally laughed off the table unless your opponent can deny cover saves (which, sadly, in a competitive sense, more than enough do to totally skunk Hellions). For friendly play where you don't expect to face a lot of Tau or Eldar they should treat you okay if fielded in large numbers and supported by other units.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
siovim
Slave


Posts : 4
Join date : 2014-03-06

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 10:35

regarding competetive scene, i have nothing to worry about. We are a very small gaming group, and my mates enjoy taking builds who defy internet wisdom. This is at least the trend in our WHF battles, so i guess it will carry over. I will play my first match next saturday, so i think i will try a bit of everthing.
The image of hellions carrying a psycher away to butcher hom on a roof top is quite hillarious, so i think i will definetly try it Smile The Reaver's flat out attack (haven't the book beside my currently), is it effective against Chaos Space Marines??

Disintegrator cannon is suposedly good at clearing out infantry, but i haven't seen much of those either. The meta making them redunant as well?

What would be a good build for a reasonable costed Archon??
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 14:30

@siovim wrote:
The image of hellions carrying a psycher away to butcher hom on a roof top is quite hillarious, so i think i will definetly try it Smile
The image is wonderful. You may find reality to not quite keep with that image.

@siovim wrote:
The Reaver's flat out attack (haven't the book beside my currently), is it effective against Chaos Space Marines??
They will get their armor saves, but it will inflict wounds on them.

@siovim wrote:
Disintegrator cannon is suposedly good at clearing out infantry, but i haven't seen much of those either. The meta making them redunant as well?
Actually it's that Splinter Cannons make them redundant, and also limited ways to bring Dissies also making them redundant. Basically you're either giving up our only real long range anti-mech shooting to bring them...or you can just bring splinter cannons, which are better against most infantry and MCs than Dissies in any case.

@siovim wrote:
What would be a good build for a reasonable costed Archon??
Well, I personally don't use Archons below 1500. Also, there is more than one way to build a cheap Archon. I'd say a Blaster and nothing else if you want shooting support, I'd say a v.blade and Shadow Field (and maybe PGL) if you want assault support.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Elzadar
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 272
Join date : 2012-09-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 15:32

@siovim wrote:
Disintegrator cannon is suposedly good at clearing out infantry, but i haven't seen much of those either. The meta making them redunant as well?

I personally love the Disintegrator. The splinter cannons don't take away armour saves, which is key when taking out marines. The problem with them is though that they are fielded on vehicles, which don't gain pain tokens, and therefore take effectiveness out of your infantry.

I personally would recommend them for a Razorwing Jetfighter, in order to take out flying monstrous creatures. Seeing how the Jetfighter can also take a Splinter Cannon, making him effective against infantry and mc.

I personally also tend to put one on an assault raider to give my archon help in softening up units before the charge, but that is only helpful in few lists.

_________________
Kabal of the Forsaken Masquerade
Coven of the Flayed Man
Back to top Go down
Expletive Deleted
Wych
avatar

Posts : 581
Join date : 2013-07-31

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 15:48

I use disentegrator cannons on my raiders, and leave the dark lances on my razorwing. I find the small ability to hit flyers with it more valuable than added AI.

Disentegrator raiders have given me more success against terminators/broadsides than splinter cannons. And haywire wyches have given me more success against mechanized lists than dark lances. But that's just me, YMMV. (I use a lot of wyches)


_________________
"Excess, yeah that's what we do best."
Back to top Go down
Elzadar
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 272
Join date : 2012-09-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 15:49

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I use disentegrator cannons on my raiders, and leave the dark lances on my razorwing. I find the small ability to hit flyers with it more valuable than added AI.

Good point. In my area I don't face many fliers.

_________________
Kabal of the Forsaken Masquerade
Coven of the Flayed Man
Back to top Go down
Sharpe
Slave


Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 17:31

Quote :
If it moves at all it snapfires one of its lances

I thought the Aerial assault special rule meant that it could fire all of lances if its moves at cruising speed?
Back to top Go down
Expletive Deleted
Wych
avatar

Posts : 581
Join date : 2013-07-31

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 18:09

The vehicle, not the passengers.

_________________
"Excess, yeah that's what we do best."
Back to top Go down
Sharpe
Slave


Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 22:53

A Ravager doesn't carry passengers, though?
Back to top Go down
Expletive Deleted
Wych
avatar

Posts : 581
Join date : 2013-07-31

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 21 2014, 23:23

Comparing a Ravager to a Raider with a Kabalite with a Dark Lance, while the Ravager can fire it's Dark Lances at full ballistic skill thanks to Aerial Assault a Raider with a Kabalite can only take snapshots with one of them.

_________________
"Excess, yeah that's what we do best."
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
avatar

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Sat Mar 22 2014, 01:01

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Disentegrator raiders have given me more success against terminators/broadsides than splinter cannons. And haywire wyches have given me more success against mechanized lists than dark lances. But that's just me, YMMV. (I use a lot of wyches)
I advocate supplementing lances with wyches and wyches with lances - the two go together well. The purpose behind killing off the vehicles of an opponent is two fold - to protect your own units from damaging vehicles, and to bust open transports to allow your infantry killing things to go to work.

If it was only transports, then wyches would, hands down, be the best option. That said, i like to have lances too, because lances help on Turn 1 to dismantle damaging vehicles to allow more of everything to survive till Turn 2 when Wyches become relevant. If I could functionally bust up gunlines Turn 1 with wyches I'd never look twice at dark lances again.

But I can't, so I keep it a three way tryst.

As far as Dissies...well, yeah, sure, against specifically Termies and Broadsides they do better.
They do worse versus Daemon Princes or most other FMCs. They also do worse against blob infantry like most bugs, Guard, and Orks.

Lances are also pretty darn good versus Termies and Broadsides. And against something like a Centurion or Paladin or Oblit, it's flat out better. Plus it can damage vehicles, something a Dissie can never do.

That means, to my way of thinking, that versus infantry - the only infantry that a Dissie outperforms an s.cannon at...a lance would also outperform it, but a lance has the benefit of being long range anti-mech too, and the s.cannon is overall better at killing more things than the Dissie. That makes Dissies only really useful against very specific targets, and makes both lances and s.cannons better generalist weapons.

Therefore, when building a TAC list for tournament play, I'd never opt for the Dissie over either of the other two.

_________________


The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Expletive Deleted
Wych
avatar

Posts : 581
Join date : 2013-07-31

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Sat Mar 22 2014, 04:09

I get what you're saying thor, and you've a lot more experience, and probably are a better player than I am. Currently I exclusively use wyches as troops, try and deploy in such a way as to waste my opponents first turn, wittle them down then go in for the strike, sacrificing a wych squad here and there.

The problem I have with our dark lances is they don't have enough shots. A ravager costs as much as a wave serpent, and it's just so... underwhelming in comparison. Granted that's a big jump, to expect our 5th edition gunship to compare to one of the best units in 6, I just find them so unreliable. With dissies you get something dark lance doesn't give you. Rate of fire. Missing with a dark lance shot, or having your opponent roll his 5++ just wasted a 25 point gun shot. Disses give you three shots and force more saves, making them a bit more reliable. I do have some dark lances and void lances in my army. Just not on my transports. I'd rather be able to kill something in heavy armor and not waste 8 rounds of splinter cannon spam to do the job. I've kind of given up on alpha strike at this point.

_________________
"Excess, yeah that's what we do best."
Back to top Go down
Elzadar
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 272
Join date : 2012-09-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Sat Mar 22 2014, 17:42

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I get what you're saying thor, and you've a lot more experience, and probably are a better player than I am. Currently I exclusively use wyches as troops, try and deploy in such a way as to waste my opponents first turn, wittle them down then go in for the strike, sacrificing a wych squad here and there.

Do you maybe have a battlereport up from that somewhere? I'd love to see that list in action  Razz 

_________________
Kabal of the Forsaken Masquerade
Coven of the Flayed Man
Back to top Go down
django_unchained
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 198
Join date : 2014-01-09

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Thu Mar 27 2014, 15:24

If you can afford it financially, Venoms are light years better than our raiders at the moment.
Back to top Go down
Elzadar
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 272
Join date : 2012-09-11

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 28 2014, 14:23

@django_unchained wrote:
If you can afford it financially, Venoms are light years better than our raiders at the moment.

Depends on your army. If you need AT and more transport capacity, then raiders are better.

_________________
Kabal of the Forsaken Masquerade
Coven of the Flayed Man
Back to top Go down
django_unchained
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 198
Join date : 2014-01-09

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Fri Mar 28 2014, 16:55

@Elzadar wrote:
@django_unchained wrote:
If you can afford it financially, Venoms are light years better than our raiders at the moment.

Depends on your army. If you need AT and more transport capacity, then raiders are better.


I'm speaking competitive play. Kabal is currently the top tier tourney army, and obviously with kabal you go venom. In coven lists with grots you'd go raiders.

Back to top Go down
Unorthodoxy
Beating A Different Drummer
avatar

Posts : 837
Join date : 2014-03-25
Location : Western Washington

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Tue Apr 01 2014, 23:42

Big fan of Disintegrator cannons.

_________________
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Back to top Go down
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/
jbwms713
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 119
Join date : 2013-07-13

PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   Sun Apr 06 2014, 21:11

@siovim wrote:
As the titel says, iv'e started my own kabal, and i would like some advice on how to best utilize what i have.

I guess i will be playing on about 1000 points, and these are the models i have:

3 Raiders
3 Reaver Jetbikes
9 Hellions
19 Kabalite Warrior
10 Wyches

First off, welcome to the Dark Eldar. Get ready to die a lot. And then learn, and then kill. A lot more. So there's that.

Secondly - since I didn't see a direct response to this, the combat-loadout I like on my Archon is Huskblade, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Soul Trap. While (usually) only S3, the instant-death mechanic of the Huskblade makes him a real threat to most characters. I'd feel comfortable going against about anything with T4 and a 4+ Invulnerable, to T5 and a 5+. Once you go beyond those stats (such as a Necron Lord with T5 and a 3++) you're pushing your luck on Shadowfield saves, especially if the hits will insta-kill you (which they often will).

As mentioned previously, if you kit your Archon for combat, you probably want to run him with a combat-oriented unit (in this case, your Wyches).

In general it looks like you have some decent options. I run mostly Kabalite myself (just the way I gravitated). I love Reavers, still often use a squad of Wyches (although they're far less competitive in a general sense). For Warriors, I mix Venom Squads and Raider Squads. I like Splinter Racks, as the re-rolls are great for FMC's, overwatch, and general purpose bonus damage output.

It's worth noting that I've been using The Duke a lot more lately, and I'm really enjoying his Low Orbit Raid rule. It opens up a *lot* in terms of tactical flexibility. I've become a fan of using survivable Eldar Allies as my turn 1 board presence, and DS'ing dark eldar units into the enemy's face (or back, generally).

For what you have, I'd look into getting a Ravager or two (heavy support in general) about as early as possible. You have a pretty good start on troops, some good fast attack choices... heavy is important for dark eldar, because it brings such good firepower for the price, and we need that.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: New kabal looking for some advice   

Back to top Go down
 
New kabal looking for some advice
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Drukhari Discussion
-
Jump to: