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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Thu Jan 16 2014, 09:18

I strongly suspect that GW will not be leaving the Nids without a transport option. It just won't be a Mycetic Spore. They went to the trouble of adding in Bulky, Very Bulky etc to various units so I think we will be seeing some sort of giant bug with a transport capacity at some point.

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Thu Jan 16 2014, 19:06

by the looks of the old epic stuff that was mooted as a new superheavy option, they do have a transport-type big-bug. i think armourcast even made a model for the epic version back in the day.
no idea what is was called though, all nids sound the same to me. gauntfex-o'saurus or something...i dunno....
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Fri Jan 17 2014, 17:44

I played against some Nids yesterday, and though it came to a draw they were some noticeable problems.

Flying Monstrous Creatures are still the bomb, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the competitive norm became two flying Hive Tyrants and two or three Crones/Harpies. The Crones/Harpies aren't very tough, but because they're zooming and you have to snap-shoot to hit them, they come across quite well.
The Exocrine did ok for itself, but end of the day it's just a massive cannon (reduced BS if it moves).

The big problem now is Synapse. Less things are synapse, and if creatures are outside it's range they have to resort to instictive behaviour, which is now a lot more harsh.
In yesterdays game, I took down a Zoanathrope, meaning some Termagants and Carnifexes needed to roll for instinctive behaviour. Carnifexes got away with it, but Termagants were forced to run for cover (not able to shoot) and so quickly became Incubi-fodder.
The Carnifexes failed later in the game, and ended up becoming cannibals! This result on the "Hunt" table means the unit takes one hit per model and their base strength. Both left took a wound. Now for them being multi-wound it wasn't too bad, but for something like Hormagaunts who use the same table, they could wipe themselves out!
Later in the game the loss of a synapse creature left a large unit of Hormagaunts and the remains of some Termagants out of range as well, the result being they were run off the board!
The tactic against Nids is clear now: kill the synapse creatures. That'll severely weaken the already nerfed horde units!

Also, apparently Nids now need TWO pairs of combat weapons to get a bonus attack. Stupid.


As a bonus, the Codex hasn't been FAQed yet, so there are two interesting flaws (because it is a VERY poorly written book).

1/ Nothing to stop Nids taking Fortifications.

2/ Pyrovore. The wording of the rules is that whenever it dies, every unit takes a number of hits equal to the number of models with d6" of the Pyrovore.
Note: that did not say every unit within a range. It said EVERY UNIT. EVERYWHERE. This is clearly a mistake, but its a clear sign of exactly what's wrong here. It is a very poorly written book.
My opponent was actually telling me about people abusing this already, putting Pyrovores at the top of large buildings with large Gaunt squads below, and then just throwing them off to kill them and hit every unit on the board!

3/ There is no author. At the beginning of every Codex, it says who wrote it. This one was written by "the development team". So either no individual writer, which explains why its a mess, or the writer didn't want his name on it, which means either he thought it was bad or someone thought Matt Ward's name would ruin it for everyone.
- Actually I just thought! Considering his love for his Ultramarines and the boosts he gives them when he writes rules for anything, it makes sense that he would write a terrible Nid Codex to boost his Tyrannic War Veterans!



Anyway, poison seems to be the way to go as always. Kill the synapse, and take a Razorwing or two to deal with the flying monstrous creatures (mine came on turn three and took the Crone down straight away - Disintegrators and Splinter Cannon for the win). Also, some of their psychic powers are still a bit mean, so slap Lady Malys into some Incubi for a real good laugh. I also recommend Night Shields - they twice saved a Raider from gunslinging Carnifexes.
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Fri Jan 17 2014, 18:40

Squidmaster wrote:

As a bonus, the Codex hasn't been FAQed yet, so there are two interesting flaws (because it is a VERY poorly written book).

1/ Nothing to stop Nids taking Fortifications.

2/ Pyrovore. The wording of the rules is that whenever it dies, every unit takes a number of hits equal to the number of models with d6" of the Pyrovore.
Note: that did not say every unit within a range. It said EVERY UNIT. EVERYWHERE. This is clearly a mistake, but its a clear sign of exactly what's wrong here. It is a very poorly written book.
My opponent was actually telling me about people abusing this already, putting Pyrovores at the top of large buildings with large Gaunt squads below, and then just throwing them off to kill them and hit every unit on the board!

Thanks for the breakdown, I essentially agree with pretty much everything you have up there-- though I don't understand people freaking out about synapse-- it just went back to how it was imo.

Though I have to say: on fortifications, I think tyranids should absolutely be allowed to take them. There's already information about spore chimneys, tyrannoforming, etc. etc. out there. If every other alien race can run their little "counts as" models, why not the bugs?

On the pyrovore, just a clarification: (1) It has to die due to a wound that causes Instant Death, and (2) I can see why people read it as you described, and its poorly worded-- but frankly you can read the RAW to mean every unit with a model within d6" of the slain pyro suffers wounds equal to the number of all models in the blast radius. Technically, grammatically, both readings would be correct, so I would probably opt for the least ludicrous... but yes-- talk about an awful sentence.

And as for the author? I think they just didn't want Cruddace getting violenced randomly while walking down the street....
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 12:56

god help him if i saw him after he nerfed my Empire book. it went from a versatile army to a mono-build book in one fell swoop. TK players are after his guts too.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 15:25

I play Empire as well. Refuse the mono-build. Just don't win as often...

Another note on the tyranids.... Now that the tervigon isn't what it used to be, I'm still seeing a lot of 30 termagaunt, 1 tervigon troops choices in games 1500+. Maybe it's just our access to poison, but what the heck guys? If this is an objective game, you're already playing for a draw, because the DE are not losing that one.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 16:27

Roc wrote:
Another note on the tyranids.... Now that the tervigon isn't what it used to be, I'm still seeing a lot of 30 termagaunt, 1 tervigon troops choices in games 1500+. Maybe it's just our access to poison, but what the heck guys? If this is an objective game, you're already playing for a draw, because the DE are not losing that one.

Thing is, it's not like nid players have the best choice with regard to troops:

Genestealers - Their central issue wasn't fixed, they still can't assault after outflanking and broodlords got more expensive. Still, for a mere 40pts you can now upgrade one unit to by Ymgarl genestealers... just without the rule that made Ymgarl genestealers good. Anyone want to claim that stealer-shock lists are back in business? Now is the time...

Termagaunts - Base cost got cheaper, but upgrades are now more expensive and the Tervigon harms them rather than supporting them.

Tervigon - A squashed pile of cartilage under the nerf-hammer, but still probably the most durable troop choice - and synapse too.

Warriors - Well, as long as you don't face Tau, IG, Vindicators, Defilers, Soul Grinders etc., then you don't have to worry about S8 pie plates IDing them. Instead, you can just worry about the fact that they're crap against small-arms fire, have pathetic shooting and mediocre combat abilities. Still, they're synapse - so at least you don't have to worry that they'll abandon an objective to chase a car or something.

Hormogants - Yeah, because T3 6+ save combat units are king in 6th. Also, I look forward to someone trying to hold an objective with these guys - especially when their synapse is dead.

Rippers - Remember how amazing these non-scoring troops that kill themselves were? Well, obviously they were too strong, because they got a 30% price increase. Don't worry though - now they only kill themselves some of the time.

Well, not to worry, at least nids can use allies to make use of another race's much better troop choice.

Oh..

Wait...

No...
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 16:39

Honestly, all this reflects is "modern" doom and gloom thinking about tyranid troops choices and synapse, in my opinion. People keep complaining about them, but frankly, they're essentially what I remember from playing Tyranids in 2e and 3e.

They suck, but guess what? you get a lot of them. And they're there for ablative shielding. You know best part about the rippers? The give cover to termagaunts. Who can cover hormies and stealers, who can cover warriors... oh, and now they have cheap shroud bubbles.

give me 40 termagaunts, 20 hormagaunts, 9 rippers, 6 warriors, and a shrouding pair, and i'll challenge you to take out my troops and ignore everything else-- because that set up is going to take a lot of doing to wipe off the board-- or at least a lot more doing than 30 termas and a tervigon. Sure, that's 500 points of troops, but 1/3 of your army as troops choices isn't bad.

Sure, you run into trouble against s.8 ignores cover pie plates, but we don't see those that often here, and the tyranids do have ways of dealing with vehicles (which don't even axe the cover saves completely-- if at all when you space correctly).

I'm not saying they are particularly fearsome or devastating, or will be the new top tournament players. I'm just saying they can do better than 30 gribblies and one MC that hurts those gribblies when it dies in 1500+ point games.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 16:46

Roc wrote:
give me 40 termagaunts, 20 hormagaunts, 9 rippers, 6 warriors, and a shrouding pair, and i'll challenge you to take out my troops and ignore everything else-- because that set up is going to take a lot of doing to wipe off the board-- or at least a lot more doing than 30 termas and a tervigon. Sure, that's 500 points of troops, but 1/3 of your army as troops choices isn't bad.

Actually, with the above choices, all I need to do is take out your warriors and suddenly you've lost control of your list.

Your rippers can't score and are wasted points. They can spend the game killing themselves.

Hormogants can be led out of cover (I believe - unless they kill themselves too).

Finally, gaunts can lurk in their cover doing nothing until I decide to kill them and/or make them fall back.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 16:50

I was just listing troops choices. If you're a bug player and you're not layering synapse, you are doing something wrong. It is a "handicap" I dealt with constantly without a problem, and the new book has even more synapse crutches than we had-- including 18" synapse powers, a synapse unit in every FoC slot, more synapse MCs...

EDIT: Also, when I was a young spawnling, we had to consume noxious gas giants all day every day, and had to march uphill both ways to do it!   Very Happy 

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 17:18

Roc wrote:
I was just listing troops choices. If you're a bug player and you're not layering synapse, you are doing something wrong.

Oh, I appreciate that.

The point I was making was that Tyranids seem very easy to take down systematically.

Depending on how your force is deployed, I might well be able to take down your synapse on one flank, for example. Now, maybe there are only a couple of units that end up out of syanpse range because of that, but that's still 2 extra units I don't need to worry about - and which might even start killing themselves as a result.

[quote="Roc"It is a "handicap" I dealt with constantly without a problem, and the new book has even more synapse crutches than we had-- including 18" synapse powers, a synapse unit in every FoC slot, more synapse MCs...[/quote]

I think "crutch" is the operative word...  Wink 

Also, what are the 'extra' synapse creatures that we didn't have before?

In any case, I'm not sure how useful the +6" synapse range abilities actually are. Really, I'd describe them as helping an opponent with his target priority.  tongue 

And, using psychic powers just to make your army behave itself is fine by me. If you were using something like Iron Arm to make your synpase durable, then that might be a worry. But, overcoming your in-built handicap... that doesn't worry me much.

As a question, with regard to synapse now being a handicap, what do you feel you're getting from it? If you see what I mean. Basically, what really strong stuff in the nid codex do you feel needs to be balanced by synapse?

Roc wrote:

EDIT: Also, when I was a young spawnling, we had to consume noxious gas giants all day every day, and had to march uphill both ways to do it!                                              Very Happy

 lol! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 17:35

The Shredder wrote:
...what are the 'extra' synapse creatures that we didn't have before?

Warriors with wings/Shrikes, Trygon Primes, and Tervigons off the top of my head.

The Shredder wrote:
As a question, with regard to synapse now being a handicap, what do you feel you're getting from it? If you see what I mean. Basically, what really strong stuff in the nid codex do you feel needs to be balanced by synapse?

I don't think synapse is a handicap. People just see it that way now because of the awesomeness it brought them for the last few editions and that anti-ID crap (I'm sorry, I don't care what sentience you are linked to, being crushed by a titan-foot is still going to kill you).

Synapse provides fearless, the ability to regroup with 1 model left out of a 30-man unit, and some fun tricks with go to ground as I understand it. The downside is that they don't always behave when outside of it. I've thought synapse was overpowered for a good long time now, and this brings it back to where it should be.

Also, it's only certain groups that are really affected by it. Namely low LD, unengaged models not near an enemy. And as for the IB charts? 50% chance of crap, 33% chance of 'meh', and 17% of 'cool'-- not bad. Maybe switching the 'meh' / crap numbers would be better, but the point remains-- just keep the gribblies in synapse.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 17:57

Roc wrote:

Warriors with wings/Shrikes, Trygon Primes, and Tervigons off the top of my head.

 Question 

But, all of those were in the last codex...?
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 19:26

I was referring to the time since synapse was last like this (you know... when I was playing), where it provided fearless and some minor morale boosts, but your army fell apart without them. 2nd edition, 3rd edition... hence the old man wise crack.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 19:28

Roc wrote:
I was referring to the time since synapse was last like this (you know... when I was playing), where it provided fearless and some minor morale boosts, but your army fell apart without them. 2nd edition, 3rd edition... hence the old man wise crack.

Ah, I see.

I fear I've only played nids since 4th edition, so I have little idea what they were like before that.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sat Jan 18 2014, 19:52

Play a few games with/against the current dex and you'll get the idea. (Minus the Shrikes, Trygon Primes, and Tervigons.)
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sun Jan 19 2014, 10:04

I came across something interesting today. Saw it on The Warhammer Forum but have linked to the original article.

http://thehammerofwrath.blogspot.se/2014/01/review-tyranid-codex-6th-edition.html


Quote :
CHAPTER HOUSE BLUES
It's no secret that GW and Chapter House Studios have been embroiled in a protracted legal battle over products offered by CHS. Those unfamiliar with the case should know that CHS created resin models for units that GW hadn't bothered to create (like the essential Mycetic Spore). GW sued them, and LOST. By verdict, CHS could continue to create and sell those units.

In a fit of insane corporate short-sightedness, instead of creating official models for those units (that everyone would have bought), GW instead reworked the entire army, removing the units CHS made models for. By removing the mycetic spore, ymgarl genestealers, parasite of mortex, and the doom of malan'tai, GW gave a huge "frak YOU" to chapter house - and in turn - their loyal player base.

[UPDATE]
Upon further reading, I've learned that part of the court's decision in the case disallows GW from making models for units that Chapter House Studios created. So GW was legally UNABLE to create the units we wanted. Unfortunate for everyone, as GW can't make money providing much desired models, player's can't have the units they wanted, and CHS doesn't make any money with their ugly resin designs because the units were removed from the rules.

This is obviously a legal decision, and I can't imagine the design team was too happy about it. They were certainly deep into the design of the document, and were told to remove the units in question, mid process. I don't envy them.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sun Jan 19 2014, 10:14

The lesson that GW has hopefully learned from this is that if they put a unit in a codex then they should release a model for that unit. Because if they don't, someone else will.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sun Jan 19 2014, 11:20

gods thats a mess what a huge shame
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sun Jan 19 2014, 11:39

Do i get that straight, GW got disallowed to create models for units from their own codex that CHS already made?
Well that backfired, guess that's what you get for being too sue happy.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Sun Jan 19 2014, 12:03

I believe it's not based on the names of the models of anything, but the style.
Because CHS made a Spore Mine-like unit, if GW then make a model that resembles it in any way it leaves them open to being sued by CHS for copying their model.
Which is what GW's case against CHS was about in the first place, CHS making products that match GW's.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 27 2014, 09:18

^ is some funny stuff.
Quick aside to the actual topic of the thread:
Played my first Dark Eldar match vs Tyranids today, and it was the 'Nid player's first match with the new Codex and first match vs DE. We're involved in a Planetary Empires Campaign with some home-brew rules. We both got the opportunity to tailor most of our lists against one another.
Due to the home-brew, and me being the attacking force vs his defensive army, he was able to field 2030pts of new Bugs.
My attacking list was only 1543pts.

I had first turn, luckily rolled Hammer & Anvil deployment. Generally knowing what I was up against I brought a pile of 36" poison, a couple raiders and a Razorwing.
He brought 6 MCs, three of which were flying, four of which were synapse; ~70 infantry models (of which his own tervigon's explosion killed 22), gants and gargoyles; 3x zoans, 3x hive guard.
He conceded bottom of 5, with only a Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon, desiccator larvae, electroshock grubs) and 3 Hive Guard left alive.
Even with a 500pt advantage, all he'd managed to kill of mine was a single Venom and 3 wyches. I won Relic 5-0.

Poison is definitely the solution, even against the FMCs. By using the "slicing the pie" technique of only engaging part of their army at a time I had no trouble pounding his monsters into mulch. The Razorwing helped vs horde and FMCs, though hive crone's haywire "missiles" that I believe are effectively twin-linked we should be leery of.

He definitely had some trouble adapting to the new codex, playing an unfamiliar list, so that's something we can capitalize on (learning the codex as they do). What little of the new instinctive behaviour we experienced didn't bother him at all (he rolled mostly on the Hunt, gaining preferred enemy for a turn).

Other thing I noticed was the serious issue with the wording in the rulebook. I mean, did they even PRETEND to edit it?!
All the stuff mentioned above, plus the Trygon Prime's subterranean assault rule says if it scatters on top of enemy models or impassable when Deep Striking it moves to 1" away, but it doesn't say it gets special treatment if it scatters to within 1" of enemy models. We agreed it could move to 1", but RAW it suffers mishap. Only half a guidance system? Yeesh.

Thoughts as a whole on the new Tyranid Codex are; for people used to 5E codex, it's trouble. For new players, I'm sure it's useable as they don't have an old mindset to change and adapt.
For us, we have nothing new to worry about, and our target priority is more clearly defined than ever.

GLHF, brothers.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 27 2014, 09:48

Laughingcarp wrote:
hive crone's haywire "missiles" that I believe are effectively twin-linked we should be leery of.

Only against Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures

Quote :
I mean, did they even PRETEND to edit it?!

All the stuff mentioned above, plus the Trygon Prime's subterranean assault rule says if it scatters on top of enemy models or impassable when Deep Striking it moves to 1" away, but it doesn't say it gets special treatment if it scatters to within 1" of enemy models. We agreed it could move to 1", but RAW it suffers mishap. Only half a guidance system? Yeesh.

Editor is a purely ceremonial role at Games Workshop.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 27 2014, 11:59

Count Adhemar wrote:
Editor is a purely ceremonial role at Games Workshop.

 lol! 
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 27 2014, 21:02

Hey guys. I just played a 2vs2 game against nids. My DE and Tau against 2 Nids. We lost, grossly. I have to say that the board was pretty crowded and mission was Relic, which is just about the worst thing possible, but I wanted to point out the things that were trouble. Biovores. I thought it will be a friendly game, but it wasn't. I brought Beastmasters. 5 Khym, 6 RWF. They suffered badly as did my pal's Fire Warriors under the barrage of 2x3 biovores. However just dont take beastmasters and you will be fine. :-D.

But... Venomthropes... first thing you need to kill. Clever nid player will use them to give 2+ cover to everything he has. Funnily enough my CC Archon (Agoni) and Talos was working wonderfully against Nids. Also my Bike Champion with Agoniser.

Incubi, Beasts, Hellions... IMHO unusable against Nids. Wyches will die under the overwhelming number of (usually poisoned - rerolling) hits. Talos is great against non-poison nids.

You will be tempted to take Dissies. I would not recommend it. Lances, Agonisers, Poison are your best pals.

So... you will need 36 poison shots for 1 Venomthorpe with 2+ cover... 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2 unsaved. I would suggest reading Thor665's guide on targeting priority. It is especially true for the new nids.

Psykers - the FNP they have is ugly, coz it targets the psyker AND another unit. Warp Blast is the same, other powers are mostly irrelevant as we are usually in transports.

Powerbuilds... I can see Aegis, Venomthrope, 3x Mawloc, 2x Flyrant and similar builds being very good. However again as we are mostly onboard, it does not pose any serious threat to us. Expect to see a Tervigon in every build. Its just too good to leave at home. In my game it just spawned an unit of gaunts into the chapel that held the relic even though it was blocking LOS. I know, I know, not very fair, but the rules do not prevent it.

As for our listbuilding... Moar Poison, gief more Agonis... 3x3 Bikes with champ and Agoni and Blaster will kill a MC per turn (maybe with some other poison support). High Ini and Assault Blasters and splinter rifles will make sure that the S6 monster never strikes back. Although... watch for those Biovore Barrages.

Going for another game tomorrow with a better build. Still not comp though and without a Flyer. I will wait until the nids get a flyer themselves before fielding mine. :-)
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