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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Thu Jan 16 2014, 17:20

I just want PainKnight.

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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 02:51

Id also like to see two version's of the WWP. small size as is, but able to assault out of it

and a large one for vehicles
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 12:23

I'd quite like Mandrakes to be good again (at the very least start with a Pain Token just to get a shooting attack, or the ability to assault from infiltrating). Decaptitator especially.
It might seem a silly thing, but I'd also like to see a return for Tormentor Helms. It would be nice for Incubi to have some sort of small pathetic pistol at least.
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 13:04

Overall, I'd really like us to deal with our enemies in a different way to other armies. I'd like to see game mechanics that reflect fear and pain more. Engaging in a far more psychological method of warfare than other races. Weapons that effect Leadership and require break/pinning tests already exist but I think we should have them and that ours should be more advanced. For a start, we need the ability to remove Fearless/ATSKNF from targets so that our full arsenal can be brought to bear.

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 15:00

Yes, I think psychology/leadership is the least explored/used aspect of the game. Throw in some other interesting hoodoo type effects and it could provide the Dark Eldar with an interesting niche to play.
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 17:50

Oh. Fear would be nice.
I'd quite like normal grenade upgrades for units, but change the Phantasm Launcher so it makes the unit cause Fear instead. That'd be a good one.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 18:03

@Squidmaster wrote:
Oh. Fear would be nice.
I'd quite like normal grenade upgrades for units, but change the Phantasm Launcher so it makes the unit cause Fear instead. That'd be a good one.

I look forward to never, ever taking that upgrade.  Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Fri Jan 17 2014, 22:28

Don't particularly want it, but it might be interesting if they exchanged the pinning on the gravtalons into giving bladevanes the same profile as grav guns.

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sat Jan 18 2014, 02:18

make the decapitator an IC so it can actually join unit of mandrakes
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sat Jan 18 2014, 17:51

All I'd want would be Wyches that were good at combat and weren't just used as suicide squads.

Other than that, I wouldn't really want any change. If I can win with the current codex and enjoy it with more than just one build then I really don't want any change. (Change gives them a chance to make me fall out of love with DE and ruin the fluff)

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sat Jan 18 2014, 17:59

Uriken Rakarth gets his cost cut by 50%. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Thu Jan 23 2014, 17:23

I've thought quite a bit about a 6e codex for DE and while I'm very happy with what we have and hope that if they re-do it they just don't ruin it I have had some thoughts on what I would do with a new codex...

- Perhaps give advantages for pain tokens beyond 3. Rage, perhaps extra Strength or Toughness. It isn't a thing that happens a ton but in some builds (Urien with wracks and grotesques) it is certainly possible to start with 2 or even 3 tokens in a unit from the start. I'm still playing with this idea as it is one of my newer thoughts.

- Combat drugs ... replace the run result with +3" to runs instead of an extra dice (similar to what Tyranids just got) or replace entirely with +1T

- Aversion to pyschics ... roll a 5+ deny the witch because they are so against using psychic powers.

- DE get their own command traits. Possibilities: The ability to choose nightfighting that extends 1-2 rounds, the HQ "injects" drugs into 1-3 units that normally wouldn't have them, the HQ gets shrouded and extends that to units within 12", the HQ may disembark and assault after a vehicle moves 12", the warlord grants d3 pain tokens to units at the start of the game or simply he starts the game with an extra one, HQ causes fear, etc...

- Trueborn ... allow them to purchase Dissie cannons like they do DLs now.

- Wyches can use their dodge on overwatch ... not against all shooting, just overwatch. Make Bloodborn dodge 3+ (with a slight point increase) to make them a bit more viable as right now they aren't worth the upgrade.

- Mandrakes ... poor mandrakes ... make them usable. Some ideas: they are troops, they start with a token or the shooting attack doesn't require one, instead of infiltrate they "appear from terrain" from reserves and can assault, allow their special character access to some sort of special weapons or access to other rules (rending attacks, shrouded, etc...), give them poisoned or "dark" weapons, "shadow jump" which is a teleport type move from terrain to terrain but on a 1 d3 or d6 get lost in the shadows without saves, additional advantage to pain tokens (if you maintain that their shooting attack is pain token based), allow their HQ to join them, a rule that gives them an "aura" that acts like offensive grenades or they just use the shadows to that effect, they don't get overwatched as they appear from the shadows of their enemies ... so many possibilities and many of them discussed on these boards on how to fix them.

- Fix the court of the archon ... however that may need to happen.

- The venom should see a point increase, perhaps 5-10 points, as 12 poisoned shots at a time is pretty good along with being a transport and the built in invuln save. I would also allow the venom to replace splinter cannons with dissie cannons at appropriate cost (~15 points fair) (but not a DL ... that way it remains mostly AI).

- Perhaps allow raiders to take a "thickened hull" which increases armor to 11 at a cost. (~10pts?)

- Our fliers need to be slightly improved to fit into the current mix of fliers better. Not sure how I'd do that quite yet. They aren't really that bad but could use a slight boost (or perhaps a slight points decrease).

- Allow archons to take jetbikes or create a new HQ that is based on a jetbike. Make Reavers troops when you take that HQ.

- Give Ravagers the option to purchase skyfire and infiltrate. Doesn't have to come standard but the option to purchase it would be nice and addresses some AA needs.

- Allow the Dias to take vehicle upgrades. Drop the price maybe 25% on top of that. As is costs way too much to consider taking.

- Webway portal ... allow units to assault out of it. Or perhaps make it a "shooting attack" for the character carrying it with a 12" range and d6" scatter (adjusted by BS of course) so you move up, fire your special dark weapon that opens the portal where it hits. Doesn't need to cause damage to anything hit (but perhaps they save and move or fail and die) but it improves it by giving you further room to "drop" it in the employee backfield or deploy it without having to leave your transport.

- Make "jink" a separate save, not a cover save ... but then that would probably be a core rulebook change, not a codex change.


There are tons of other ideas I've seen that I've been both for and against and everyone has their opinions ... and I am sure I have thought of others I've since forgotten and not all mine are great I'm sure (and obviously I haven't really thought much about points costs ... seems most units of late have gotten a small refund on cost so we'd likely see some of that too) ... but there are some thoughts for today...
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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Thu Jan 23 2014, 17:30

...oh ...and perhaps some move, shoot, move ability as well. Afterall we're supposed to be the mobile army but others have those rules now making them able to move into and out of cover between shots without much concern. Honestly I'd rather just see that removed or a very rare rule but given its presence now don't see that happening. Thus the DE need to be given a bit more mobility again to make us the kings of the mobile armies.
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 10:08

@AvInNebr wrote:
- DE get their own command traits.  Possibilities: The ability to choose nightfighting that extends 1-2 rounds, the HQ "injects" drugs into 1-3 units that normally wouldn't have them, the HQ gets shrouded and extends that to units within 12", the HQ may disembark and assault after a vehicle moves 12", the warlord grants d3 pain tokens to units at the start of the game or simply he starts the game with an extra one, HQ causes fear, etc...

On current form, I'd settle for a warlord table that only sucked a little bit.

@AvInNebr wrote:
- Trueborn ... allow them to purchase Dissie cannons like they do DLs now.

I'd love to be able to take the full variety of our special and heavy weapons in warrior and trueborn squads. Dissies, haywire blasters and heat lances... that would give us seven options to choose from in a basic warrior squad. How many does a space marine tactical squad these days? Twelve? If the can pull graviton guns from Rogue Trader's back passage then surely we can get a couple of options form our more esoteric troops consolidated into our front line grunts  Mad 

@AvInNebr wrote:
- Wyches can use their dodge on overwatch ... not against all shooting, just overwatch.  Make Bloodborn dodge 3+ (with a slight point increase) to make them a bit more viable as right now they aren't worth the upgrade.

I like this. I had been hoping for some kind of Dirge-caster style overwatch blocking (reworked horrorfex? tormentor helm?), but really its wyches that need the extra defence. Dodging overwatch would make sense.

Good thoughts, AvInNebr.

While we're wishlisting, here are a couple of other things I would love to see:

- Vector Dancer on our fliers  Evil or Very Mad 
- haywire grenade access for Scourges
- plasma grenade access for Warriors
- agoniser to finally get poison 4+
- no 'dark avatar' or related craftworld rip-off
- no Matt Ward fluff
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 18:35

If I may add my bit... I dont think we are overpriced... yes, SMs cost 14, but they cant take such amazing transport like Venom. They dont hurt everything on 4+...

Yes Haemi costs something close to Librarian and seems underwhelming compared to him, but he is not. Haemi is an unit buff... for 60 pts you get Unit-wide FNP and amazing template weapon. Oh and if your unit is going down you just take the token into a fresh unit and continue buffing. :-)


You can even leave him in raider and go on Liqui-spree. However, there are things that need some work...

- Mandrakes... please, please, please...
- Trueborn Dissies, maybe even Kabalites
- Razorwing into Fast Attack
- Voidraven something to make him on par with Ravager's usefulness
- Scourges need fixing. Either Truebon spec weapons allowance or HWBlasters need to be put on par with Eldar ones (they are the same tech)
- WITHOUT QUESTION Archon on a bike or a Skyboard (Succubus can stay on foot for all I care. :-))
- At least one more shooting weapon option for troops... Something without poison.
- Maybe some special or heavy weapon that ignores cover.
- Maybe a poison 4+ option for CC...
- (you will want to stone me now... :-)) Tantalus as Dedicated transport for Troops (or something that can hold 12+ models
- Something really cool and interesting... a Walker... Something like Haemi-operated Talos. Or some kind of flying, snatching creature :-D
- Making wyches and especially Brides useful... not that they are that bad, but every clever player knows that if they ride in Venom, he just needs to kill the Venom to kill the unit inside and raider wyches with Haemi for FNP is darn expensive... the 4+ dodge should be applicable universally. Its a dodge. Or at least vehicle explosions.
- Making Venoms for 6 models would go a loooong way too.
- PGL option for Klaivex or Plasmas for Incubi.
- Beasts revamp. They lost their usefulness with all the barrage and stuff...
- Please keep HWG on Trueborn... my poison gunboat that can assault vehicles is so sweeeet.

EDIT: I forgot... make our weapons cost the same as others... Dark lance is not better than Lascannon, yet costs 25% more. And its not the only thing.
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 19:27

@aurynn wrote:
If I may add my bit... I dont think we are overpriced... yes, SMs cost 14, but they cant take such amazing transport like Venom. They dont hurt everything on 4+...

No. On the other hand, they have:

+1S
+1T
A 3+ (i.e. meaningful) save
Frag and Krak grenades as standard
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
Combat Squads

Also, whilst they don't wound everything on a 4+, that also means that they wound T3 units on 3s, rather than 4s. And, against larger targets, they have a much better selection of special and heavy weapons - and can take heavy weapons in 5-man squads.

Furthermore, for as good as the venom is, I think you're still overselling it:

1) Warriors will not always be in a venom. If the venom is a good transport, then it should be priced appropriately, rather than getting it's cost added to warriors whether or not they take it.

2) Marines have some damn good transports too:
- Rhino (very cheap, reasonable armour and good for blocking LoS to models or slowing down melee units)
- Razorback (their equivalent of a venom - arguably worse, but has better armour, and actually has a decent choice of weapons to supplement an army. It also has a capacity of 6 - so you can fit a 5-man squad and a character in it.)
- Drop Pods (Can arrive on turn 1, and ignore most of the dangers associated with deep striking)

Really, marines are hardly behind in terms of their transports. Also, t

@aurynn wrote:
Yes Haemi costs something close to Librarian and seems underwhelming compared to him, but he is not. Haemi is an unit buff... for 60 pts you get Unit-wide FNP and amazing template weapon. Oh and if your unit is going down you just take the token into a fresh unit and continue buffing. :-)


He's also less durable, far less versatile and markedly worse in combat.

Here's the thing; if they had the same statline, then I'd be inclined to agree that a pain token is roughly equal to a psychic power. However, the librarian also has a much better statline and brings Ld10 to any squad he joins - whereas a haemonculus has worse Ld than most squad sergeants.

Now, granted, the Liquifier Gun is probably better than any weapons (barring psychic powers) the librarian gets (although, the librarian's force weapons give him more options in combat), but in that case it's the liquifier gun that needs to be priced appropriately. You shouldn't need to take one just to make a haemonculus cost effective.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 21:20

Pain token is automatic, transferrable, boostable buff for a squad... I would argue its much more potent than a simple psychic power, but not as strong as if the unit had FNP USR.

The point is (and that had been pointed out to me by a much, much more W40K-experienced friend) that units are not priced only "per stat" or "per USR" or "per equip". Their synergy, possibilities, combination of certain rules and other things should and usually is calculated into their costs.

You cannot set a point value for every statistic and USR and calculate unit costs just by these. It would grossly unbalance the game. Example - Vect Dais... costs a lot of points seemingly (roughly 30% more than Raider and Ravager combined), but if you think about the synergies and what it really means to have it, I say its fairly priced. Check the prices of Grey Knight units too. 14 models per 1000pt army, but their synergy is great.

Haemonculus is extremely versatile HQ, that can be taken in threes per slot (needs to cost something too). With low survivability I grant you, but you always have LOS!. It can be used in sooo many ways that I can imagine lists with 1 FOC and 6 haemis.

Hmmm... one more thing... a cheaper grenade launcher that only has assault grenades. Without defensives.

And something that will never happen - HWG for warriors.
And give wyches something that will change their use from throwaway HWG troop into something useful during the whole game.

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 22:18

@aurynn wrote:
Pain token is automatic, transferrable, boostable buff for a squad... I would argue its much more potent than a simple psychic power, but not as strong as if the unit had FNP USR.

Well, surely it depends on the circumstances? I'd say both are useful to their respective armies.

FNP is useful for our army because it actually gives us a save against basic weapons, and makes us a bit more resilient when our vehicles crash.

With marines, they already get a good save against a lot of weapons, so other buffs are probably more useful - and the choice of lores gives them more versatility.

@aurynn wrote:
The point is (and that had been pointed out to me by a much, much more W40K-experienced friend) that units are not priced only "per stat" or "per USR" or "per equip". Their synergy, possibilities, combination of certain rules and other things should and usually is calculated into their costs.

That might well be the case, but it still doesn't make it a good way of doing things. Units with different options should NEVER be priced with the assumption that they'll choose have a specific option and/or transport.

Just in the examples you mentioned earlier:

- If warriors are indeed priced because of their capability to take a venom then any warrior squad that doesn't take a venom becomes overpriced. So, if you want to walk them or take a raider (or a squad larger than 5), then you're automatically paying too much.

- If a Haemonculus is more expensive than he should be, because he can take a liquifier gun, then any haemonculus that doesn't take a liquifier gun becomes overcosted.

Surely you can see why this makes for terrible game design?

@aurynn wrote:
You cannot set a point value for every statistic and USR and calculate unit costs just by these. It would grossly unbalance the game.

Not only can you, but you have to. In the above examples, transports have point costs, liquifier guns have point costs. You are putting a value on them.

Likewise, models have point costs that include their statline and any other rules/abilities they possess. If their costs do not accurately reflect their abilities, then that is a mistake on the writer's part.

Furthermore, how exactly would it unbalance the game? Because it might lead to units and their options being appropriately costed? As it is, half the options looking like they were priced by dart-board.

@aurynn wrote:
Example - Vect Dais... costs a lot of points seemingly (roughly 30% more than Raider and Ravager combined), but if you think about the synergies and what it really means to have it, I say its fairly priced.

What?

You're using the Dais as an example of a well-costed unit? By what possible measure? It's a Ravager with a bit more armour that can't take any upgrades... and it costs twice as much as a ravager. Oh, and it's also a transport for a 240pt HQ unit (needed just to unlock the damn thing) and 9 other models - just in case you hadn't painted a big enough target on it.

What's the awsome synergy I'm missing?

@aurynn wrote:
Check the prices of Grey Knight units too. 14 models per 1000pt army, but their synergy is great.


Which models are those, and what's the synergy?

@aurynn wrote:

Haemonculus is extremely versatile HQ, that can be taken in threes per slot (needs to cost something too). With low survivability I grant you, but you always have LOS!. It can be used in sooo many ways that I can imagine lists with 1 FOC and 6 haemis.

I can imagine that too. I'm imagining it losing badly because the DE player has spent 300pts on HQs.  lol!

More seriously, I'm not saying that Haemonculi are bad HQs or anything (although, I'm unsure about the 'versatile' aspect - what do they do beyond pain tokens and liquifier guns?). However, if marine utility HQs are getting hefty point drops (35-40%), it would be nice if ours at least got a small cut in price (especially since FNP has been made markedly worse for us in 6th).

Alternatively, if FNP goes back to 4+ for DE, I'd be happy for Haemonculi to stay at the same price.  Wink 

(Although, something to make ancient haemonculi worth considering wouldn't go amiss...)
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Sun Jan 26 2014, 23:44

@aurynn wrote:
Example - Vect Dais... costs a lot of points seemingly (roughly 30% more than Raider and Ravager combined), but if you think about the synergies and what it really means to have it, I say its fairly priced.
You find an inferior Ravager/overpriced Raider combo to be worth it at the price of the Dais?
I will suggest that you are out of your gourd Wink

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 08:40

I am on my mobile so I will keep it short.

300pts per HQ is too much? Some armies are paying more and the Vect/Coteaz combo that won Nova tournament is well over that value. So what? If every 60 pt LiquiHaemi manages to kill measly 3 marines flaming them from their raider and his token saves 2 warriors, he is paid for.

Dais - 200 for an AV13 transport with 3 lances that does not take a HS slot? Making your transport immune to S6 weapons, grossly limiting effectiveness of Eldar Serpent Spam or any other AT for that matter means that the grots WILL get in your enemy's face. Even with warriors Vect is safe to get into charge range of any MC safely and between him and splinterfire the MC is as good as dead. Wraithknights, Tyranids, Riptides, DPs. And that is round 1 or 2. Rinse and repeat. Many ppl on this forum who tried Dais swear by it as it survives the whole game and needs about 3 rounds to pay itself, Vect and the unit inside. If not anything, it means it shoots for 6 turns. Ravagers are lucky to survive 3. Just this makes it worth a hefty increase. And if the enemy concentrates on Dais and not Ravagers, well more shooting from those babies. It makes the enemy choose between bad and worse decision, messing up with target priority. And that is worth a lot.

All I am saying is that our pricing may seem steep, but I would much rather see the non-working part of our dex to get a treatment than a price decrease. I find DE on par with most 6th dexes. Even Tau are OK. The only one I struggle against are Eldar. And I dont want to get Eldar treatment.

Guys I dont want to argue if you dont see things as I do. Lets continue with the theme of this thread and not with arguing who is right. I just wanted to post my opinion on the matter discussed and I dont claim infailability. However you are welcome to PM me. I love a good, civil, discussion. :-) Or make a thread and send me link. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 08:43

I think giving Scourges skyfire would go a loooong way into fixing them too

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 09:52

Or make them flying... :-) Those are priced a bit steep. They should be alpha-strike specialist unit but need to take too many excess models to have an effect. I would like to see in abilities between swooping hawks and trueborn. As a unit they are rather unique in concept, but the rules dont reflect it. Flying, give them HWG and ability to bombard units they fly over. :-D well thats never going to happen... :-)
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 13:36

Is the general consensus still that the Dais can't take any upgrades? Because its entry says: "it is treated exactly like a Raider", which should mean it can take the same upgrades.
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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 15:29

It is clarified in the FAQ:
Q: Can the Dias of Destruction take any of the vehicle upgrades available to Raiders? (p82)
A: No.

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PostSubject: Re: If we get a 6th Edition Codex...   Mon Jan 27 2014, 15:49

Also though a previous poster suggested it can carry Grots...it really can't in any functional way. I suppose you could do a switcheroo on your first turn, but Grots cannot start the game embarked on the Dais. It's against the rules.

But I will agree that for about +140 points you can get a transport that lacks flickerfields or n.shields, can't use all of its weaponry when you move over 6", and brings the benefit of AV13 open topped - which is like a total brick wall versus enemy armies, because very few armies bring the tools to kill an AV 13 vehicle when all the rest of the army is AV 10-11 so there is literally only 1 threat that needs higher strength weaponry, I know that would stop any of my TAC lists cold with its survivability Wink But, hey, it doesn't take up a force org chart...like any other dedicated transport...therefore it's worth it!

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