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the baron
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PostSubject: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 09:19

That feeling when you realize that only 4 codices stand between us and a new book. And there've been 2 to 3 codex releases a year lately.

Seriously:

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 09:49

Grey Knights and Necrons are not hardcover yet too.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 10:09

True but they were released after our codex and arguably were written far more for 6th than they were for 5th.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 11:53

Uh, I'm pretty sure there is NO confirmation that we've got a new Codex coming.
I know there are rumours all over the place, but I've also seen quite a few that say otherwise.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 16:34

It hasn't even been twelve years yet Wink

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 17:50

There is another argument thats goes along the lines of, using the much maligned new Tyranid codex - do we really want a new codex anytime soon? I'm quite contented with what we've got! I also take a fair bit of smug pride in using Dark Eldar as often your opponents stand agape in confusion and awe as to why you're using the army of paper boats and guys with a combined toughness and armour that barely rivals that of wet tissues...

Personally I'd rather they re-did those lame uber books such as Necrons and Grey Knights first!

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 19:34

@dangerous beans wrote:
I also take a fair bit of smug pride in using Dark Eldar as often your opponents stand agape in confusion and awe as to why you're using the army of paper boats and guys with a combined toughness and armour that barely rivals that of wet tissues...
^ This.

I remember the first time I entered GW-Helsinki with my new feldherr pack and all ready minis, didn't have that much of a plan but a shortly thought out 500 point list.
I found a group with four guys, one was just about to leave, and said that I could play. Was easy to notice they were all older than me, a short child archon had entered the field of the veterans (I think one was about 30, others still 20).
The three remaining asked what I had, and I responed "Dark Eldar".
One of them snorted, the other one said "okay, allright."
The one who remained quiet was my teammate against those two in 2v2 we had.

Yeah, I got beaten up and lost all my troops, the only thing that actually did something was a splintercannon on one of my warriors, but I didn't pick up the belief that DE are bad. And second game went a whole lot better, and the third one ended in me tabling!


Uh, on subject.
The codex is fairly new, and while it could use improvements, I wouldn't blame GW for not releasing another one for the next... 3 to 5 years?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 20:11

@dangerous beans wrote:
There is another argument thats goes along the lines of, using the much maligned new Tyranid codex
I don't think the Nids actually really have a solid stance to complain yet. When their old codex came out it was noted as weak compared to the previous one...and then they figured out Tervigon spam, and then FMCs became a thing, and then they had a great dex. I think their current dex is okay, but like the Daemons dex it is a dex that will take a bit of time to puzzle out properly because it's not a Sphess Marine insta-win dex.

Here's another thought - remember when Dark Angels were going to be broken because their dex was so uber? How many DA forces do you see at top tables nowadays?

Also, remember the Wolves, remember when they were "broken" and unfair? I can't recall the last tourney I went to and had to face Wolves, it certainly wasn't in 6th.

A good and bad codex is a very subjective thing. For my money, a truly good codex looks like the IG, the Ork, and the DE codex. They are codices that have the ability to field a number of different army types and to utilize a variety of different tools in doing so. They don't need uber units, but it does help them to have a lack of crud units.

DE have Mandrakes, and possibly the Cronus and Scourges as provably bad units. Toss in the Dais too.
Orks have Looted Wagons...and maybe Tankbustas...eh. Sorta Kommandos now too, sorta (though those are bad due to current outflank rules, if outflank becomes strong again then so do Kommandos...making them good I suppose. Looted Wagons will never be good)
IG, as provably bad...have I dunno, a couple of the tank varients. Maybe the Deathstrike.

All have a variety of affordable units that are individually good otherwise.
That's why the "broken" codices like Gray Knights that relied on one trick pony builds (we can ignore shaken/stunned with our Psyriflemen, fear us - rawr!) have fallen by the wayside. Because their codices were one dimensional and boring.

I don't *think* that the current Nids codex is really like that. I look at some of their Ld meta tools in the psyker heavy game at the moment and see a lot of potential. I mean, -6 Ld to Fateweaver/Farseer? Where is your Screamer Jetstar now? I do agree that it's not obvious win, and it very well may just be a blip on the radar, but I don't think it's fair to call the codex bad at this stage - I think it will be a codex that can do pretty well for a while and doesn't have a lot of useless gak in it.

I'll agree I don't want to get a bad DE dex.
But I also don't need it to be a power build dex either - I just want a Dex that can survive the changing times because sometimes you go a decade before you get a new dex.

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 21:13

Wouldn't say that the scourges were necessarily bad - haywire helps them a LOT, given the introduction of hull points...

But I do really like the current DE codex. Genuinely. There's so many viable options, few units that are terribad and nothing game-breaking. Any infantry unit is offset by being puny enough that most bog-standard guns will pose a threat, and our vehicles are in danger if something so much as looks at them threateningly. The only unit I can see in the DE book being classed as 'Overpowered' is the venom, and even then they're only worrying en mass (mathhammer says you'll stick 4 wounds to any target, a kill rate of 1.33 MEQ - hardly a stellar return on your 65 point investment).

If I was going to organise the codices in terms of how badly a new one was needed, DE would be the second last of the softback books, only behind Necrons who were clearly done for 6th edition. But more than any of that, the codex is basically a mix-and-match of 3 armies in one (kabalite, wych cult and coven) and is internally extremely well balanced and fun to play. My only hope for a future book is that it remains so.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sat Jan 25 2014, 23:49

Glad to hear that Mngwa! I think that most (if not all) the peeps who stick it out through thick and thin with DE show a greater degree of tactical finese over Derp Marines and even Eldau>

Totally agree with your opinion on the Nid dex Thor - its so fresh out the box that it needs some time before getting out the weighing scales of judgement, nonetheless the fact that a certain Ork forum is compiling a list of names who'll sign in association to the petition they're writing to GW to say that they don't want their codex changed does highlight a certain... panic, in the response to the new book!

Daemons weren't considered to be very tactically viable at first and now they are to be feared with their FMCs and weird gizmo combination units / psykers. I've not read or seen any of the new Nid dex but as you say I'm sure that there must be somethings in there that turn out to be decent on the table.

Both you and puppet have really hit on the concept of internal and external balance, which DE really seem to have - perhaps external balance can get swung by getting good with using DE, at which point we do seem to overtake a lot of other armies (until you meet a very nasty gunline - and even then...) on the battlefield as your opponent ends up reacting entirely to your plans rather than the other way around; its a bit like a tennis player landing shots all over his opponents court which wears the opposition down until a smash hit occurs winning him the round...

Anyway, I digress! I do agree that patience is its own reward, but perhaps not in the same way as the OP intended haha!! Laughing

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sun Jan 26 2014, 19:37

IMO internal balance is far, FAR more important to the health of the game than external balance. As an example, the previous Daemon codex was externally 'balanced' in that it could compete to a reasonable level with most of the other decent armies, but internal balance was horrific in that Tzeentch was streets ahead of everything else, barring Plaguebearers as troops, and bloodthirsters as HQ (Lord of Change still good, but not BT levels of killy).

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Patience is its own reward   Sun Jan 26 2014, 20:37

Every new codex is a source of dread these days for fear of duds and wtf'eries. Things aren't always as bad as initial fears (although who was afraid of the DA codex?) but they're still there. The DE codex has a lot of things that could be improved on imo but it's still a useful book. I'm in no hurry for a new book.
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