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 archons.. how.to kit out and why???

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warlock
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PostSubject: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 16:27

So ,
Im starting a kabal and dont know how to kit out my archon.. so c&c guys and why?
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 16:30

From my experience, the usual things to go for are:
Shadowfield - because why wouldn't you give your Archon a brilliant save?
Blaster Pistol - this one is sometimes a maybe, but a powerful little pistol like this can work wonders.
Husk Blade - I just love it too much. AP2 and Instant Death. Lovely.

And sometimes:
Soul Cage: Am I getting the name right? I feel like I'm not. The thing that doubles your strength when you kill something big.

From what I've seen, that's a typical load-out.

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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 16:34

Soultrap husk a normal ccw and Sfield ?
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 18:51

* Shadowfield - never leave Commorragh without it.
* Drugs - all the cool kids are doing it.
* Ghost Plate Armour - because you're too important to be killed.
* Agonizer - for the joy of killing toughness 5 characters.
* Splinter pistol - for the extra attack.
* Plasma grenades - so as not to waste your initiative 7
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warlock
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 20:13

Agoniser and husk how about that?
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whiskeytango
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 20:59

I'd go with one or the other, since the effects don't combine anyways, and with both you'd be almost doubling the archons cost before you even get to defensive equipment.

I'd go with Huskblade, Shadowfield, and Soul-trap. Combat drugs if you've got the extra points.

@Branden: Don't Archons already come with plasma grenades and a splinter pistol?
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 23:45

I'd concur with whiskeytango. If you want full offense, you have to take all the toys.

Huskblade, Soultrap, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield (PGL if with Incubi or other squad that doesn't have grenades).

The cheaper options:

Agoniser, Shadowfield

Venomblade, Shadowfield



In my opinion both ghostplate and blast pistol are both bad choices. The pistol costs a lot of points and if at all you're going to fire it once a game, not worth it. The ghostplate is also not necessary because if your archon fails one shadowfield save he's most likely instant toast anyway with all the S6 weaponry out there. Either way, that 4+ / 6++ is most likely not going to save you.

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Tue Mar 11 2014, 23:50

Husk blade - ap2 instant death.
Soul trap - doubles strength once you have killed first independent character makes the the husk blade phenomenal.
Combat drugs - normally helps the above to happen.
PGL - we have our high initiative makes sure our decent cc units don't lose it (incubi and grots)
Haywire grenades - if you have the points they can be a lot of fun and cause some unexpected trouble for your opponents. After seeing my archon throw one and then assault a necron monolith to finish it off I never leave home without them.
Shadow field - a must IMO. After having vect make about 50 saves in one game and him being the last DE unit I had on the table surrounded by a swarm of nids, forcing a draw much to my opponents frustration.
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Athalkar
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 00:02

-some local rule/house rule formats don't allow the 2+ in which case ghost plate and clone field.  

-Blast Pistol.... No.  Too expensive for 6" inch range.  By comparison the Harli fusion piston is the same Str same range but ap1 and melta at a 33% discount and i'm still loathe to field that.  The default pistol gives you the cc sooo you have to ask, in 6ed, what is the blast pistol doing for that the stock plasma grenade or the haywire grenade is not.  

-Blaster & Djinn blade -- The Djinn blades counts as a cc, but is purchased as wargear (i.e., not replacing existing cc).  Thus this combo preserves the extra attack for having two cc*.  The 2 bonus attacks and the chance at stabbing yourself is a nice nostalgia throw back to the original combat drugs in the previous dex (.  Not a bad supporting Combo for an archon added to a unit that primarily shoots providing just enough ap3 attacks (at ridiculously high initiative) to discourage most generic assault units.   Economy wise, if you not risking the Archon in close combat (its in a shooting unit), probably can get away with just the ghost plate armor.

*Army builder says "No" .... DE FAQ 1.4 says "Yes."  

-Huskblade & Soul trap -- Never guaranteed to work and on paper appears as a dubious expenditure of points.  However, once you pull this off, you'll love it.  There is something awesome (and attention grabbing) as an Archon running around with a 6+ Str ap 2 weapon that is not unwieldy.  Additionally, a Huskblade is not a bad riptide solution-- sure you need a 6 to wound, but you only need to wound once
(not that hard considering how many attacks the Archon gets) and that 2+ armor save the riptide is sporting make it damn hard to kill.  (Also, the riptide as a monstrous creature meets the soul trap conditions for use).  

-Agoniser.  A triple A choice its (1) cheap, (2) effective and (3) reliable.  The only thing your not doing is hunting terminators.  Monstrous creatures with a 2+ sv (riptide) become problematic; however, every other monstrous creature is fair game.  The trick is not getting insta-killed by a defective shadow field.  

-Venom blade. Go to choice for sergeant characters or hammies. However, if fielding the archon I want a little more than a poison close combat weapon. Albeit, cannot argue against the price.

-Electrocorrosive Whip.  Useful for tar pitting combos against multi wound MCs.... but an Archons supposed to kill, not stall.  For the same price as the agoniser it simply fails.  Against non multi-wound models its nothing more than a power weapon.... which costs more than a power weapon..... No.  (Wish List:  Really Put the word corrosive into effect- ditch the power weapon rule, add rule providing "Any unit suffering one or more hits by a electrocorrosive whip has its armor save reduced by one for remainder of the assault phase." Oh well everybody needs useless options.)  

Combat drugs... yes.   Cheap stat upgrade and sometimes a free pain token.

PGL... too expensive for the archon alone; however, absolutely invaluable when fielding the archon with the court, incubi, wracks or grotqs.  (Because all DE assault specialists ('cept wyches) decided that they were too cool for assault grenades).  When playing just for a defensive grenade perk... larger the squad the better the economy but not an auto take.

Webway portal.... only if you have some webway tactics in mind.... Generally, I don't like using an archon as a webway portal delivery system.  

Reaver Jetbike, sky board..... Archon's were too cool with these and as such they are no longer an option.  (angst: But Chaos Sorcs can be put on a jet bikes.......) (anyone else miss the punisher/tormentor helm Archon on a jet bike?)

When running the Archon- in larger games (1500+) I run the archon with Husk and soul trap, CCDs, SF and PGL*.  Smaller games, Agoniser, CCDs, SF and PGL*.  I've tried the blaster and djinn blade but find that the archon is too passive for my taste and the hammy makes for a better cheap HQ (albeit in tailored lists against t3 default armies i've run this combo more aggressively for some good times- but not in a general all takers list).

*Only if the unit he joins needs assault grenades.
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 01:10

The more important question is who is escorting him? Every Archon needs a retinue and it will determine what gear he's best suited to use.

Kabalites/Trueborn - Only if you make him shooty
Wyches/Bloodbrides - To fragile.
Incubi - Too killy. I had to stop using incubi they were too effective and my archon would just have his Shadowfield shot off.
Court - For the most part worthless.
Fast Attack - He can't keep up with any of it.
Mandrakes - Bwahahahaha.
Wracks - Why not do one better:

Grotesques - This. Gives him feel no pain from the start and the toughness needed to get into close combat, and survive being stranded if the unit is too effective. But the grotesques will rarely be that effective. Combat drugs of a 6 give the unit furious charge. And in the off chance your archon does manage to die, you just left a timebomb in the midst of your enemy. Definitely take a Phantasm Grenade Launcher.

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Athalkar
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 02:43

The court is not worthless. Its not the best.... but far from worthless. (Also at $16 per model....).

Assuming std court with +2 sslyth and +1 Medusae (160 pts) and 4 grots with Aberration venom blade and liquifier gun (165 pts):

-Court out shoots the grotqs; the single medusae will perform on the same level as the single liquifier gun thus the court provides more than double the total shooting fire power providing two such flamers, 1 splinter (2+ poison) 9 splinter (4+ poison) shots.

-On the charge; (3 sslyth and 1 ur-ghul provides 19 S5 attacks 1 lhamaean is 3 poison (2+) attacks (also the poison and 4 of the S5 attacks are at initiative 5) whereas the grotqs will provide 12 S5 and 6 S5 + posion 2+ attacks albeit with room to improve with furious charge.... that's fairly even

-No Charge; court provides 12 S5 attacks and 2 poison 2+ whereas grots provide 9 S5 and 5 S5 +poison 2+ ... still fairly even (particularly considering the court also gets a number of attacks and the poison attacks at initiative 5)

-In the event of a premature vehicle explosion the court can use the casualties to knock some of the less desirable persons in the court leaving the sslyth as the majority number (or tied for majority number) so that any additional shooting attacks against the unit are against a T5 like grotesques. (this also applies for overwatch, successful overwatch kills could make the court also count as T5.

With fleet, the court might actually get to where it needs to go (plus with units with a ld of 9, the archon can hitch a ride with somebody else whereas the grotsq.... it could be fun if they themselves explode near a bunch of enemy models near a bunch of raiders not so much.)

Granted your right grotsq are pretty good at delivery the archon to the front line and have clear advantage in overall wound absorption arena. It is also particularly fun using aethersails and max move to drop a bunch grots into/on top of a IG gun line... desperate IG players don't like watching you roll FnP rolls against their sabre lascannons hits and really don't like just putting down a die to indicate that only one wound was suffered. (particularly after using a third of their armies fire power just to down the 4+ jinking raider)

Bottom line, can't say Grotsqs are good and not concede that the court would be a competitive choice.

But yes I agree, who is escorting the archon is probably the largest factor on how the archon is kitted out.
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 10:05

Escorting my archon will be either a payload of brides/wytches or wracks/incubi/kabalW.. grots maybe dont like the models..
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 10:07

I have a.doubt in either a venomblade or a husk.. but how.do you guys make a soultrap? ( kitbashing my archon )
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warlock
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 13:55

I have a.doubt in either a venomblade or a husk.. but how.do you guys make a soultrap? ( kitbashing my archon )
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 14:21

That standard archon comes with a soul trap, the flaming pyramid they have in their right hand, you make it anything really just an item the archon can hold or have on his person.
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 18:46

My archon does not hold a visible soultrap, because I modeled him with pistol and sword. This is still "what you see is what you get" since this is his actual armament and slapping everything on him just is not possible with the actual model you get.

Additionally, please do not double or triple post in any topic, warlock. Use the edit function to add text to your existing post if you feel like you missed something. Double Posting is against the forum rules because it creates an unnecessary amount of replies and makes the discussion harder to follow.

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Martinman
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 19:20

Dogmar wrote:
My archon does not hold a visible soultrap, because I modeled him with pistol and sword. This is still "what you see is what you get" since this is his actual armament and slapping everything on him just is not possible with the actual model you get.

.

I could see someone kitbashing an Archon with 4 arms and running him with a Haemonculus-themed army. That would actually be kind of cool.
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 19:30

Ah ok but thats a no.for me.. i dont like.finecast models.. yeah my bad.. cellphone just went totaly bonkers and double posted..
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 22:07

I use a large red jewel bead my wife gave me as a soultrap; it sits on my Archon's base, and looks pretty!

I have yet to try a court, but my Archon finally settled with Husk, Trap, Shadowfield, Drugs; 4 Grots, Raider.
I haven't found myself wishing for an Aber,Liquifier, Blast Pistol, or even a PGL: the Grots can go last if they need, they're only there to get her where she needs to be!
I once got to Str 10 by Soultrapping TWO Dreadknights! That was a good day!
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Wed Mar 12 2014, 22:29

Problem with that is the whole unit has to have assault grenades or the whole units strikes at I1. Even the Archon.

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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Thu Mar 13 2014, 00:18

Oops! That'll be me playing it wrong for the past year, and nobody questioning it! Bummer! Thanks E.D.!
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Thu Mar 13 2014, 00:45

NP! Had to double check the rule a little while back myself. Only reason I don't run them with my Succubus, as they'd be the perfect unit to balance his amazing but flimsy assault.

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Athalkar
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Thu Mar 13 2014, 00:50

Also if you don't have the pyramid object that comes with the Archon you could use the crucible box that comes with the Hammy model.  

Expletive Deleted wrote:
Problem with that is the whole unit has to have assault grenades or the whole units strikes at I1. Even the Archon.

I'm not sure that is correct.  If any single model must pass through dangerous terrain then the whole unit would suffer the initiative 1 problem- no problem there.

However, the BRB language for Assault grenades has been errated by GW*:  "Change the sentence to read "Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through difficult terrain."  

Stating "Models"  as opposed to "Units" (as it does for defense grenades) tells me that the Archon with its plasma grenade would still go at his own initiative.  I'm missing something?  (because if so, i too have be playing that wrong.... oops).

An additional (more crazy idea) for a Archon kit is to replace both the cc and the splinter pistol with two blast pistols and take advantage of the gunslinger rule.  While I have never done this, and would not recommend for competitive game- having now thinking about it sounds like it could be fun.

*(GW-US Shring of knowledge address:  http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=0&aId=3400019&start=1&multiPageMode=true )
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Thu Mar 13 2014, 01:19

Woohoo! The UK errata says the same: BRB Errata, 2nd page, right hand column.

Cool, the problem that I didn't know I had has been solved!
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PostSubject: Re: archons.. how.to kit out and why???   Thu Mar 13 2014, 12:35

Athalkar wrote:
An additional (more crazy idea) for a Archon kit is to replace both the cc and the splinter pistol with two blast pistols and take advantage of the gunslinger rule.  While I have never done this, and would not recommend for competitive game- having now thinking about it sounds like it could be fun.

Is Gunslinger not a USR? I didn't think it could be used unless the specific model had the Gunslinger rule.

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