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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 11:10

Expletive Deleted wrote:
What hurts us right now as opposed to the double cakers, is our inability to efficiently spam high strength weapons, and by that I mean it will take three ravagers to glance one wave serpent to death, while the wave serpent can pretty much knock out a ravager by itself.

Yeah, but 60 points of wyches can take out a Wave Serpent without much difficulty. Of course, they'll die immediately afterwards, but that seems a fair exchange, to me. We have all of the necessary tools, it's just that under 6th, and with each new codex, each of those tools seems increasingly specialised (e.g. I'm really starting to think that wyches aren't really good for anything but opening up tanks), which makes things a really insanely difficult balancing act, hence the half-cake.

Also, I'm pretty much going to do my bit to make sure that the "cake" system replaces the normal "tier" parlance.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 12:26

I've found the issue in that scenario to be getting my wyches there in tact enough to actually hurt the wave serpent.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 12:34

I'm still pretty new and inexperienced at this, so I guess I've just been lucky the few times I've played against Eldar. I also haven't faced a Serpent Spam list. The challenge for me (against anything where I'm using wych suicide squads to take out vehicles) has always been trying to do it in a way that gets the Venom out alive...
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 15:36

valmir wrote:

Personally, I don't want to play a double-cake army. I'd rather be single-cake in a double-cake meta. But that's just me and what I happen to look for in the hobby. And I agree with Cavash, which suggests that we're not really a no-cake army. But the problem does remain that we're really only a half-cake army at best.

There's no such thing as half-cake! What we have is no cake at all, only a few biscuits, a bag of raisins, and half a packet of malteasers. Maybe the biscuits are jaffa cakes, which are yummy and technically cakes. Add half a bottle of wine left over from the other day, and we can make it work, if it's just us and no one else is coming. It isn't fair though, with everyone else having a proper party with real cake!

Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Smile
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 18:13

LOL!! Thunderous applause to Barking Agatha! That wit, honestly, you need to write columns for WD.
I think that every DE unit has a specific job to do and seldom serves a dual purpose well enough to justify the points spent. Haywire wyches will bust a super-heavy quite reliably. Kabalites will smoke a riptide/MC over the course of a game. I think ditching darklight on my warrior squads and haywiring my wyches was the best decision I made in my list construction. Doing so really gives them an all or nothing super focused purpose to where they need to be and what they need to be doing. I can't bring myself to FF/NS my raiders. They are there for 1 mad dash AT SOME POINT in a game.
The issue of enemy flyers has been really annoying. Overwatch bites. Ignores cover sucks. I want to explore a minimum eldar ally set-up to use divination to make my AT/AA units more reliable.
Would a similar all or nothing approach to using flyers win me more games? Ally in a stupid amount of Crimson Hunters in the FA slot and Razorwing jetfighters in the HS slot and I could become TFG.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 20:35

I think Dark Eldar are doing good. We are as allies in one of the best list today (Eldar/DE, counsil beaststar). And even as a primary our Codex is right after tthe top tier.

And to prove my point: (borrowed from Torrent of Fire)

Win ratios of primary codecies from Las Vegas Open. One tournament doesn't tell all but gives a good direction.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 20:36

Holy crap, we're behind Tyranids!  Mad 

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Sat Mar 08 2014, 01:16

Count Adhemar wrote:
Holy crap, we're behind Tyranids!  Mad 

I suppose us being good at beating them doesn't necessarily translate to everyone else being good at beating them... Plus they're probably not as terrible as people claim, those monster mash builds look pretty threatening to everyone except us.

I've actually had more convincing wins with Dark Eldar in sixth than I have with Eldar - maybe it's a case of me knowing how to play them better, or a case of the people I play still not being entirely sure how to play against them, but they still do alright. A way to survive overwatch (something like dirge casters maybe) as well as some way to give units poisoned attacks in close combat (easily explained in one sentence - the entire unit may take venom coated blades for 5 pts/model) would be welcome, as would a bit of an overhaul to the totally useless but very fluffy arcane wargear. Other than that we're ok, it's difficult to complain about stuff ignoring my jink saves when I put a flickerfield on my vehicles - so I don't complain about it  Smile Yes, holding objectives is difficult, but it's not like it was exactly easy in fifth edition.

Maybe I'm losing my powers of cynicism.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Sat Mar 08 2014, 01:41

Barking Agatha wrote:
valmir wrote:

Personally, I don't want to play a double-cake army. I'd rather be single-cake in a double-cake meta. But that's just me and what I happen to look for in the hobby. And I agree with Cavash, which suggests that we're not really a no-cake army. But the problem does remain that we're really only a half-cake army at best.

There's no such thing as half-cake! What we have is no cake at all, only a few biscuits, a bag of raisins, and half a packet of malteasers. Maybe the biscuits are jaffa cakes, which are yummy and technically cakes. Add half a bottle of wine left over from the other day, and we can make it work, if it's just us and no one else is coming. It isn't fair though, with everyone else having a proper party with real cake!

Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Smile

So basically, you're saying that we done brought raisins to a cake fight?

@Vasara: That graph is interesting, and not what I would have expected. At all. I'm also surprised to see Sisters of Battle so high up. Maybe it's because only totally awesome players play the malteaser armies?
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Expletive Deleted
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Sat Mar 08 2014, 03:39

I wonder if space marines are so low due to the lowest common denominator.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 10 2014, 17:10

Vasara wrote:
I think Dark Eldar are doing good. We are as allies in one of the best list today (Eldar/DE, counsil beaststar). And even as a primary our Codex is right after tthe top tier.

'We make great allies' somehow doesn't sound all that thrilling. As for 'primary codex', sure, we can do great by borrowing toys from the Eldar, or the Tau, or the Space Meringues, or whomever, but that doesn't sound like our own codex is doing so great. If it were, shouldn't we have toys of our own?
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 10 2014, 19:11

Count Adhemar wrote:
darthken239 wrote:
My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself.  All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

Jeez! Who were you playing against and what the hell happened? I've never lost that badly with DE, or indeed any other army.

i was playing against Tau, eldar and chaos, plenty of cover on the table, but that doesn't help when every thing seems to ignore cover and the 60" range of wave serpent shields, 48" range of plague marine weapons and Tau pretty much negated my NS's. and we all know how reliable FF is Smile
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 10 2014, 20:46

darthken239 wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
darthken239 wrote:
My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself.  All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

Jeez! Who were you playing against and what the hell happened? I've never lost that badly with DE, or indeed any other army.

i was playing against  Tau, eldar and chaos,  plenty of cover on the table,  but that doesn't  help when every thing seems to ignore cover  and the 60" range of wave serpent shields, 48" range of plague marine weapons  and Tau  pretty much negated my NS's.  and we all know how reliable FF is  Smile

Wave Serpents I'll grant you are a pain although you should have far more targets than he has serpents. He can't kill everything with them and if he fires them he leaves his vehicles vulnerable the next turn.

Your opponents Plague Marines seem to be...unusual ones. No weapon available to a Plague Marine has a range greater than 24" in the CSM Codex.

Tau are actually one of the armies that Night Shields excel against. They actually don't have too many weapons that are >36" range and a lot of the more common weapons (Pulse Rifles, HYMP, Missile Pods, SMS) are shorter range. Just avoid any Hammerheads or Iontides.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 10 2014, 21:04

Quote :
Your opponents Plague Marines seem to be...unusual ones. No weapon available to a Plague Marine has a range greater than 24" in the CSM Codex.

Likely that was Nurgle Oblits with lascannons.
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 10 2014, 21:25

I've had some games since I came back where I actually felt kind of dirty playing the Dark Eldar. I went against a Nurgle themed list and killed 3 flying demon princes in my first turn of an 1850 game. Having a ragtag bunch of infantry in a raider kill korgath a couple turns later upon his arrival felt like kicking him while he was down.

Stuff like 20 points for an agonizer might sound pricey, but ask your opponent how he feels about the cost when it's up against his wraithknight or riptide.

Right now the army feels pretty close to how I remember it a long time ago. I've had few close games, it was always a massacre on one side or the other. To the player saying he got tabled turn one a few times, I've been considering choosing to go second more, equipping night shields, and hugging the back wall. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it would cut a lot of his firepower in turn one (especially with a nightfighting bonus) and let me do the end game objective grabbing. Getting a steal the initiative would be nice too and you wouldn't have to fear the opponent doing it to you and ruining your deployment setup for easy kills.

I would be pretty happy with this codex just shifting razorwing jetfighters to fast attack myself. I do feel susceptible to aircrafts and can't justify the heavy slot on them when they're so weak compared to the eldar one anyway.
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 02:17

I don’t think the book is totally borked, I just think it needs a few efficiency tweaks. Razorwing to FA for starters.
Grenades on our units for free. 20 pts for the PGL to give ass. and def. grenades is a joke. Cheaper agonizer. Warlord traits. Cheaper/better equipment/upgrades. Maybe even cheaper troops.

I’d love some sort of epoch-defining buff. Like being able to move 12 in vehicles and shoot as normal, or assault. But I suspect that would make us too good.

Played 4 games this weekend, one was over after turn 1 (he seized initative), one was over after turn 2, but I won the other 2 games.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 04:26

lessthanjeff wrote:

Right now the army feels pretty close to how I remember it a long time ago.

That's exactly the trouble!
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 06:29

Yeah, I should clarify that it's not that I think the codex is fine and only needs the Jetfighter moved to fast attack to be on a good level, just that I'd be happy with that. I'm keeping my expectations low so I have more room to be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

I love some of the ideas I've seen people posting like passengers treating cruising speed the same as combat speed or having unique deployment options. Heck, Mandrakes and the Decapitator are exactly as worthless as I remember them being 15 years ago when I started playing. I had hoped they'd have found a cool niche after taking a decade away from the game, but alas.
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 09:09

Likewise, my army composition has remained virtually unchanged since 3rd edition. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 11:57

+1 for lots of what has been mentioned.

As for the agonizer, though, should it really be reduced? A power sword in the hands of a marine sarge is 15pts for AP3; Agonizer not only gives up AP3, but effectively a Str buff as well.

All I'd really ask for is useable wyches, their 6+ doesn't cut it for 10pts/model with no way to get where they're supposed to be other than a time bomb of a transport.

What do you all think about the concept of bumping Kabalite Warriors to a 4+, and Wyches to a 5+? Too much? Not enough to make a difference?

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 12:32

They obviously need SOME kind of buff. At this point the best option is to have them begin the game with a haemonculus in order to give the fnp. Maybe they could just begin the game with a pain token?
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Tue Mar 11 2014, 13:28

Laughingcarp wrote:

All I'd really ask for is useable wyches, their 6+ doesn't cut it for 10pts/model with no way to get where they're supposed to be other than a time bomb of a transport.

valmir wrote:
They obviously need SOME kind of buff.

Ahem! Well, while I have your attention, may I direct you here?

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t7484p80-general-de-wishlist#93262

Please? I actually put a lot of effort into it. I would like to know what you think! Smile
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django_unchained
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 28 2014, 01:18

Idk... I've been playing DE for 2 months and my total record is 10-0-1. Recently came in third at a tourney... I run:

Vect

50 warriors
5 venoms
3 x 3 splinterborn
4 raiders
3 ravagers
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 28 2014, 05:58

I'd like to know the OPs list and how he deployed for those games. Being tabled T1 just screams bad list with way too many upgrades and not enough bodies combined with deploying in the enemies sights.

I could see this happen if it was a 1000 point game and you took vect, minimum troops, max heavies and elites. Then grouped them altogether in the most forward position possible in the center of the board.... Then had really bad dice when rolling saves...

DE are regular working folks, no easy button for them. Our guys weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. No sir, we have to earn ours by sneaking up behind the enemy and ripping it through the back of their head.

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