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yojimbo
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 03 2014, 14:19

Hi all, As it stands when the Codex was first released I tried to get to grips with and indeed use the Dark Eldar at the time I had semi limited success but with the advent of the Necrons I enjoyed playing them again and had forgotten about the Dark Eldar in the dust of time.

But very recently I pulled down from their shelf and tried them once more and found myself having my butt handed to me on a silver platter , Now I`ve read and the Tactica here and in a few other places but I do get the feeling that the Dark Eldar are remarkably the underdogs of 40k once again unless paired off with their light cousins who in turn seem to be able to do most of what we can do in a far far better way.

So has anyone had success with a pure Dark Eldar list or do we have to rely on allies or indeed being the allied contingent as in the recently risen "Beast star"??

Do we still rely on fast vehicles that fall apart the moment a space marine thinks about shooting it?

Are Hellions and Wracks better choices for Troops then the Kabalites and Wyches??

I`ve also been tempted to go down the route of allies and have a Eldar/ Dark Eldar construct army as a fun thing do we think this would stand up well on the table?? ( I.e nothing but wraith constructs for Eldar and Hommunculi constructs for Dark Eldar)

Sorry for quite a ramble but just interested on peoples views on the matter....

P.s sorry if this seems like a rant too  Laughing 
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Mon Mar 03 2014, 15:06

I think a number of us have had plenty of success with a pure Dark Eldar force. I've had ups and downs for certain, but every now and then I can pull of something quite spectacular. My last game was a close one, but I pulled out on top against Ultramarines, and Tyranids are usually something I can mince through.

Fast Vehicles are of course the thing we rely on, but they're not as fragile as they once were. Between Jinking and Flickerfields they're more durable than they used to be. Even if they take a load of hits, in theory about 1/3 of them can be saved against. Ok they're easier to hit in combat, but again the Flickerfield would work and by then they've discharged their cargo.

I say no to Hellions and Wracks, as I play a pure Kabalite force. Ok, Hellions and Wracks have their little niches that make them really good, but a full unit on a Raider with Splinter Racks can throw down some serious firepower, poison making it all the more effective.

Eldar/Dark Eldar is probably the thing to do if taking Allies with Dark Eldar. It's very common, the combo of Beasts with Jetseer and the Baron being a fairly lethal little unit. Very common as I hear it (though I don't play it myself).
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 10:18

yeah it's still a viable option but unfortunately not a good one any more. our codex written in the twilight of 5th ed was good you still had to play well and any small mistake could cost you the game.
Not over powered you needed skill to use it properly.

6th ed is more of a shoot and screw the rest edition which hurts us no matter how you look at it.

My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself. All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

We've been left behind badly with 6th ed which is a shame considering the older players like myself waited well over a decade for a new codex.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 10:43

@darthken239 wrote:
My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself.  All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

Jeez! Who were you playing against and what the hell happened? I've never lost that badly with DE, or indeed any other army.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 11:11

@darthken239 wrote:

My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself.  All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

Were you playing on some sort of salt flats style table?!

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 13:12

Oo! Oo! I put my money on Tau!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 20:47

I don't know, I played vs Tau on sunday with a pure DE list, and it was an absolute bloodbath both ways. I'd have won turns 5 & 6, but he won on 7. We came so close to tabling each other it was ridiculous; I had 1 model left and he had 5.

Haven't played DE with allies at all, and I'm 7-6-0. Not bad for a guy who's been in the hobby less than a year, newer than everyone else in my meta. This is against many variations of Marines, Guard, Necrons, 'Nids (hah! The Imperium should be PAYING Dark Eldar to wipe out the Tyranid threat.) Tau, Orks, and soon Eldar.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 21:10

I'm not a hugely experienced player and I don't play much- neither do my 2 opponents.

in 5th I felt as though I was slightly underpowered but perfectly competetive.

in 6th I feel we are one of, if not the, worst book in the game, and at a severe disadvantage in most games.


20 points for an agoniser is... hilariously bad.

Eldar have mobility and durability we can only dream of.

Writing lists is depressing.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 21:20

Don't forget that our models are prettier than everyone else's.

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Wed Mar 05 2014, 21:21

The only reason I started playing DE, and I finally bought and got round to painting my lovely incubi. Smile

our elite assault unit have to have an HQ to babysit them, because they don't have grenades.
 lol! 
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yojimbo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 12:17

@darthken239 wrote:
My last 3 games ive been tabled in turn one without having a turn myself.  All 3 games we set up, i had the inititive stolen 3 times and didn't even get a turn, just stood thier and watched my force get shot to pieces.

It was the same last time I tried them too mate minus the initiative stealing, I faced the new SM book and they don`t even have as many ignore cover weapons that the Fishmen can take and that`s what led me to the belief as good as we can be, It either takes a great player or in most cases an ally to shore up our weaknesses.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 16:12

Well, you can always presume that there isnt any sort of defence for your units whatsoever. Except not being allowed to suffer damage via game mechanics and that is being out of range of shooty stuff, being in reserve, not being able to suffer damage via inablity of enemy to spit fire from 1 unit to 3 targets (which you help by destroying units completely), not being able to be shot in close combat (which you are there to win and finish off).

 It kinda gets enlightening when you start to think like that - well, any unit my enemy fire upon will be dead or ineffective. Any. Forget about jink saves, feel no pain, cover, all that stuff. Valuing defense from saves and toughness as a Dark Eldar is always damage control thing, rather then a serious strategy. And if that is so, why does it matter how many Cover Ignoring enemy have? Do you want to cover your weak points, or do you want to win?

There is an exception. Like beastmasters, wracks or grots. Maybe reavers. But even for them most of the glass hammer status aplies. They are there to allow other part of your glass hammer army to function.

Once you realise this you suddenly realise how important lances and splinter cannons are (what those old grumpies from forums always told), when to msu, how big units you should take, how many points to spend on upgrades and many others, how to deploy, when to go all-in etc.

And when you start to think like this your realise not many things have actually changed from 5th. Maybe you were allowed some indulgences in the 5th, now you dont.There is no middle ground, you either play pure Dark Eldar way, or you go in covering the weaknesses and take allies, Wraithknights, farseers, wave serpents, warp spiders etc. But they wont play like Dark Eldar.

You will probably end up having DE only for poison, cheap lances and beastmasters unit. All the meat of your force should be Craftworld Eldar. Troops should be 2 reserved Wind Rider squads. This is ok army, but it is subject to all the meta stuff.

DE in a way is a much simpler army. You dont play defense at all. You play other stuff. And nobody actually takes any special units just for us. DE is underdogs now, in all that craziness. That have its value.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 18:02

@Azdrubael wrote:

 It kinda gets enlightening when you start to think like that - well, any unit my enemy fire upon will be dead or ineffective. Any. Forget about jink saves, feel no pain, cover, all that stuff.

This is true.

@Azdrubael wrote:

And when you start to think like this your realise not many things have actually changed from 5th. Maybe you were allowed some indulgences in the 5th, now you dont.

I have to disagree. Indulgences? That was put in by design, and not to 'make it easier', but because it was 'the way it's supposed to work'. The Codex itself says: 'Hug cover like it's an old friend, deploy your vehicles out of sight of the enemy's fire support, move from cover to cover as you close with your prey, and only expose your units to the guns of the enemy when you absolutely have to -- usually just before you launch a devastating assault'.

Does that still work? Including the 'devastating assault'? Do we still 'dish out pain like no other' (quoting the Codex again)? I would say no, not really.

@Azdrubael wrote:

DE is underdogs now, in all that craziness. That have its value.

What value? The 'Ha ha, I'm so much better at playing this game than you that I can beat you with both hands tied behind my back!' thing? That is just so wrong, and it's also not true; playing Dark Eldar doesn't make you better than people who play space meringues -- it just makes you cooler.

Go back and read that part of the Codex, 'Conquering Realspace for Beginners', and ask yourself how much of it still works in the new context. That is how the DE were supposed to be, and how they no longer are.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 18:24

Quote :
What value? The 'Ha ha, I'm so much better at playing this game than you that I can beat you with both hands tied behind my back!' thing?

No, not that. That is some emotinal hagwash you mentioned. We simply play different. Out of the line. Everyone gear up to deal with centurions, flyers, giant multiwounded MCs, infiltrating bikes.WE dont use that, effort wasted.

We percieved as less of a threat, which is enforced by whacky players who cant play with DE and are out of frame of reference for what might happen next turn.

So we are on equal footing with almost every army, we have a chance, no  blocks, no deliberate plans for us. That is the value of any underdog army, always was in 40k. Not affected by meta, like other guys who jump bandwagons of power combos like crazy, just to find out their super combo is dusted with a new release, some new unit or a general GW marketing practice.


Quote :
The Codex itself says: 'Hug cover like it's an old friend, deploy your vehicles out of sight of the enemy's fire support, move from cover to cover as you close with your prey, and only expose your units to the guns of the enemy when you absolutely have to -- usually just before you launch a devastating assault'.
Come on, that never worked. The part of move from cover to cover. You either atack or reposition out of sight, if you got the cover while doing it, well little bit bonus, but sill not that reliable. You still deploy out of sight of most medium  range guns. Long range gives a damn, like they did.

Things like focus fire make us more hammer. While we definately are more glass then we are hammer, thats true, i think its still very playable.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 18:37

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
What value? The 'Ha ha, I'm so much better at playing this game than you that I can beat you with both hands tied behind my back!' thing?

No, not that. That is some emotinal hagwash you mentioned.

Makes sense -- I'm an emotional hag Smile

@Azdrubael wrote:
While we definately are more glass then we are hammer, thats true, i think its still very playable.

Playable, sure. I want more than just 'playable', though.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 18:45

Quote :
Playable, sure. I want more than just 'playable', though.

Well, i want Ferrari and survive next job project  Smile

Still i love those spiky evil space elves, so much time and money and effort was put into them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 19:15

The whole range thing is becoming more of an issue these days. I had a pretty good record when I was playing for pure competitiveness but restricting my army to fluff has provided me with some insight.

Serpent shields, and highyield/smart missiles and pink horrors with herald have been the bane of my existence in the past few months, because they spam high strength weapons at our laughably frail vehicles. I'm almost guaranteed to lose a vehicle per shot to these things. And when you look through our codex, there are very few choices that don't require a vehicle to be effective. I'm beginning to think night shields is an automatic upgrade, and no squad should be taken above minimum capacity to reduce the free points we give away from explosions.

I'm curious how Mushkilla has been doing with reavers lately, as mine keep getting eaten by ignore cover. Seems beastmasters are the hotness for fast attack now.

Has anyone tried giving half of their vehicles night shields and the other half retro fire jets and just trying to pincer the opponent that way?

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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 19:39

azdrubael, i could accept all that if we were actually still maneuverable. and we're not, really.


saying we are on an equal footing is purely wrong. we're one of, if not the, worst book now.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 20:03

@Azdrubael wrote:

Well, i want Ferrari and survive next job project  Smile

I'd settle for 1 out of 2 there. Smile

@Azdrubael wrote:

Still i love those spiky evil space elves, so much time and money and effort was put into them.

I think we can take it for granted that we all do. Otherwise, boy, are we in the wrong place!

@notts wrote:

saying we are on an equal footing is purely wrong. we're one of, if not the, worst book now.

I wouldn't go quite that far. There's Adepta Sororitas, and Orks, and... um. Yeah. I think the argument is that 'twas ever thus', because the 3rd ed. codex was pretty low on the ladder too. The new codex was supposed to change that, though, and it did. You can't take away my cake and expect me to be happy about it, when everyone else is getting double cake!
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 20:26

SoB doesnt count, it's a WD half codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 20:51

When our army can still cripple most other armies with more than one list I'd say we're not at all the worst book. DE just take skill to use. We can overcome most armies if you have skill and the right list.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 21:44

@Cavash wrote:
When our army can still cripple most other armies with more than one list I'd say we're not at all the worst book. DE just take skill to use. We can overcome most armies if you have skill and the right list.

Maybe, but that doesn't address the cake issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 22:24

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Cavash wrote:
When our army can still cripple most other armies with more than one list I'd say we're not at all the worst book. DE just take skill to use. We can overcome most armies if you have skill and the right list.

Maybe, but that doesn't address the cake issue.

Personally, I don't want to play a double-cake army. I'd rather be single-cake in a double-cake meta. But that's just me and what I happen to look for in the hobby. And I agree with Cavash, which suggests that we're not really a no-cake army. But the problem does remain that we're really only a half-cake army at best.
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notts
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Thu Mar 06 2014, 22:33

@Cavash wrote:
DE just take skill to use. We can overcome most armies

I don't think we go into games with 0 chance. I just think we start most games at a pretty hefty disadvantage.


As valmir said, we're a half cake army facing single cake and some double cake armies.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in 6th   Fri Mar 07 2014, 00:00

The way the codex is set up I doubt we'll ever be a worst army unless something changes fundamentally in a new edition.

Why? Because our basic forms of AI and AT damage anything on a 4+ because of poison and lance.

What hurts us right now as opposed to the double cakers, is our inability to efficiently spam high strength weapons, and by that I mean it will take three ravagers to glance one wave serpent to death, while the wave serpent can pretty much knock out a ravager by itself.

That and the explosion rules from 6th, or the fragility of our transports. Neither one is terribly bad, but in combination they do put us at a disadvantage.

And our flyers need vector dancer.

It's not as if we eat ourselves if you focus fire specific units.

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