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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 01 2011, 19:15

Quote :
...looks like I'm within good strike range now - I would like to point out for all those players who bemoan how the Baron "slows" Beastmasters. This is Turn 2 - I am about to assault - they are not slow.

Guilty as charged and point taken.

Been staring myself blind on Venoms lately, but you got good use out of those Raider/Blasterwarrior combos. Perhaps a mix would indeed be healthier, relieving my poor Blasterborn... so thanks for showing me that, too. (But srsly dude get a paint job! rabbit )

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 01 2011, 19:25

Get a paint job?

Everything in my list but the Bests was fully painted and based. I reject your reality and replace it with one of my own.

But, yeah, back to the points. I'm glad you see how Trueborn can work, and I'm also glad you're looking at the Raider again. It's an *amazing* vehicle and still one of the best transports in the game. I really think some of the younger Archons out there could benefit by considering them in their current lists - the Venom is amazing, but it and the Raider are not in direct competition, they work together with synergy.
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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 02 2011, 19:18

@Thor665

I think he just means the other army. It is VERY pink, and just base-coated. I realize once the detail is painted it won't be so blindingly...pink. Haha. With no details the pink is just overbearing.

But yea, I like your list, and good batrep. Baron+beasts is awesome.


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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 02 2011, 19:55

Played a couple of games last night to try out my Venoms and Blasterborn - I can say the Venoms rocked, killing a C'Tan in one turn, and a whole squad of Dark Reapers in another, (I played against Necrons then Eldar).

The blasterborn pretty much sucked, bad rolling, getting killed in their venom and holofields really ruined their day.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 02 2011, 22:07

GreySeerZ wrote:
I think he just means the other army

Actually I was talking about the Beasts specifically, they stick out like a sore thumb in those pics. But yeah, the pinkness of the opponents was indeed overwhelming Laughing

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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Aug 03 2011, 07:59

kenny3760 wrote:

Got to admit I've not used Reavers so far in this edition, used them last codex, 2 units of 3 with 2 blasters each, so will need to give them a run out sometime to see how they do. The 6 man unit comes to what? 150 for 2 shots with heatlances might be worth thinking about, but then again the duality of blasterborn is missing.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that their duality is missing, they are pretty deadly anti infantry with their turboboost/bladevanes. Which is what you'll want to do with them most of the time, anyway, since it gives them better survivability. I think the ones who have success with reavers view them as anti infantry foremost, with the ability to knock open a serious thorn in your side. I wouldn't use them on transports, unless it was something I just have to destroy at any cost (seer council wave serpent?) Smile
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Apostle Pat
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sat Aug 06 2011, 07:49

I really like how Scourges fair against vehicles, but agreed the Reavers are better anti-infantry.. unless of course your already running venom spam haha.
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sat Aug 06 2011, 19:41

Believe me, Reavers have a place in a Venom spam list, and it's not AT.

I find that Reavers are best used as a distraction to draw fire away from your more valuable units, and this usually involves killing or severely maiming a keystone unit like Devastators, Long Fangs, Heavy Weapons Squads or Broadsides, and thus making them a threat to your enemy's firebase. Ideally, you'll want to go 36" so that your opponent knows that none of his infantry units on the table are safe from them. Although this may seem like a suicidal tactic (and it often is), just remember that a Reaver pack that just pulled a bladevane kill has a 3+ cover save and 4+ FNP, which is incredibly tough to crack.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 08 2011, 13:50

Unless they have a flamer...anywhere really. And I would be honestly shocked if you've gotten a bloodvane kill prior to them dying. For example, a unit of 10 space marines. Lets say you have 9 bikes, averaging 2 hits per bike, that's 18 hits, wounding on 5+ thats 6 wounds, saving on 3+ thats 2 dead. 9 with cluster caltrops result in: 6 reg = 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 dead. 3 ccs: 10.5 hits, 8.75 wounds, 2.91 dead. So about 4 dead. Either way, this is not getting you a pain token, even against a 5-man combat squad. I think the only squad you could reliably kill in one passing is guardsmen or some smaller unit of elites with no saves (which I can't think of right now), and even then, your much more expensive bike squad is getting blasted next turn.

I also don't understand how these bikes are drawing fire. Unless its due to the inexperience of your opponents. My gaming group knows for a fact how deadly my venoms and raiders full of wyches are. They focus the majority of their anti-tank on these units. Regular boltguns are more then enough to handle bikes. Throw in a flamer or heavy flamer, and they are pretty much demolished, or at least thinned enough to pose no real threat in the future. If your opponent is throwing his long fang missiles at your bikes, and not your transports, he is a fool. Space Marine armies do not lack short ranged firepower and regardless of where you land after a successful blood vane, you will be within range of regular boltguns or assault (either of which spells death).

In my experience, the only way bikes ever make their points back against a competent opponent is by destroying vehicles. Whether this is a unit of warwalkers, a leman russ, or a landraider your unit has just made its point back there. Now bloodvaning over a unit to get within range of a tank makes perfect sense. But assuming the unit spends the whole game turboing over that 1 10-man squad while taking no casualties in return, they may kill it by turn 3. I guarantee you that it will not still be a 9-man squad by turn 3.

Now, this is just my local meta, and if turboing bikes scare your opponents enough to draw their anti-tank firepower, then more power to you. But in my opinion it would be foolish to assume that in a competitive environment the same would hold true. I still fail to see what bloodvanes offer over poison shots as an anti infantry choice. 12 venom cannon shots: 8 hit, 4 wound, 1.33 dead. That one venom just killed almost as many space marines as 9 bloodvaning bikes. can do it safely from 36" range (avoiding any repercussions) and costs much less. Now, 9 bikes destroying a landraider/leman russ and they've almost made back their points (if not more so) and in many cases have now stranded an extremely valuable unit, forcing them to continue on foot, within range of poisoned death.
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Nepenthe
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 08 2011, 15:15

Ehh, why are you wounding muhreens on 5+? 'vanes are s4.
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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 08 2011, 15:28

Hahaha, wow, totally typo-ed that and continued on. So yes, against 10 with 9: 18 hits, 9 wounds, 3 dead. caltraps reg: 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead. caltraps ccs: 10.5 hits, 8.75 wounds, 2.91 dead. So 5 dead. So yes, you may possibly get a pain token from a combat squad. Any space marine unit of 5, you have a fair chance of getting it with caltraps. But then you gotta look at the amount of points for a 9man 3 caltrap unit. Its fairly expensive. More so then the unit your destroying.
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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 09 2011, 08:02

Venoms are good, but too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Venom lists tend to land themselves into trouble when they face a mech list, as their anti-tank are somewhat close-ranged and their poisoned shots only works if; A) Their troops are busted out from their transports, B) They have some heavy weapons infantry units that are stationary (Lootas, Long Fangs) or C) For some strange reason, the troops are outside their transports willingly.

In the end of the day, Raiders are important in any Dark Eldar List to at least soften the blow of facing off against a fully mechanized army. The ratio of Venoms to Raiders if you wish to include both into your army should be 2:1.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 09 2011, 16:47

I actually run them 1:2 Venoms:Raiders - works fine.

The ratio discussion is really a question of your anti-mech vs. your anti-infantry, and I believe that's where the debate is, not between Venoms to Raiders straight up. Probably your list and my list are pretty close in their anti-inf vs. anti-mech levels, and that's the real balance point.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Aug 09 2011, 17:14

Thor665 wrote:
@Kwi - I don't find spamming units any more or less inherently fun than not spamming units.

Ah, very well then. To me, Spammed units = windmills.

I am in denial and will probably always be charging windmills until I decide to get competitive.

Your list isn't so bad though, if you have had all venoms in the list then I would have swallowed my bile and skipped it. I think my definition of spam may be different.

But I see (accept) your point regardless.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sat Aug 13 2011, 18:14

I like having 3 Venoms mounted with 5 Trueborn packing 2 splinter cannon and 3 shard carbines. Having close to 90 shots a turn from 18 inches away while benifiting from night shields and flicker fields is a great weapon against horde armies.
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