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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 13 2014, 13:48

From what I've seen of the new Tyranids, it looks like they're being pushed more toward being a horde than they were before. Some monsters have been nerfed, but a few things have become cheaper, meaning there's more of them. Monsters I love to rip through, but I always seem to have trouble with hordes.


Edit: Just started watching that bat-rep, and did I miss something? The appear to have started with their flyers on the board, deployed with the rest of their armies. The guys Crone died it turn one shooting.....that shouldn't have been possible. It is a flyer, right?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 13 2014, 14:05

What I don't understand is why these changes were made. I can usually find a business case where GW has a new model out and wants to sell loads so they make the rules for it completely OP. In this case the new models seem to be nothing particularly special and I can't see Exocrines and Harpys flying off the shelves that quickly.

Alternatively I can see where the previous edition had favoured certain units and GW knows they won't sell anymore of them so they nerf those units and buff other units that weren't selling well. Tervigons would be the obvious candidate for the nerfstick here as pretty much every man and his dog had some of these in their Nid armies and they certainly got hit hard with the nerfbat but I'm struggling to see the buffs to other units to sell more of those models. Are GW really relying purely on increased Carnifex sales? You never saw Warriors or Pyrovores in Nid armies yet they've been nerfed too.

Also, if there was ever an army that cried out for a HUGE monster kit then surely Nids is the one? Yet there's nothing along the lines of a Riptide or Wraithknight.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 13 2014, 16:56

Have the codex, been reading through it for the last couple of days, trying to find a build I like.. There are some nice fluffy lists that won't be remotely tournament competitive. One of the most interesting facets for me is the amount of Pinning weapons Nids can spam. I think the trick to the codex will be a combination of foot hordes to soak fire and push threats, and models that mess with enemy shooting and leadership. Or just the usual FMCs.. but that's getting a bit dull now. All in all it's a difficult book to build with. Really feels like it's designed to only work above 2k points. Getting a 1000 point army or even a 1500 makes you feel like you're either shoehorned into a mono-build, or seriously lacking on some major area.

As for the DE perspective on all of this.. well, we have no psykers, so shadow in the warp is irrelevant. And we're almost always meched up, so pinning is less of an issue. Splinter cannons will eventually deal with FMCs as always. And we're a hell of a lot faster, so it'll be unbelievably difficult for a nid player to choose their melees effectively. Target priority will probably be Hive Tyrant/Exocrine/Hive Guard - any other synapse - anything else.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 13 2014, 17:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
What I don't understand is why these changes were made. I can usually find a business case where GW has a new model out and wants to sell loads so they make the rules for it completely OP. In this case the new models seem to be nothing particularly special and I can't see Exocrines and Harpys flying off the shelves that quickly.

I thought that, these new releases don't seem great. My only thought was that GW are aiming for cheaper (points-wise) swarms, hoping to get more sales on Hormas and Termas. They're all 1 point cheaper now, so:

30 hormas used to be 180, now they're 150, equivalent to 6 more hormas.
30 terms used to be 150, now they're 120, so 7.5 more termas for the same price.

That said, even that's not a huge amount...
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Mon Jan 13 2014, 18:16

I haven't gotten through the whole book, but right off the top my thought was, did Tyranids just become worse at close combat? No rerolls on Scything Talons, and bones swords no longer ignore armor, they're AP3. Everything else from a my perspective as a dark eldar player looks the same. We might see more flyers, but most of us have at least 10 splinter cannon in our list.

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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 06:12

So, is it just me or does this cause anybody else to worry about what those jack-holes will do with our Codex, bye Duke and Baron... Maybe even bye Webway portal seeing as how it's barely mentioned in the new Eldar codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 14:38

anyone expecting a weapon to purely ignore armor saves to stay around in 6th edition is kidding themselves....maybe should have been AP2 but hey at least its AP3

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 17:10

i dont think they're hurting for AP2 close combat attacks tbh, they've got enough MC's on the board. smash means they're AP2 anyway without boneswords.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 18:40

@murdok actually it has made me think of what they might do to our new Dex. They may do something terrible like take away poison. And the voidraven might go away, which I wouldn't mind if they gave us a better flyer.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 19:53

@csjarrat wrote:
i dont think they're hurting for AP2 close combat attacks tbh, they've got enough MC's on the board. smash means they're AP2 anyway without boneswords.
exactly...idk how I forgot to mention that!

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 20:28

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
I haven't gotten through the whole book, but right off the top my thought was, did Tyranids just become worse at close combat? No rerolls on Scything Talons, and bones swords no longer ignore armor, they're AP3. Everything else from a my perspective as a dark eldar player looks the same. We might see more flyers, but most of us have at least 10 splinter cannon in our list.

Basically, yeah - tyranids got a lot worse at CC.

Honestly, I'm not even sure that they're better at shooting - especially with the nerfs to Hive Guard and Zoanthropes.

@ligolski wrote:
anyone expecting a weapon to purely ignore armor saves to stay around in 6th edition is kidding themselves....maybe should have been AP2 but hey at least its AP3

I think you're forgetting several things:

1) Nids are were a close combat army, and one which tended to rely on decent initiative for it's non-MCs in combat. So, having an AP2 weapon that strikes at I - even if it's expensive or only available as a relic - would have made a lot of sense.

2) Other armies who had AP2 weapons can still fall back on power axes and (in many cases) power fists for AP2 attacks on characters and sergeants. nids have no such weapons available.

3) They have MCs, but that just means the units that relied on boneswords for AP2 in 5th - i.e. Warriors and the Prime - have been given an extra nerf.

4) Considering that above were bad and mediocre (respectively) prior to the new codex, AND that they each received extra nerfs (both lost rerolls, warriors lost spore deployment, prime got 50% cost rise and upgrades are now much more expensive), further weakening them with nerfs to their weapons seems like a terrible idea.

Really, all that this has achieved is make those units so terrible as to be almost unusable in 6th.


Also, I feel I should point out that nids have one 2+ save in their entire book. So, it's not like their even getting some decent defensive benefits as a result of most power weapons being AP3.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 21:40

I think based on the changes in 6th edition my comment is entirely justified. I realize they are/were a CC army, but that doesn't mean they should get some all powerful set of CC weapons that just purely ignore saves....that isn't kosher with 6th edition. That's what all power weapons did last edition...and general power weapons moved to AP3, thus I would expect something akin to that to do the same thing. Sure other armies get axes and what not but they go at I1...nids have a ton of MC choices and they all hack at Ap2 at initiative.

The key to the dex is to forget 5th edition...this isn't 5th edition, its 6th edition. You have to reassess how you play nids altogether. I should also note that we barely have a 2+ save...shadowfield, that's it, albeit is a powerful 2++ but you can only have so many and it only lasts so long.

Personally I think that the last thing someone should gripe with in the new nids dex is a boneswords ignore all armor saves change to AP3. There are other issues with the new dex for sure...but I keep seeing that one enumerated and I just have to chuckle.

Just my 2 cents though.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 23:34

@ligolski wrote:
I think based on the changes in 6th edition my comment is entirely justified. I realize they are/were a CC army, but that doesn't mean they should get some all powerful set of CC weapons that just purely ignore saves....that isn't kosher with 6th edition.

Why? Why does every army need to conform to the same standards?

@ligolski wrote:
That's what all power weapons did last edition...and general power weapons moved to AP3, thus I would expect something akin to that to do the same thing. Sure other armies get axes and what not but they go at I1...nids have a ton of MC choices and they all hack at Ap2 at initiative.

Except you've missed the point.

Take space marines - you can buy the captain and give him a weapon that's AP3 (or worse), but which strikes at initiative. or, you can give him a power axe/fist and have him strike at higher strength at AP2.

With tyranids, if you want AP2, you have to take an entirely different HQ choice.

@ligolski wrote:
The key to the dex is to forget 5th edition...this isn't 5th edition, its 6th edition. You have to reassess how you play nids altogether.

Why do you assume that I'm stuck in 5th?

Is "it's 6th edition" now an excuse for GW to release terrible rules?

See, you also have to consider the changes in the context of the models they affect. Look at other races' HQ choices - most of them got about 40pts knocked off their 5th edition costs. So, even if their weapon selections are weaker, they make up for it by being cheaper.

Compare that to the tyranid prime - not only did he get weaker in combat (losing both rerolls from scything talons, and the ability to combine weapons), but his cost increased by over 50%. And, on top of that, boneswords are no longer AP2 and have a worse ID effect. Why even bother keeping it in the codex if you're going to make it so overpriced as to be worthless "because it's 6th edition"?

@ligolski wrote:
I should also note that we barely have a 2+ save...shadowfield, that's it, albeit is a powerful 2++ but you can only have so many and it only lasts so long.

That's true, but we're not a 6th edition codex.  tongue 

@ligolski wrote:
Personally I think that the last thing someone should gripe with in the new nids dex is a boneswords ignore all armor saves change to AP3.

Oh, granted, the new dex seems to have a lot of other issues - many of them more pressing. Nevertheless, it's still an example of bad design - making weapons AP3 "because 6th edition, lol" with no thought to whether that change is necessary or warranted, or how it will affect the internal balance of the codex.

*Shrugs* I'm probably just just bitter about this subject because the Prime was my favourite addition in the last book. I was hoping that a new book might make him (and warriors) more viable in 6th edition - rather than less.  scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Tue Jan 14 2014, 23:52

Know what I expect from this? Dataslates. Dataslates with "Hive Fleet Variants" that are pretty much required to have a decent army.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 01:14

I'm definitely not going to write the tyranids off any time soon. They've been brought back into line with 6th edition, so instinctive behavior is actually a bad thing again and not just giving you more attacks on the charge (ex: rage), you have to pay for ap2 on non-MCs with unwieldy (crushing claws are just power axes by a different name), and you have to roll for specific powers (similar to the chaos psychic power tables that require at least a lvl2 before you get access to rulebook powers). New codices are redesigns of how an army works, not blatant nerfs or buffs. What they definitely got was the ability to horde it up good and proper, and can drop str 9, 6 and 4 shooting likes its going out of style. I haven't looked at their book in a while, but I'm pretty sure you can bring 9 carnifexes and 90 hormagaunts to an 1850 game pretty comfortably. I don't know if you'd want to, but you can.

Killing their synapse creatures shouldn't be very difficult, I'm more concerned with the hordes. If one synapse monster stays alive and that blob gets ahold of a dark eldar army, its going to be in a pretty tight spot, literally. There's a potential for a lot of tyranic mass on a 6' x 4' table. Or they could be really cheeky and bring Old One Eye and lots of cheaper synapse like warriors, shrikes, and zoans.

I'm not really getting behind the excitement of the crone or harpy. I just feel that if you don't bring at least a couple any character with decent BS is going to knock one out of the sky every turn with a quad gun. Its got the shots, the str, and the AP to do it pretty easily. Not a guarantee, but it will definitely happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 02:35

@The Shredder wrote:
@ligolski wrote:
I think based on the changes in 6th edition my comment is entirely justified. I realize they are/were a CC army, but that doesn't mean they should get some all powerful set of CC weapons that just purely ignore saves....that isn't kosher with 6th edition.

Why? Why does every army need to conform to the same standards?

@ligolski wrote:
That's what all power weapons did last edition...and general power weapons moved to AP3, thus I would expect something akin to that to do the same thing. Sure other armies get axes and what not but they go at I1...nids have a ton of MC choices and they all hack at Ap2 at initiative.

Except you've missed the point.

Take space marines - you can buy the captain and give him a weapon that's AP3 (or worse), but which strikes at initiative. or, you can give him a power axe/fist and have him strike at higher strength at AP2.

With tyranids, if you want AP2, you have to take an entirely different HQ choice.

@ligolski wrote:
The key to the dex is to forget 5th edition...this isn't 5th edition, its 6th edition. You have to reassess how you play nids altogether.

Why do you assume that I'm stuck in 5th?

Is "it's 6th edition" now an excuse for GW to release terrible rules?

See, you also have to consider the changes in the context of the models they affect. Look at other races' HQ choices - most of them got about 40pts knocked off their 5th edition costs. So, even if their weapon selections are weaker, they make up for it by being cheaper.

Compare that to the tyranid prime - not only did he get weaker in combat (losing both rerolls from scything talons, and the ability to combine weapons), but his cost increased by over 50%. And, on top of that, boneswords are no longer AP2 and have a worse ID effect. Why even bother keeping it in the codex if you're going to make it so overpriced as to be worthless "because it's 6th edition"?

@ligolski wrote:
I should also note that we barely have a 2+ save...shadowfield, that's it, albeit is a powerful 2++ but you can only have so many and it only lasts so long.

That's true, but we're not a 6th edition codex.  tongue 

@ligolski wrote:
Personally I think that the last thing someone should gripe with in the new nids dex is a boneswords ignore all armor saves change to AP3.

Oh, granted, the new dex seems to have a lot of other issues - many of them more pressing. Nevertheless, it's still an example of bad design - making weapons AP3 "because 6th edition, lol" with no thought to whether that change is necessary or warranted, or how it will affect the internal balance of the codex.

*Shrugs* I'm probably just  just bitter about this subject because the Prime was my favourite addition in the last book. I was hoping that a new book might make him (and warriors) more viable in 6th edition - rather than less.  scratch

I agree that context is important for the overall army balance. I would argue that with the abundance of AP2 available that AP3 is reasonable, but I'm not a Nids player so I can't be entirely sure of the context part myself. This also of course assumes that those AP2 units are actually good...now that may not be case at all and we know it...however GW obviously seems to think so w/e reason (ie: they have no clue lol). I also wasn't trying to state that you were stuck in 5th, just that in general some of the griping is people wishing for 5th edition with more goodies...obviously GW decided to go some weird route, one that none of us really understand! We just need to decipher what they heck they laid in that dex...and I'll leave that you nid players! GW generally does some freaking weird things these days, just gotta figure out how to work with them...and I pray that DE don't hit very hard like nids do with such weird changes.

I honestly hope Nids can figure some good builds out because I'd love to see something challenge Tau and Eldar well.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 14:53

I came across one scary weapon in the new 'nid codex: Impaler cannons. They're S8 AP4 weapons that ignore cover AND don't need line of sight. My last game against the new codex saw me lose a Raider and two Venoms to this damned thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 15:00

24" range. Keep away from them!

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 15:07

The board I was playing on had quite a bit of terrain forcing me to get close, unfortunately. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 15:11

@Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
I came across one scary weapon in the new 'nid codex: Impaler cannons. They're S8 AP4 weapons that ignore cover AND don't need line of sight. My last game against the new codex saw me lose a Raider and two Venoms to this damned thing.

If you're facing nids regularly, Night Shields might be a useful investment on your vehicles. With just 18" range, hive guard may be forced to break cover in order to shoot you. And, with pre-measuring, you can ensure that you don't goo to near any LoS-blocking cover.

Also, bear in mind that they're T6, but just 2 wounds apiece and only a 4+ save - so it won't take much poison shooting to cripple a squad.

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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 16:05

A lot of that was my fault (I hadn't ' tread through the codex at that point) so I wasn't prepared for homing middles to pop up from behind a wall and blow up three vehicles.

Once that happened, though, I was able to deep strike a dozen Hellions in and blast them away. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 21:35

To be honest, I don't think anything at all in the new 'Nid codex is scarier than in the previous codex. With the removal of mycetic spores (GW vs Chapterhouse fail) our movement way surpasses anything Tyranids can throw at us. And poison and darklight remain the bane of everything in the 'Nid codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Wed Jan 15 2014, 23:13

I'll have a game against the new nids soon, I'll tell you all how it goes, but from what I've read things don't look all that scary as long as you have poison and can keep them away. We're going to see less Tervigons, so Gaunts will mostly have to be paid for, and the other MCs are more or less the same. With a Toughness value and a measy 4+ save the crone doesn't look too scary either. So overall, one of the easier matchups for us.

@ mandor: would you be so kind to explain that GW vs chapterhouse thing and how that has to do with the spore being gone? I might have missed something on that behalf.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Thu Jan 16 2014, 07:39

Charterhouse started making models for units that gw made rules for but no official model. Gw got all pissy. About it, took them to court and it didn't go very well. Now instead of making new models, they are just getting rid of rules!!
Slow hand clap for gw
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PostSubject: Re: Response to the Tyranid update   Thu Jan 16 2014, 08:41

As csjarrat said, the only, yes only reason the Mycetic Spore is not in the Tyranid codex is because GW failed to make a model for the codex unit. Chapterhouse beat them to it and made a model for the spore first. GW took them court with the argument that only they are allowed to make models for units in their codices. They (mostly) lost that case and as a result, instead of making a proper model, they removed it from the codex altogether. And they extended that "courtesy" to the Doom of Malantai and Parasite of Mortrex.

Truly a gigantic slap in the face of your customers and fans. But this is GW for you.
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