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CDSzafraniec
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Mon Jul 25 2011, 21:38

I would have also thought theyd release the court as a pack. They designed the unit so that you have to have one of each...thats a 4 fig box set right there, something like the Incubi or the Mandrakes.

In a perfect world, theyd errata the rules so you can take a court made up of whatever you want.
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Mon Jul 25 2011, 22:42

I'm 100% not surprised by GW's choice to release these in finecast but I am 100% disappointed in their decission.

This comes from having lots of experience with Finecast, to the tune of over $500 ( USD) worth of the stuff.

So far I have:
Lelith, Succubus, Archon, Haemonculus, Urien, 7 Boxes of Wracks and 9 Grots.

Finecast stinks and if I wasn't trying to build an all coven list I would avoid it all together. I would try and find metal versions of Lelith and Urien and forget the rest making Archon's and Succubi out of plastic kits (which I will still do anyway).

The miscast rate is truely mind numbing, in my experience its north of around 33%. Unfortunately DE are the big winners and losers in the finecast lottery. They have the most models and units released in the material and they have the worst sculpts for it (thin bodies, with lots of small spindly bits). You can pull any three blisters of the same model and at least one will have some level of miscast (paper thin blades, bubbles, incomplete chins or fingers, missing spikes, etc). Many models are also flash monsters, so even when the scults are complete they are flashed to hell requiring a good amount of clean up. The material is also extermely flexible almost to a fault; making me skeptical about the longivity of the paint on the model over time. I believe as the paint ages losing some of its own flexibility it will begin to crack and flake off because of how easily the finecast material may bend underneath it. The thinly scuplted DE with their equally thin blades and accessories soften (warp) under very little heat. I actually had to carry my finecast purchases with me into other stores because leaving them in the car during the summer was asking for issues. I have realized if I ever try to sell the army I will have to do it in the Winter rendeer

GW's pricing also remains very inconsistant, with the introduction of the new material we should have seen better levelized pricing. That the Succi and Archon (non-unique HQs) are $15.25 but the Haemonculus is $18.25 is ridiculous; especially given you can field 3 times the amount, breaking the less you can field the more it costs rule of GW model pricing. (i.e. Ravagers cost 50% more than Raiders). Even the TK Ushabti went down from $20+ to $16.50 ea. but not the Grots. scratch

Then add in the final insult with the release of GW's Storm of Magic wizards, beautiful and simple single all plastic kits for semi-unique models all for only $13.25. It's so far outside the typical GW pricing model it causes one to wonder. If any models deserved finecast it was those, especaily vs say the Medusae, Ur-Ghul, or Haemonculus where you will more than likely want 2-3 (or even more Ur-Ghul) of each when fielded.

(sorry for the rant but I also hope it lends some caution to those thinking of diving deeper into a greater finecast investment)

To the look of the models, I'll have to find better pics but as someone said previously the Ur-ghuls look like more erect VC ghouls, which would probably serve your wallet better and would definately be less stressfull to deal with.
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 01:09

Call customer service. Seriously, I bought two boxes of Wracks, two Grotesques(your local store can get these if they ask), and a Haemonculus on their release day at my LFGS. All of them had blowouts and miscasts of one kind or another except for one of the Grotesques which was missing a head. I sent pictures, they responded by asking me to call. When I called they only asked for batch numbers and where to mail new ones to me. Seriously, it was that easy. The replacements were 100% better. Haven't had any problems since then. They are very sensitive about their new thing and will bend over backwards to fix the problem. I'm an old timer to GW(about 20 years) and am still a little leery about Finecast, but I think that they are getting it worked out.

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 01:55

Yeah, my incubi had enough issues to keep me from beginning to paint them. I called CS, and the replacements were utterly perfect.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 02:33

I've heard nothing but good things regarding customer service in regards to Finecast - GW has admitted theri were problems with the early batches and I've heard multiple positive responses to how they're handling it. I'd call them in a heartbeat.

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WeeDawgNYC
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 03:12

I dont like either of them. Seems like GW needed reason to use all that left over finecast goo.
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 03:58

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
Call customer service. Seriously, I bought two boxes of Wracks, two Grotesques(your local store can get these if they ask), and a Haemonculus on their release day at my LFGS. All of them had blowouts and miscasts of one kind or another except for one of the Grotesques which was missing a head. I sent pictures, they responded by asking me to call. When I called they only asked for batch numbers and where to mail new ones to me. Seriously, it was that easy. The replacements were 100% better. Haven't had any problems since then. They are very sensitive about their new thing and will bend over backwards to fix the problem. I'm an old timer to GW(about 20 years) and am still a little leery about Finecast, but I think that they are getting it worked out.


Thanks, I too am a GW Old Timer been in since 1st ed. Fantasy and I have seen the good and the bad. I must say the move to Finecast has me more than a bit concerned. I know they just had a mngtmnt mtg recently and I'm sure finecast was a hot topic.

Funny you don't see much finecast in window displays lol!

I'm pretty lucky to be located within 30 minutes of a Battlebunker and no less than 3 other GW stores, so when I buy a box or boxes of something like the Wracks I make sure to open them on site which in most cases means the store is opening another box just to make whole the box I bought due to problems within. I always avoid buying the only one just for that reason They have been nothing but gracious about it in stores and via 800-394-Game.

With all the exposure to finecast so far any new FC release doesn't bring with it equal excitement. I've bought Finecast day 1 (Lelith was originally released as a two part mold and later updated to a single sprue) and just a few days ago and I have not seen a huge improvement in the number of errors usually what happens is you become more numb and accedpting of slight issues knowing that it could be worse.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 05:04

You remember the switch from lead to pewter(or white metal I think they called it) then: everything was brittle and people were pulling their hair out. Finecast seems to be something that has the potential to be fantastic for the reasons listed by GW(greater detail in new sculpts, less pinning) and the potential to be the pain in our rears that the early releases were. I guess time will tell. That being said, the replacements that I got for my Wracks and Grotesques were excellent. Smart move buying them in the store and opening them. Our closest GW store is 40 minutes away and staffed by apathetic people that clearly aren't being paid enough.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 08:03

Stay on topic please, pruning will happen when evil powers are restored.

Meanwhile, here's a much clearer pic courtesy of Hogs Of War.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 13:45

Definitely not worth £10 each. Although the Medusae do remind me of the Cephalyx from PP.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 15:36

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cryx/units/necrosurgeon-stitch-thralls

14$ is about £8.54. Fail much? (well, You actually get 3 Ghuls and Haemi, but since You still must sculpt Sslyth, which WILL be pain in butt for most of gamers converting Medusae from Warrior (or "Doc") isn't problem.)
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 16:12

@Urien Rakarth wrote:
Definitely not worth £10 each.

Totally agree, at least now we know what GW's vision is for these models (lookwise) so we can now go about trying to replicate them some other way for less; i.e. using VC ghouls for Ur-Ghuls which I'm starting to really like the idea of.

Another few Ur-Ghul replacement ideas:

Pink horrors, lots in a box, plastic and relatively inexpensive. (I think the 3rd pic below the main shows them the best). I might trim down some of the other extra non-arm appendages.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440043a&prodId=prod860024a

VC Strigoi Vampires, metal and a good clip cheaper.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440102a&prodId=prod1160032

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 17:35

It's worth pointing out that each model has two head variants.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Tue Jul 26 2011, 21:20

I still might be digging on the Medusae - I'll just need to see the whole model. I like the stance the the skirt. Neutral on the head, but I'm not really sure yet exactly what's going on there.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 06:27

@Thor665 wrote:
Neutral on the head, but I'm not really sure yet exactly what's going on there.

"The visored slave-beings .... are hosts to strange creatures .... known as Medusae ...... [who] look like a collection of brains and spinal cords one atop another, ..... "

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 06:30

I'm aware of the general thrust of what they're going for - I want to actually really see it to draw conclusions for my own purposes of the model. If you grok the difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 09:26

Jesterday i had a close look into the WD... and holy cow, let me tell you, i just LOVE the medusae. Sooo dark and sinister... and gribbly. The parasite on its head makes the tyranid-side inside me dance the happy-gargoyle-dance.

The ghul answers finally the question where the wierd skulls with too many eyes, that hang around the DE trophy racks, belong to. These are no eyes...
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 09:50

Nope, in the description in the codex, Ur-Ghul are blind but with heightened olifactory senses instead.
So that's just ha whole bunch of nostrils...
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 10:19

I'm not overwhelmed by these models. They feel as an afterthought to me. But they certainly are not bad and I will use them once I start a court.

Quick question for my fellow archons about the medusae. Because I'm disapointed with the single model (seeing as gobsmacked pointed out they are parasites on other creatures as i inderstand from the codex). You guys think I could chop the head off and use other models (like a wrack, whych, kabalite warrior or whatever) for the body? Thus creating a variety of hosts for the medusae. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 13:57

Don't see why not.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 14:08

Indeed. Or hell, just go with 2 "host" models and greenstuff, this would benefit twice (more money in pocket + sculpting experience).

Also, I've checked GW report on BoLS... while it not include profits after "FineCash", I think it made things worse. For them and us. Higher prices => people quit 40k => less sales => less profit => higher prices etc.

Economy n00bz.
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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 16:04

@Sky Serpent wrote:
It's worth pointing out that each model has two head variants.

Is this regarding the Ur-Ghul and Medusae? If so where did you see this information, iirc looking at the WD yesterday I didn't see any mention of multiple head options. Unless you're saying there are two completely seperate scuplts for each then maybe because I don't see how the Ur-Ghul pictured in the WD could possibly have seperate heads (or the point of it really based on its generic nature).

Regarding GW's profits and their business model, as L_O has pointed out it seems they are continuing down the wrong path. Unfortunately while they may contend the prices of their models are not to far out of line with other systems like Warmachine (and they wouldn't be entirely wrong) they fail to take into account the amount of models the average game takes to play.

It's not all to uncommon for a player to spend north of $600 on a 2,000 point 40k list (a typical game), while for Warmachine a 35 point list is typically less than half that cost. This isn't only impacting new players to the hobby but veterans as well. New players looking at a smaller investment to delve into something they may loose interest in after a few months; while veteran 40k players who already may have 1 or 2 very large expensive 40k armies choose to start Warmachine in lue of another 40k army and its accompanying large price tag.


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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 16:22

There are two photos, one with whole model and one with different head. They are different, just take close look... or enlarge photo Gobsamkked posted Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 16:32

@Local_Ork wrote:
There are two photos, one with whole model and one with different head. They are different, just take close look... or enlarge photo Gobsamkked posted Wink


Thanks, im old and my eyes are not the best. affraid

I wouldn't be surprised if either wasn't actually two seperate sculpts insted of just seperate heads. Just looking at how the Ur-Ghul head interacts with the body it doesn't seem like a seperate piece, unless the head and spine are a single piece. Dunno guess it really doesn't matter in the long run.

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PostSubject: Re: Ur-ghul and Medusae   Wed Jul 27 2011, 21:11

Cheers for the better pictures. Its weird that we have 2 of GW's big hitters putting out models that seem to only draw an ok thumbs up. The models certainly are alien in appearance, but lack wow factor imo.

Jurys still out for me.
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