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 GW releases it, Players police it

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 11:16

Quote :
I was hoping that this thread would eventually turn to solutions and tweaks to our strategies rather than a WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOOOMED.

The solutions are obvious. Turbo-boost really close to enemy forces, so that enemy cant use its D-weapons. Cause you cant place a Blast Marker touching your own models. They also scatter.

Get Flyers, D-weapons cant hit em also.

Shoot the bloody lances, heatlances, blasters...i think we are more then capable of sending some Baneblade to the Machine God in a space of 1-2 turns.

If you go on that tourney with Super Heavies, get this void field generator. Its probably good enough thing regardless, adding to our first turn survivability.

Get Baron or Vect. Or both.
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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 11:45

But for those of us that get to fit in one or two games a month between work, wife, kids, Scouts, sleep etc, the prospect of that one game being dull and unfair just so that we can learn that going up against something big and horrible is, er, dull and unfair, does not seem like a great prospect.

What am I going to do? Not play them, and start discussion threads about how to do so in a friendly manner ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 14:17

Set up games with friends before time.

"Hey bud, want play a 2k game next friday?"

"Sure. Why type of game flyers, super heavies, d-weapons?"

"Lets just do flyers, no d-weapons this time."

Seriously its that simple. For those familiar with roleplaying.... just treat it like roleplaying night. You agree on what type of game you want to play, set up a cool scenario and play.

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Last edited by Cavalier on Sun Dec 15 2013, 14:28; edited 2 times in total
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 14:25

Actually, I think Dark Eldar are one of the armies least affected by the new super-heavies. Those couple of strength D blasts really don't matter much in general. We fold just as easy to any weapon with decent strength or number of shots.

The problem with D-weapons and Titans is that they are just boring. Point, shoot, remove everything under the blast marker and repeat until your opponent's army is gone. And though it's not impossible, it's unlikely you'll ever destroy that Titan. Just throw fun and tactics out of the window. IMO, that's fine for Apoc games, as these games are about throwing massive armies against each other and removing those armies as fast as possible from the table. But in regular 40k? Just lame.
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 14:32

@ cavalier: Yes...yes it is...

I think it is that simple in the LGS, too. If you say...I don't have any superheavies, mind playing without...they will either say...

1) yeah, cool: In this case, yeah, cool.
2) Nah, I am really wanting to try this puppy out, so mind if I play someone else: No harm, can't blame them and its cool, decide to let them play you or let them play someone else.
3) I only have enough models with me to use the heavy: Then just like #2
4) GW says it's official so I'm gonna use it: Nicely say to them okay, I am sure there is someone here who can give you a proper challenge and be thankful he didn't answer #1 because that is the guy we talk about in all the other threads that we hate playing Wink

As for how to deal with them...do you think this may make the dukes deepstrike everything rule more useful?

I would think that for us we spread out, get close and use all our AT tools to take them out. We are used to doing this anyway. And staying out of LOS is natural to us.

Necrons will do the same...mass gauss fire and hope for 6s.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 14:37

@Tengu wrote:
I always thought that if we DE ever even got sight of a titan, we were to hightail it back to Commoragh and find an easier target???
And this is one of the reasons that super-heavies don't belong in regular 40k. Same goes for AV15 forts. Sure, you can destroy them. But they don't belong in this game. Just make them an expansion and be done with it.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 15:00

@Nappen wrote:
As for how to deal with them...do you think this may make the dukes deepstrike everything rule more useful?

I would think that for us we spread out, get close and use all our AT tools to take them out. We are used to doing this anyway. And staying out of LOS is natural to us.

Necrons will do the same...mass gauss fire and hope for 6s.

Ok, let's say I field this.

LoW: Eldar Revenant Titan
HQ: Autarch with Jetbike, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Banshee Mask and Mantle of the Laughing God
TRP: 10 Guardian Defenders with Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Lasers, Holo-fields
TRP: 10 Guardian Defenders with Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Lasers, Holo-fields
TRP: 3 Windrider Jetbikes (kept in reserves)
TRP: 3 Windrider Jetbikes (kept in reserves)
FA: 7 Warp Spiders
HS: Night Spinner
Total: 1850 pts

Your army:
Dark Eldar only. You are not allowed to take a Lord of War yourself. You are allowed to tailor your list to the above a bit, but please make it somewhat TAC viable. You have first turn. Counter above force.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 15:34

I was about to make a list then it dawned on me. A model that can move 36" and shoot 60" out makes our speed and maneuverability look like poo. Haywire wyches will never catch him. If the player is good at maneuvering he can troll our ravagers. The voidraven might be the most effective tool we have for a Titan, unfortunately, the rest of the army can shoot it down with ease.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 15:54

Let me start by saying that I have agreed from the beginning that this should be an expansion and I don't play APOC and other than for fun don't plan on playing ESC. I was wanting a titan because I wanted to build and paint, but don't really plan on it now-my little protest.

But an all comer's list that has some chance here-but yes, explicative is right on the eldar titan's prowess.

Duke Sclissus
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
EL: 4 trueborn, blasters in a venom dual SC
EL: 4 trueborn, blasters in a venom dual SC
FA: 5 Scourges with HWB X 2
FA: 6 Reavers with HL X 2
FA: 6 Reavers with HL X 2
HS: Ravager
HS: Ravager
HS: Razorwing or bomber with FF
1843 points

Many ways you could run this list between reserves, deepstrike and a lot depends on the terrain. An open field, any army against the eldar list above is toast. And this eldar list is probably the most extreme example.

You could sub the Duke for an archon or haemonculs and put FF on the vehicles, but I prefer the duke and his buffs.

The eldar titan is far and away the worst titan to go against for the points. And Tau are still OP.

I just wish they would throw us a bone and give us some dataslates for formations.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 15:58

I don't think the list above would have an easy time shooting down a single Voidraven especially if equipped with FF/NF and would sore pressed against 2 of them. The Void Raven is going to be a great choice for putting pressure on super heavies. Thats a lot of 5's and 6's for the scatter lasers, and don't forget the flickerfield saves. Needing 6's to hit an AV 11 target with a decent invul save isn't easy

Also... if not having a Dark Eldar stylized superheavy is problem ally in a Farseer (or even an Autarch on a JB), 3 Guardian Jetbikes, and take an Eldar Lynx... its a single shot d-weapon gravtank. You could create a custom super-ravager,or even use the Tantalus as a counts-as.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 16:33

I am hoping for a voidraven formation Wink

I thought about two, but couldn't decide what to get rid of. You could drop a ravager and convert a squad of bikes to scourges but that still comes up short. You could pull on wych out of each squad and that would make up the difference.

Or changing a squad of wyches to 5 in a venom will free up the points for it.

Another option overall is to change out the blasterborn with three carrying two DLs which also frees up the needed amount to convert a ravager to a bomber or jet. But you do loose some of the versatility of the blaster.

Overall, I think we are going to have to really spread out and only let them take out a couple of units a turn.

Like I said, I don't play APOC. What happens to troops in a vehicle that gets hit with a D-weapon?
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 17:36

@Nappen wrote:
Let me start by saying that I have agreed from the beginning that this should be an expansion and I don't play APOC and other than for fun don't plan on playing ESC. I was wanting a titan because I wanted to build and paint, but don't really plan on it now-my little protest.

But an all comer's list that has some chance here-but yes, explicative is right on the eldar titan's prowess.

Duke Sclissus
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
TRP: 10 wyches, HWG in a Raider
EL: 4 trueborn, blasters in a venom dual SC
EL: 4 trueborn, blasters in a venom dual SC
FA: 5 Scourges with HWB X 2
FA: 6 Reavers with HL X 2
FA: 6 Reavers with HL X 2
HS: Ravager
HS: Ravager
HS: Razorwing or bomber with FF
1843 points

Many ways you could run this list between reserves, deepstrike and a lot depends on the terrain. An open field, any army against the eldar list above is toast. And this eldar list is probably the most extreme example.

You could sub the Duke for an archon or haemonculs and put FF on the vehicles, but I prefer the duke and his buffs.

The eldar titan is far and away the worst titan to go against for the points. And Tau are still OP.

I just wish they would throw us a bone and give us some dataslates for formations.
It's a decent list, but it has some problems targeting the Revenant.

The Trueborn, Wyches and Reavers will almost never be in range to actually do something to the Revenant. With it's 36" move and 60" weapons range, you will never ever catch it.  So best case scenario for you, is you manage to safely deepstrike within range of the Titan and shoot it once. You might be able to get one or two hull points off.

That leaves the Scourges, Ravagers and Bomber. The Scourges might do a single hull point of damage to the Revenant, but fold to any shooting in my army. The flyer I can hardly do anything about, but if it's targeting the Revenant, I can probably shoot it down with Warp Spiders or Wave Serpents next turn. So that leaves the Ravagers as the primary threat. They will be obliterated first turn.
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Super Dave
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 20:58

First off, let me say that I am probably one of the most staunch anti-tournament Archons here on the boards. I don't have fun at them. I don't like the aura that they have, nor the mindset one has to have to enjoy them. I don't like their focus on "meta" since to me, the only "meta" that should be ever worried about is fluff and 40k universe feel and flavor. Although, I do not fault anyone for enjoying them. If they are your thing, run free and have fun. I do take issue if tournaments and so called "competitive" play gets special treatment over casual play (and vice versa... they should ALWAYS be on equal footing).

I would like to say, though, that I do indeed know the difference between a WAAC (which stands for Win At All Costs) player and what I like to classify as a WAFP players (which stands for Winning As First Priority). WAAC players are the kind that will tailor lists; rules lawyer until their face turns blue; fudge dice rolls; play hypocritically (some rules apply to both of you and others only to one of you); and possibly even cheat; etc. A WAFP are the kind of players who switch armies to the newly (mostly web-based) classified top tier lists; only take into consideration other "competative" players when making statements/grievances/suggestions/rulings; take the allowances of rules/games as far as they can possibly stretch in order to ensure they get that powerful combo/unit/character; etc.

Thor brought up the point that this isn't a player issue, or at least caused by players. While I agree that this is technically true, I would purport that the ultra competitive WAFP style mindset that tournaments (especially the kinds with monetary prizes) instill into players blurs the lines enough to where game developers can get away with putting out shoddy products because the blame cannot be successfully pinned on them with a consensus.

To me, the best fix is this.....

@Nappen wrote:
@ cavalier: Yes...yes it is...

I think it is that simple in the LGS, too. If you say...I don't have any superheavies, mind playing without...they will either say...

1) yeah, cool: In this case, yeah, cool.
2) Nah, I am really wanting to try this puppy out, so mind if I play someone else: No harm, can't blame them and its cool, decide to let them play you or let them play someone else.
3) I only have enough models with me to use the heavy: Then just like #2
4) GW says it's official so I'm gonna use it: Nicely say to them okay, I am sure there is someone here who can give you a proper challenge and be thankful he didn't answer #1 because that is the guy we talk about in all the other threads that we hate playing Wink

To me, if you are not mature enough (notice how I didn't say "adult enough" because we all know some of at least one or two younger and/or kid players that show much more maturity than their older counterparts) to at least be able to make arrangements like these before a game, you are not mature enough to play with me. Granted, that is just my personal rule, but i feel like it is a good one.

The proposed fix of just making these new supplements into optional expansions... while seemingly good, not only WILL NOT HAPPEN, but also is redundant in some cases, and keeping them as mandatory (so to speak) supplements is required.

We already have an expansion that deals with running super heavies. It's called Apocolypse. It's already out there and it already has a niche market within a niche market. That's why GW put these out. They wanted more FW or FW-esque stuff to sell, and since not many people played Apoc, they thought why not make those things legal in any game. And so creating another dead end expansion is not in their future business plan, since their ideas seem to keep failing. They want the sales, and took the steps to get them. (which i still don't think there will be some big rush to get super heavies and their little experiment will fail ultimately, but that's another discussion)

So there is the "will not happen" and the redundancy parts. The necessary parts come in from the Codex: Inquisition and Adeptas Sororitas. These are armies 9or in the case of Inqs, parts of armies) that existed and then needed to be updated. So these had to come out in some fashion. Whether you like how they came out should be relegated to just another old vs. new codex argument and not here.

Those are just my 2 slaves worth of thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 21:46

@Super Dave wrote:
I do take issue if tournaments and so called "competitive" play gets special treatment over casual play (and vice versa... they should ALWAYS be on equal footing).
Is there an example of this happening that springs to your mind?

Because I am a big believer in the comment (paraphrasing here) that; Casual players can be happy in a competitive player's ruleset, but competitive players will dislike a casual player's ruleset.

The basic gist being - the only thing tight rules hurt is...no one. Whereas sloppy rules bother competitive players (and casual players who are trying to 'get it right') I think "but it's casual" is sloppy thinking. Most board games (outside of Chess methinks) are built for "casual play" but that doesn't mean that we expect a player picking 'red' to auto win at candy land and that if we want to keep it balanced we just all agree not to pick the red playing piece. That sounds silly, but I feel it's the defense of GW's current practices and is why I disagree with that defense. GW is making a shoddy product right now, it's annoying.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 22:12

@Thor665 wrote:
@Super Dave wrote:
I do take issue if tournaments and so called "competitive" play gets special treatment over casual play (and vice versa... they should ALWAYS be on equal footing).
Is there an example of this happening that springs to your mind?

Because I am a big believer in the comment (paraphrasing here) that; Casual players can be happy in a competitive player's ruleset, but competitive players will dislike a casual player's ruleset.

The basic gist being - the only thing tight rules hurt is...no one. Whereas sloppy rules bother competitive players (and casual players who are trying to 'get it right') I think "but it's casual" is sloppy thinking. Most board games (outside of Chess methinks) are built for "casual play" but that doesn't mean that we expect a player picking 'red' to auto win at candy land and that if we want to keep it balanced we just all agree not to pick the red playing piece. That sounds silly, but I feel it's the defense of GW's current practices and is why I disagree with that defense. GW is making a shoddy product right now, it's annoying.
Oh I completely agree that GW is putting out a shoddy product. Believe, you, me I think the string of latest GW decisions has been worse than deciding that since you don't have any sugar in your cupboard, salt will be a good substitute while baking a cake.

And to me, yes, casual players can benefit from tight rules just as much as competitive, but that is exactly my point of it needing to be equal footing. Well written rules that work in a streamlined and fully functional way competitively, thereby making casual play all the more better is not putting competitive play on the pedestal (which is the interpretation I was able to get from your point), but actually seeing that both work well.... once again that equal level.

My issue comes from how GW's idea of fixing the problem of a sinking ship with the bow going under, is to take on water in the stern to make both ends of the ship sink as fast. For every major flawed addition to the game GW has put in, there has been an even more botched attempt at fixing it. And you may think... well that's GW being crappy, and I would agree.

But I make the argument that it is the overly competative, WAFP players that are bred by the current tournament scene that are one of the (if not THE) biggest driving force behind GW decisions right now. If these types of players wouldn't go out and buy a titan all of a sudden now that they are legal in regular 40k non-Apoc tournaments just so they could get the advantage, there wouldn't be as big of concern about them actually being present at said tournaments and thereby ruining it for others. If there weren't these cash cows of "I HAVE TO WIN" players to keep buying into (both literally and figuratively) GW's bologna they are coming up with, then things would start shifting.

GW thinks, "well WAFP players are in uproar about this brokenness X over here, let's add this brokenness Y over here to counter it. Now all those same players have bought brokenness Y over here and so we need this brokenness Z on this side to counter that."

It's a vicious cycle of both ends being bunk. It started with shoddy products on the developers side, and was perpetuated by the community.

Something's gotta give, and with GW's track record of dumping on its followers, the responsibility turns to the community.

Sure, Candy Land developers are the ones who need to make sure that the red piece doesn't automatically win.... but if they refuse to do so, then it befalls those followers that love that game enough to want to fight through the devs' blunders, to make it work as it should until the developers can catch up with logical design. Sure the next edition of Candy Land, Candy Ecosystem, should be good then, but it's not, what it has is "Red automatically wins. And Green automatically wins against any Red." That's the GW mindset. And the community laps that up like its sweet ambrosia.

Both the developers' consistent lack of good products and the community's dire need to have the products even if they are bad, that are keeping this going. Only because people have invested so much time, money, passion, and love (yes love) into this game, that people are so apt to keep fighting for it.
Otherwise, the candy in Candy Land will start to rot as people leave it for the Scrabble board down the way.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Mon Dec 16 2013, 01:47

The above situation could exist, and GW sell models and make money, without making the game unbalanced.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Mon Dec 16 2013, 04:34

I'm a casual player, but I like to, and want to, win. I think you should be able to do anything within the rules, and when the rules are just flat broken, that sucks. I can legally use a rev titan now, but I don't want to because it is incredibly unfluffy. If someone else fields a rev titan, the only counter to it is another rev, its just that broken a unit.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Mon Dec 16 2013, 15:46

@Thor665 wrote:
The above situation could exist, and GW sell models and make money, without making the game unbalanced.

I agree. Not only is it possible for that situation to happen, but also it is what should ALWAYS happen.

But it doesn't, and the way I see it, it won't anytime in the foreseeable future.

That is why I am okay with the community stepping in and picking up the slack. If we don't like something, we should feel free (and even be encouraged) to work within our community to figure out a path to take.

I'm usually not the "Stick it to The Man" type of guy, but when it comes to GW and their consistent failure to create balance, I say we as a community should feel obligated to give them what-for. Sooner or later, someone's going to bend. If the community banded together on things like this, maybe this time it would be GW that did the bending. Thereby making them create said balance, that would then result in the community not having to pick up the slack.

I just see it as a failure on both parts. GW for the piddle they call a game they are putting out, and the community for turning a blind eye to it being piddle.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Thu Dec 19 2013, 05:03

After looking through stronghold and escalation I decided to pick up the stronghold book.

I was disappointed with escalation. There is no situation I can think of for DE to bring a Titan... Unless they've convinced our cousins to hit a target. It simply doesn't fit their culture. On the other hand GW could have simply included the tantalus in the book.. But they didn't. I already have the apoc book and the only difference I found was the force chart change. That want worth $50 to me.

Stronghold, on the other hand, is cool. I like that they cleaned up the building rules. Those now make a lot more sense. Also I like the idea of taking groups of fortifications. Seriously being able to drop two bastions on a table just sounds like fun. Yes, I know that's not fluffy for DE either, and I certainly wouldn't take it myself.. But when one of my opponents does ill happily shoot the buildings out from under them. Wink

As far as various events choosing to ban some of this stuff: I agree with dropping titans and changing D weapon stats. The rest of it I'm not so sure about. I think the meta will rebalance.

Also I approach balance from a slightly different perspective. The sheer number of choices any codex has means its entirely possible ( and pretty easy ) to build lists that are completely sub par; and that's ok. What I want is simply that each unit within a codex is viable. In other words we shouldn't have issues where you never see a particular model on the tables ( mandrakes... ) because the capabilities of the unit simply don't work. Also each codex should have multiple viable builds and should still have their own flavor.



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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Thu Dec 19 2013, 13:52

@clively wrote:

I was disappointed with escalation.  There is no situation I can think of for DE to bring a Titan... Unless they've convinced our cousins to hit a target.   It simply doesn't fit their culture.   On the other hand GW could have simply included the tantalus in the book.. But they didn't.  I already have the apoc book and the only difference I found was the force chart change.  That want worth $50 to me.  
Well i guess the Revenant is not fitting(look wise) but a SH or Titan is not that far from impossible. The revenant with the Flammer could be well replaced by a nice revenant/Talos convention, that would be quite fluffy. And sometimes you need big guns to crack open those big Walls, as there are plenty of slaves behinde them ;-)

@clively wrote:
As far as various events choosing to ban some of this stuff: I agree with dropping titans and changing D weapon stats.  The rest of it I'm not so sure about.  I think the meta will rebalance.
I think, the only think broken are the way the Ds work. Titans per se aren't that super good. They are priced fair. See some of the battle reports that Team0Comp did. There is one with SH with D and one with SH without Ds and the latter where pretty fun to watch.

reguarding playing against SH. If you play bigger games, the get weaker. Mabe thats GWs angle. Bigger Games, more models ;-) And as already sad, Flyers are ace. And if you spread out, you should even get some of those 18"+(12") in range.

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Dethdispenser
Kabalite Warrior
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Posts : 188
Join date : 2011-11-21

PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 20 2013, 16:23

One of my buddies brought up a great point that he read somewhere online. GW is wanting to move away from the small games. Small games = less models = less money. Everyone can see GW business model in practice.
The gimmicks so far to sell more models:
Double Force Org at 2k - not 2001. I remember when all my games were 2k single force org in 5th edition. Now we need to make a house rule or play 1999 pts
Escalation Book
Stronghold Book
Allied Supplements
Allies

They are a company trying to sell luxury items. How many of us looked or saw GW changes to the game and automatically lean to no I do not like it?

I am with everyone that D weapons are OP and some of the Meta is just plain horrendous to deal with. But I also think we as players can adapt to changes and that we should. I think I will be trying out a few things here and there to see how I like it. (Won't be running a titan anytime soon, I is poor). But other than that. I'm going to acclimate to the changes as much as I care too.


My buddy and I are going to try to change with the times. Start playing 2250 games and use double force org.
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wanderingblade
Kabalite Warrior
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Posts : 225
Join date : 2013-01-15

PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 21 2013, 10:37

When I got back into 40k with this edition, it was with a small group of friends where rp'ing had soured a little, and we fancied a change. My intent was always to spread my wings and join the larger GW community - playing pick-up games at my local indie store, visiting other clubs, that sort of good thing.

The reality is I have lost all interest in doing so. 40K is at the point where I feel agreement between players over what sort of game you're getting seems incredibly important now. I have no wish to go through that repeatedly.

Moreover, I get that GW will never have perfect balance. I get that GW will release a game with the intention of us guys coming up with our own version. But there comes a point where the amount of work to be done means I do not regard their products as value for money. That has come. I already was very much a second-hand orientated buyer however.
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FullDE
Hellion


Posts : 94
Join date : 2013-06-12

PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 22 2013, 18:51

As others stated, the issue is the titans and D weapons being put in the core game. I get as a poster said, to make them just expansions is redundant to apoc and the like. But they could have modified the D weapon rules to be strength 10 ap1 in normal games. I think that would have fixed alot of it.
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