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Apostle Pat
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PostSubject: Venom spam tactica   Sun Jul 24 2011, 11:33

Hey guys, I started this thread because I'm curious what other DE Venom spam armies are doing for tactics.

I currently run 7 venoms, 3 ravagers in my 1500 pt army. 4 of the venoms are blaster troops, while the last 3 are Dark Lance trueborn.

Yep, Dark Lance trueborn, I'll move the full 12 inches with the venom to get in range for the Dark Lance next turn, or deploy them in terrain, whichever is more advantageous to me.

I also kit them out to have flickerfields, and night shields. A majority of the time at tourneys here in FL, I'll run into another DE player and after reviewing my list questions me why I spent 70 points for night shields.

I tell them I need the added protection for Venoms, having a range and mobility advantage against troops is key for me. Especially when 75% of the armies played at a tourney are SM's.

What are some of the tactics used by other Venom heavy lists? Do you run Scourges?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sun Jul 24 2011, 16:28

I'm not sure if I'm Venom spam or Raider spam - I consider myself skimmer spam.

I'm probably considered fairly "conventional" in my tactics (though in my defense my 'conventional' tactics were odd when I was first using them back under the old dex, all you young whippersnappers are Johnny-come-latelys to the awesomeness of the DEldar)

I eschew Scourges, the only things I'll deign to run on foot when I'm running mech spam are RJBs and Beastmasters. I don't think Scourges are bad, per se, I just think the other options are better. Scourges are great for DSing in with Haywire Blasters, but for my money when they show up on turn 2+ I've already done half the work they're supposed to do.

Probably a tactic I enjoy that I haven't seen discussed much is one where I take advantage of the size of the Raider model (and it works...okay, for Venoms) But the basic plot is to always end your movement phase with an idea where your boys are going to leap to if the vehicle gets wrecked. I keep trailing engine ports pressed near handy terrain pieces (sometimes with objectives in them) or intentionally have the nose of my Raider/Venom poking out across a barricade so I can deploy on the other side of it, things of that nature. I cringe when people have hordes of vehicles just sort of...out there, on the tabletop. We're flying wet cardboard ships, lads, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Jul 25 2011, 05:55

Thats a good idea, preping the vehicle, I know recently I played a game where I had 3 venoms multi-assaulted by 1 wych squad... needless to say I'm never bunching them up again haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Jul 25 2011, 12:29

I woud mix Venom (Blasterborn) and Raider (whatever Warrior build You like). IMHO long range FTW.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Jul 25 2011, 15:57

I ran a 6 venom, 2 raider and 3 ravager list at Wargames con and went 5-1-1. All in all they are a lot of fun to run.

Currently I am considering running a mostly wyche bloodbride venom list for fun. 9 venoms with ladies all equiped with haywire grandes and maybe a archon and absolute bare minimum court to get the 10th venom.

my basic tactic is to rush the raiders forward, unload the wyches and assault whatever they can reach. I use the ravagers to take out high value threats or transports and then use the venoms to stand off and splinter to death whatever infantry is the greatest threat. As the game progress's I move the venoms up to get warriors and trueborn closer to increase my firepower on what was not taken out on turn 1.

This is of course very general and needs to be modified based on what you are playing.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Tue Jul 26 2011, 22:42

i run 4 venoms in my 1500 along with two ravengers, 2 raiders and a razorwing

i find more people afraid of the raiders full of wraks so they tend to leave the venoms alone. i find its nice to mix them up my 2000 will have 5 venoms and 3 raiders, 2 ravengers, and a razorwing.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 18:11

Something I'm going to try Real Soon Now is fielding:

Quote :
3 Wracks
Venom - dual splinter cannon
95

Being the cheapest Venom unit available to us I feel it's worth a shot. Also, I'm VERY partial to DL Trueborn, mainly due to the suicidal nature of Blasterborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 18:18

I don't have all the models yet, but I have considered seriously tyring a 10 venom list.

5 wyches with haywire in a venom x 6
5 bloodbrides with haywire in a venom x3
1 archon with court in venom

after that I can load up on ravagers and fast attack choices to deal with armor.

is it viable?? No clue, but it bet it is a ton of fun.
My initial thoughts are on mech heavy, they wyches and blood brides move up in venoms and jump out for 1st turn assaults with grenades.

ravagers, scourges and or reavers shoot whatever wyches can't reach.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes. it does have some glaring weakness, like not going first turn, but for fun....

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 21:36

@Raneth wrote:
Something I'm going to try Real Soon Now is fielding:

Quote :
3 Wracks
Venom - dual splinter cannon
95

Being the cheapest Venom unit available to us I feel it's worth a shot. Also, I'm VERY partial to DL Trueborn, mainly due to the suicidal nature of Blasterborn.

I couldn't agree more, DE Trueborn are nasty and mine survive much longer then Blasterborn. Most of the time when their Venom arrives from Reserve my opponent completely forgets whats inside till my next turn of shooting.


@GAR wrote:
I don't have all the models yet, but I have considered seriously tyring a 10 venom list.

5 wyches with haywire in a venom x 6
5 bloodbrides with haywire in a venom x3
1 archon with court in venom

after that I can load up on ravagers and fast attack choices to deal with armor.

is it viable?? No clue, but it bet it is a ton of fun.
My initial thoughts are on mech heavy, they wyches and blood brides move up in venoms and jump out for 1st turn butt with grenades.

ravagers, scourges and or reavers shoot whatever wyches can't reach.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes. it does have some glaring weakness, like not going first turn, but for fun....

I run 7 Venoms and they are completely nasty, aside from 2+ save units like terminators any unit I choose to fire at generally is wiped out, and against other Xenos armies its silly stupid, I've tabled 1500 points of Orks before. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 22:11

I've still yet to experience the 'suicidal Blasterborn' that everyone else does. My Blasterborn are no more or less suicide than any other DE unit - are you all hoping them out of their vehicles on Turn 1 or what?

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 22:41

This is exact reason why I don't like Blasterborn/Blaster warriors (in Venom).
I exchange 2 units (Venom + TB) for 1 transport and maybe unit inside.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Wed Jul 27 2011, 23:38

What I am having a problem with is the idea that spamming anything is "fun". Fun for who?

Are we mixing up "fun" with "winning"?

If you spam, then is there a need for a tactica?

I suppose I take the word "spam" as a negative word even though I love fried spam and eat it often - delicious.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Thu Jul 28 2011, 04:06

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
What I am having a problem with is the idea that spamming anything is "fun". Fun for who?

Are we mixing up "fun" with "winning"?

If you spam, then is there a need for a tactica?

I suppose I take the word "spam" as a negative word even though I love fried spam and eat it often - delicious.

At first I would agree but after having a Venom spam list... its tough, I enjoy it quite a bit, spamming can be confused with just wanting to win, but it takes a lot of strategy when your antitank is an 18 inch gun hidden inside. Against Tyranid, and foot Orks I have a fairly easy time, but against GK's... forget it, the psyfleman dreads are insane, and can easily table my army turn 3.

I think there is a difference between a "fluff" army and a "competitive" army for sure, either way I have fun but my Venom list is definitely competitive. Really when you play with someone its a social contract, so just make sure you both are playing the same type otherwise you won't have fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Thu Jul 28 2011, 14:31

Meh, I don't view using them as Spam, they look nothing alike.

Venoms are very popular because they are very good. Fast, have an invul save and can nip away at infantry with very little in the way of small arms return fire. Whats not to love.

That being said, a venom heavy list cannot be your only option, you need to include enough AT so the venoms can do their jobs and tear up infantry and monstrous creatures. How you want to do that is entirely up to you, but it does require some thinking.

My venoms are supported, or used in conjunction with, haywire grenades ( from wyches) ravagers, blasterborn, a pair of raiders, and scourges.

From a play perspective, I feel like I have a school of piranha nipping and bitting until the moment they move in for the kill. maybe its a bit geeky, but 7 or 8 venoms moving along picking off 1- 3 infantry each is death by papercut or nibbles or bites or however you want to view. To me, its just fun to run this kind of tactic.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Thu Jul 28 2011, 19:59

@Thor665 wrote:
I've still yet to experience the 'suicidal Blasterborn' that everyone else does. My Blasterborn are no more or less suicide than any other DE unit - are you all hoping them out of their vehicles on Turn 1 or what?

Turn 2 or 3 to be exact, but yeah, I wanted those blasters to get busy ASAP. Bad luck or bad planning, I don't know, but I've had a lot more trouble keeping them safe than any other unit. Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Thu Jul 28 2011, 22:11

@Thor665 wrote:
I've still yet to experience the 'suicidal Blasterborn' that everyone else does. My Blasterborn are no more or less suicide than any other DE unit - are you all hoping them out of their vehicles on Turn 1 or what?

I tried 4 BlasterBorn in the portal (no venom) and they popped a rhino and then popped Bjorn the following turn. Unfortunately Bjorn was "venerable" and I had to re-roll it, and only damaged his flamer/dcc - Bjorn promptly charged the blasterborn and ripped them to pieces.

For about 30 seconds there I thought they were fantastic - now they are just ok.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Fri Jul 29 2011, 12:28

Blasterborn are ok, but I still stick by giving them DL and either hiding them in terrain or shielding them behind other Venoms. I've also been experimenting with Scourges and they've have proven quite useful in stunning tanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Fri Jul 29 2011, 16:38

For venoms to work effectively they need complementary elements in the army. Those complementary elements are AT units, be they, Ravagers, Blasterborn, Raiders or other sources. Without these units against some (most?) armies spamming venoms is a pointless and fruitless exercise. If they enemy infantry is still tucked up in transports then your venoms might as well still be in the parking lot.

This explains the popularity of Blasterborn, it brings duality to the unit, a thing of great value in 40K. Pop the transport then splinter cannon the unit inside. 3 Blasterborn in a venom, with 2 cannons (is there another way to run them) for 146 points is a steal. The only other rich source of AT is a Ravager for 105. So take 3 units of each, 18 darklight shots and 36 poison shots and it's a good start.

However the rate of kills from a venom is still pretty low against MEQ, averages around 1 marine every 12 shots, not great, so we need to tip the balance in our favour by buying even more Venoms. The decision at this stage is whether to go for more but not quite so effective duality with blaster/warrior units or just purchase cheap venoms. I would suggest at this point the case can be made quite strongly to go for cheap venoms and gain better and more effective AT by sticking the warrior blaster unit in a raider. The cheap venoms ofcourse, come from the 3 wrack unit, 95 points a pop, so why not take 3 and a heamonculus to make them an irratating scoring unit. Take 3 raider/warrior units and total up the list and it's just undr 1500 points.

We have 24 darklight shots on 9 platforms, 72 splinter cannon shots and 6 scoring units. We also have some splinter rifle shots kicking about for some back up.

From this template list the adjustments to the ratio of darklight to poison shots can easily be adjusted to suit the army you are facing.

Is it spam, very much so.
Is it fun to use, yes.
Is it easy to use, not really, requires a fair bit of skill to get the elements workiing together.
Is it fun, that very much depends on you and how you play. Fun depends on the player not the army :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Fri Jul 29 2011, 18:02

@kenny3760 wrote:
3 Blasterborn in a venom, with 2 cannons (is there another way to run them) for 146 points is a steal. The only other rich source of AT is a Ravager for 105. So take 3 units of each, 18 darklight shots and 36 poison shots and it's a good start.

Except there's the pitfall of thinking Blasterborn =/= Ravager, which of course it isn't. A big part of me liking DL Trueborn is their 36" range, even despite the fact that they're effectively immobile once deployed.

Then there's the fact that, contrary to what you said, I feel Blasterborn are rather pricey for what they do. There are a few other units that I reckon are not only better at AT, but offer so at a lower price - Beastmasters foremost among them, but even the 6-strong Reaver squad seems a more attractive template.

I very much agree on your general point though, which is that Venom spam needs ****loads of supporting AT to be effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sat Jul 30 2011, 08:26

DL Trueborn have an immobile range of 36", Blasterborn in a venom have an effective mobile range of 24" and a possible range of just under 33". I think the versatility in being able to move and shoot, plus having the long range option is a big bonus.

Got to admit I've not used Reavers so far in this edition, used them last codex, 2 units of 3 with 2 blasters each, so will need to give them a run out sometime to see how they do. The 6 man unit comes to what? 150 for 2 shots with heatlances might be worth thinking about, but then again the duality of blasterborn is missing.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sat Jul 30 2011, 17:00

In my experience, they don't perform as well in that role as they did in the previous book.

The 5+ save just makes them too succeptable to small arms fire to move anything less than flat out for the 3+ save, the eldar jetbike move in the asault phase just isn't enough to save them normally. In that respect, you have to use the fly by ability to manage most of their killing.

The save combined with the lack of str makes them completely non-viable in close combat. So a shooting and butt followup is just as deadly, or worse.

People have had good experiences with them, but I can't figure out how to make them effective in my list and playstyle.

edit: really, it's going to auto correct a$$ault into butt?
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sun Jul 31 2011, 18:16

@Raneth wrote:
Turn 2 or 3 to be exact, but yeah, I wanted those blasters to get busy ASAP. Bad luck or bad planning, I don't know, but I've had a lot more trouble keeping them safe than any other unit. Neutral
By Turn 2-3 why are you getting them out? Just move 6" and shoot from inside the Venom, yeah?
I may need to link a batrep I just did with Blasterborn where they survived until Turn 4-5 and the only Blasterborn that died where the ones getting out of their Venoms.

@Kwi - I don't find spamming units any more or less inherently fun than not spamming units. I'll admit I don't have fun playing units that can't do what they're supposed to do (Mandrakes are the poster child for this, but there are quite a few units in the dex that are supposed to do 'A' really well, yet two pages over there's something that does 'A' as good or better, and does it for less, and also does 'B' I have more fun when my units have options, so I tend to take the second unit as opposed to the first.)
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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Sun Jul 31 2011, 20:11

Really, I've found the best way to run Blasterborn is to take four of them, stick them in a Venom with the second splinter cannon and a night shield, and have them joined by a Blaster Archon. Sure, it's more expensive and less mobile than three Ravagers, but what if you already have three Ravagers? Where are you going to get your insane AT spam from then? Five blasters from a Venom is pretty nasty, especially against transports (slag the transport with the blasters, then mow down the occupants with the splinter cannons. It's fun).

Regarding Reavers: I love them to death, I only wish I could afford to take more than a few per list. The way they're intended to be used is to make 36" bladevane attacks against targets of opportunity and draw enough fire so that your not-so-expendable force can get in range to begin the slaughter. It is truly amazing the lengths my opponents will go to when trying to bring these guys down, especially if they already have a pain token. Apparently it has to do with the fact that these guys will start racking up kills pretty quickly if left to their own devices (and even have their uses as a mobile cover save for infantry).

Anyways, back to the OT: I like to run between 6~12 squads in Venoms, usually Blaster Warriors, Blasterborn Archon retinues and occasionally a squad of Succubi (sounds better than Bloodbrides, and fits with the classic Wych Cult organization system) or Incubi, supported by three Ravagers and at least one Reaver pack. I tend to play against Tau and Imperial Guard a lot, so I take Night Shields on everything and hang out around 30~36" away, focusing my fire on mid-to-long range high-strength shooting like Autocannons, Lascannons, Ion Cannons (more frightening to me than Railguns, since they have a better chance at hitting) and Smart Missile Systems, and also taking out support units like Command Squads and anything with Markerlights. If they advance to get a better shot at me, I retreat. If I get an opening, I pounce (usually involving multiple Venom squads, if not my entire force).

I developed this technique primarily to defeat Tau, as even Warriors are simply too good in close combat against them, and one doesn't usually expect Dark Eldar to hang back and shoot. So far, it has served me well (in fact, every time I have tried it I ended up tabling the guy).

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 01 2011, 01:25

@Thor665 wrote:
By Turn 2-3 why are you getting them out? Just move 6" and shoot from inside the Venom, yeah?

...I don't know. Keeping them inside the Venom is something I really hadn't considered at all. Might have to rethink a lot of things, though it doesn't seem much safer at first glance.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom spam tactica   Mon Aug 01 2011, 04:27

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/386597.page

The above is a batrep I literally just did last Friday. I don't get the Trueborn out of their Venoms until turn 4 (I thought it was 5). They don't start dying until that point either, and had been unleashing consistent firepower at the enemy since Turn 1.

Keeping them in the vehicle is the same logic as keeping the 5 man Warrior squads in their vehicles - it forces the opponent to wreck the vehicle in order to get to kill what he wants to kill, which means he needs at least twice the units to manage the kill.

Otherwise, if you hop them out early and he still has units safe in vehicles and his option is shoot a Venom or shoot the Trueborn you're giving him an easy problem to solve.

I hate to make things easy for my opponent.
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