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Dethdispenser
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PostSubject: GW releases it, Players police it   Thu Dec 12 2013, 16:42

As time is going on GW has slowly in my mind going crazy. The recent release of the Escalation, the DataSheets and the general lack of play testing every supplement have caused the players and TOs to take matters in their hands.

I have found that the Feast of Blades and many other TOs should be coming together to make their own ruling on what should be allowed in regular 40k games and tournaments. But in the mean time this Feast of Blades possible routes.  http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/feast-of-blades-will-be-enacting-restrictions-and-bans/

I just wish GW would be a gaming company once again. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Thu Dec 12 2013, 20:41

Wholeheartedly agree. They have given up any pretence of game balance, crunch maintenance, or recognising that their fanbase may want to play competitively, even if they don't go to tournaments.

They are lazily betraying their gamers, even if they are benefitting their modellers and fluffreaders.
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Fidra
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Thu Dec 12 2013, 22:10

I have to agree. The fluff is mostly good nowadays, notably how it's reflected in the rules... But I don't know, the white dwarfs ain't what they used to be, and haven't been for a long time. They're essentially closer to those catalogue of products they used to have rather than the hobby-centric, universe-expanding magazine I grew up with and loved. I used to genuinely be excited to get the next one, now it's just mostly a rat race to get new products out by the next deadline, and I feel the hobby on the whole suffers for it. Remember the catachan devil rules? The daemonworld rules? Chapter Approved? I miss those days.  

Otherwise I'm consistently scared of the fluff I love being assimilated by Matt Ward and excreted out as something of the same caliber as newcrons/grey knights. I don't know. There's been some beautiful things accomplished in the last few years, and I have noticed that of late there's been a curve in showcasing interesting and unique armies... I just wish they would just take a breath and try to actually enjoy the hobby with us.

Just my 2 slaves.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 00:02

I think everyone has overreacted to Stronghold Assault and especially Escalation.

Everyone knows that all tournies will ban super heavies and is likely to happen at Throne of Skulls too, the only issue being pick up games but I can't see many people skulking round my shop with a Revenant hidden in their bag.

A lot of indie tournaments in the UK ban some of the fortifications from the rulebook and will pick and choose what happens with the new book. I doubt you'll see the Strongpoints allowed/in use, networks might get banned as well as maybe the shield.

This brings us back to the dataslates and what that means to us, we'll have to see what else comes in the future but I'm sure everyone is in agreement that being able to be used in addition to everything else as well as taking no FOC slots is a bit broken.

Would we on here be moaning so hard if there was a killer DE slate?

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 08:15

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Would we on here be moaning so hard if there was a killer DE slate?

XD Well wie have acess to the Revenant, and thats just like a killer DE slate ;-)

But i'm with you. There is an interesting Thread on BOLS - 6th Edition - A new Golden Age? and their he stats that never befor has der been such variety in terms of Models and rules. Never bevor has it been so easy to build very good looking terrain and with the current paint range you can easily paint a good looking army. Sure, balance issues are there, but with that big of a system, it's just normal.

Concerning the FOB ruling, i would like to read the article but it just does not seem to load. the rest of the site works, just not that article, but on the regular page you can read the first few columns and i find the tone a bit harsh.
FoB wrote:
The inclusion of Strength D into the game, following months and months of “power combo” lists taking top tables at tournaments has made it more than evident that this game as written simply isn't designed for or appropriate for ANY sort of high-level competitive play.

The Power Combo problem has been there for quite some time but actually has decreased since the addition of allies, variety in list building has increased, as there are now more then evener different possibilitys to play an army. Sure there are some codizes and units that are Net-Lists/On-Klick-pony/Win-at-all-costs-favorites like screamer star or the farsight bomb but they now get stomped due to D-weapons. One could call that a balace ;-)

The funny thing is, a good portion of tournament players are the ones that fuel the money monster that is part of GW and are also the ones that are crieing the loudest.
If there wheren't those codex-hopping-junkies, then the power creep would not be so such a good money maker for GW.

but then again, i'm just a humble casual player, that likes to listen to podcasts, most of them tournament related. what do i know ;-)

sláinte

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 09:20

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
The Power Combo problem has been there for quite some time but actually has decreased since the addition of allies

On this issue I have to disagree. If anything, it's the addition of allies that is enabling the ridiculous combos. The ability to add Independent Characters (and their USRs) to your units is creating all sorts of powerful units that I'm fairly sure the designers at GW never even imagined, which highlights the failure of their (apparently) extremely limited playtesting.

Removing the ability for ICs to join units from different detachments, in the same way that they are prohibited from boarding allied transports, would immediately block most (not all) of the more extreme killer units. A fresh round of FAQs fixing some of the more obvious rules issues wouldn't go amiss either.

I'm not surprised at the stance that FoB is taking, and the similar response from Reecius in respect of the Las Vegas Open, but I think there are better ways to deal with the situation.

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MurDok
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 12:19

Okay I have to put my 2 cents in, I traded up from playing mtg to 40k. The reason I did it was simply the fact that WotC stopped making the game for the casual gamer and switched to making the competitive player happier and in turn allowed them to crank out more over powered products (i.e.. cards, limited edition boxes, etc). After experiencing that, I feel like I'm starting to have déjà vu with 40k

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 12:45

If Stronghold assault and Escalation were pitched as expansions, like planetstike or cities of death, I don't think anyone would be worried about it...it would be..."hey, lets use our super-heavies today" or "I want to use all that cool terrain in a massive story driven way" and we would probably all approve of the books...maybe not all the content, but at least the idea.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 13:42

Well put Nappen

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 14:25

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
The Power Combo problem has been there for quite some time but actually has decreased since the addition of allies

On this issue I have to disagree. If anything, it's the addition of allies that is enabling the ridiculous combos. The ability to add Independent Characters (and their USRs) to your units is creating all sorts of powerful units that I'm fairly sure the designers at GW never even imagined, which highlights the failure of their (apparently) extremely limited playtesting.

Removing the ability for ICs to join units from different detachments, in the same way that they are prohibited from boarding allied transports, would immediately block most (not all) of the more extreme killer units. A fresh round of FAQs fixing some of the more obvious rules issues wouldn't go amiss either.

I'm not surprised at the stance that FoB is taking, and the similar response from Reecius in respect of the Las Vegas Open, but I think there are better ways to deal with the situation.

I have to disagree. The only really bad combos by joing IC are a SM Captain joining a IG Blog (wich is fluffy! ) and psykers joing squads, but they often can also buff a squad, without joining.

The really bad combos are because of unbalanced units or wargear, e.g. screamerstar or the farsight bomb. both do not need an ally.

But the reaction of the TOs is not supprising. Most also banned mysterious terrain/objects, they are really fun, and as random, as a boltershot ;-)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 14:31

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
The Power Combo problem has been there for quite some time but actually has decreased since the addition of allies

On this issue I have to disagree. If anything, it's the addition of allies that is enabling the ridiculous combos. The ability to add Independent Characters (and their USRs) to your units is creating all sorts of powerful units that I'm fairly sure the designers at GW never even imagined, which highlights the failure of their (apparently) extremely limited playtesting.

Removing the ability for ICs to join units from different detachments, in the same way that they are prohibited from boarding allied transports, would immediately block most (not all) of the more extreme killer units. A fresh round of FAQs fixing some of the more obvious rules issues wouldn't go amiss either.

I'm not surprised at the stance that FoB is taking, and the similar response from Reecius in respect of the Las Vegas Open, but I think there are better ways to deal with the situation.

I have to disagree. The only really bad combos by joing IC are a SM Captain joining a IG Blog (wich is fluffy! ) and psykers joing squads, but they often can also buff a squad, without joining.

Tau Commanders, Jetseers, The Baron, SM Chapter Masters on bikes with the Shield thingy etc, etc. I think you're missing alot of possibilities for abuse.

Warhammer World has just announced that Codex Adepta Sororitas, Codex Inquisition, Battlescrolls, Dataslates, Stronghold Assault and Escalation are all now in use at events at Warhammer World.

Probably not such a huge problem there as the games are generally 1500. Will still be thinking twice about whether to attend any future events there though as the thought of D-weapons in normal games simply doesn't appeal to me.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 14:35

I think the problem is the players. Lack of self-control, lack of courtesy, and lack of a sporting attitude in the tournament scene as well as the pick-up scene (at least State-side) is to blame as far as I'm concerned.

I want to play fun games, for bragging rights and the glory of your favorite army and the people I know really look down on internet super lists. Its this hyper-competitive win at all costs attitude that makes the game extremely frustrating at times, not the game. Its like real life, it pays to be cut-throat , but it doesnt make it right, and doesn't make it a rewarding life.

In the end its the players and the way they choose to play who define the community. All the player generated rules, regulations, useless consensus building will only force players into new modes and methods of exploitative play style. Go ahead, ban formations, ban superheavies all the cut-paste internet list players with their tripe riptide, screamerstar, wave serpent spam will be laughing their way all the way to the bank. Its a voluntary attitude change thats required, not a tournament scene subset of rules that dictate what should and shouldn't be played.

EDIT: Also let me be clear, I'm not saying I don't like tournaments or the people who play in them. I've nothing but the utmost respect for guys Reece from Frontline gaming, and my boy Skari who totally goes against the grain in terms of tourney list building, I'm just saying for myself that trying to beat the meta, isn't worth it. While tournaments, and the attitude that prevails there remain, I think campaigns, and events held at people's houses where an accountability amongst friends trumps a win at all costs attitude are far a more enjoyable investment of my time.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 19:52

Read it and weep: Forgeworld Lord of War update.

TLDR: everything Apocalyptic Forgeworld makes is now legal as a Lord of War.
Of course Dark Eldar get nothing.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 20:42

Including the Tau Manta
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 22:27

@Cavalier wrote:
I think the problem is the players. Lack of self-control, lack of courtesy, and lack of a sporting attitude in the tournament scene as well as the pick-up scene (at least State-side) is to blame as far as I'm concerned.
It's the players?

No, I really disagree with that. They're playing a game and fielding legal units and armies within that game, and are intending to win the battle and will therefore take stuff that will help them do that.

Game balance is not the job of the player, it is the job of the developer. That's cut and dry, and to say otherwise is weird to me. If it's the "players" fault...well, what should or shouldn't I, as a player, bring? Is that on you to decide? Is it on me? What are my limits? What if I have a Kabal based around stealing ancient Eldar tech, why can't I field a Revenant? Also, frankly, Tzeentch armies with Heralds on Discs with the Grimore...that *does* sound fluffy, that sounds like exactly what Tzeentch would be about. So what are these hidden limiters players are supposed to use? And, even if, say, 75% of us did exactly that, would the other 25% not still affect the tournament scene and prevent 75% of the playerbase from even having a chance to win? If so - then I submit it has nothing to do with the players being at fault.

I don't fault players for wanting to win the game.
I'd fault them for cheating, if we had a problem with cheating then THAT is a problem with the playerbase.
If we had fights, or disorderly and rude conduct at all event gatherings then it is a problem of the playerbase.
This is not a player based problem.

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Fri Dec 13 2013, 22:29

Mandor: I love your small print!
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 02:49

Just makes me love my DE more Smile
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 03:18

@Mandor wrote:
Read it and weep: Forgeworld Lord of War update.

TLDR: everything Apocalyptic Forgeworld makes is now legal as a Lord of War.
Of course Dark Eldar get nothing.

I was really excited about possibly bringing my Scorpion to a game thinking that if they allowed us to take a clearly Eldar only thing, why wouldn't they let us take other things? Then I read it....damn  Razz 

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 12:05

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
@Mandor wrote:
Read it and weep: Forgeworld Lord of War update.

TLDR: everything Apocalyptic Forgeworld makes is now legal as a Lord of War.
Of course Dark Eldar get nothing.

I was really excited about possibly bringing my Scorpion to a game thinking that if they allowed us to take a clearly Eldar only thing, why wouldn't they let us take other things? Then I read it....damn  Razz 
Well, I'd recommend being a bit skeptical when someone suggests to play a 2500+ pts game now. At least it'd be a fast game:

  1. Set up "48" hull point Phantom Titan;
  2. Target two units in opponent's deployment zone;
  3. Cover entire deployment zone with 2 10" strength D blast markers;
  4. Wipe out opponent's entire army;
  5. Start a new game.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 14:24

To be fair, The Phantom is 3500pts and you don't have to agree to play against it. I don't see any tournaments these days running at 5,000pts+ so I guess that won't be losing any sleep over that impossibility  Razz 

I did play in an Apoc event where the organizer brought one along with [b]10 Corsair Princes[b] so that he could fire with the Phantom and have a fresh prince bust the nightfight missile immediately after so that the Phantom couldn't be targeted. It was a load of garbage and no one had fun outside of the tool that brought the Phantom. Next event? People banned it. The super-titans are pretty brutal if you don't have one yourself. (And are enough points that this should never be a problem per Escalation rules)

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 19:21

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
(And are enough points that this should never be a problem per Escalation rules)
Really? The Phantom Titan is 2500 points, so yeah, that one probably won't make the short list. But the Reaver Titan is 1450 and the Warhound is 720. Those are perfectly doable in 2000 point games. You could even run them in 1750. And with their armour, void shields, hull points and 6/4 Strength D blasts they'll give you a run for your money. Unless you field a Titan of your own of course. Then it's a 50% chance you'll win (unless you and/or your opponent take Coteaz/Baron/Vect).

So basically, if you want to play 40k now and not be blown off the table first turn, you have to field a Titan. And get first turn. And then you win the game. Why even bother setting up? Show your army list, do two or three dice rolls and call it a night.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sat Dec 14 2013, 19:58

@Mandor wrote:
Really? The Phantom Titan is 2500 points

Oops, I was going off the top of my head(my wife was sleeping in the room where my IA11 is and I didn't dare wake her  Razz )


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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 07:50

Ok so now that Throne of Skulls has officially announced Stronghold and Escalation are TOURNEY LEGAL, repeat OFICIALLY TOURNEY LEGAL, do Dark Eldar players just quit now? No dataslates, no super heavies, no love? And don't tell me DE revnant titan, the line about DE stealing eldar tech is crap, you would never field a unit that you couldn't repair after. No bonesingers, no fixxy.
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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 10:04

I was hoping that this thread would eventually turn to solutions and tweaks to our strategies rather than a WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOOOMED. The quote in my sig is from a member that prevented me from avoiding this site around the rumors of/actual release of 6th edition. I heard a lot of the same arguments/rants when the sky was falling and DE would never win another game EVER. It's easy to lose your mind when there is a change in the meta and you try to use old methods/builds. I know that the internet is a great place to rant, but there comes a time when you have to ask yourself if you are getting yourself tied into a knot over what might happen in the worst case scenario (someone showing up with a $350-$800 USD titan), and what you actually have to play against. If someone shows up with one of these things, PLAY THEM, if you lose PLAY THEM AGAIN TRYING SOMETHING NEW. Adapt, enjoy the hobby. If not having superheavies makes you want to sell your DE, enjoy playing an army that needs $350-800 FW models and unsavy opponents to win.

*Clicks stop watching this post  Razz 

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PostSubject: Re: GW releases it, Players police it   Sun Dec 15 2013, 10:54

I always thought that if we DE ever even got sight of a titan, we were to hightail it back to Commoragh and find an easier target???
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