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 Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity

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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 05:07

Fellow Archons:

Today, I represented the true kin at a FLGS tournament. Although I am satisfied with my performance ( I placed first, winning $70 in a 22 man tournament), my final game was the most difficult but not because the list or the tactics of my opponent were especially challenging. What made it difficult was the attitude my opponent brought to the game.

What I mean by gamesmanship is best described by the Wikipedia page:

Quote :
Potter cites the origin of gamesmanship to be a tennis match in which he and the philosopher C. E. M. Joad competed against two younger and fitter men who were outplaying them fairly comfortably. On returning a serve, Joad hit the ball straight into the back-netting twelve feet behind the back-line. While the opponents were preparing for the next serve, Joad 'called across the net, in an even tone: "Kindly state clearly, please, whether the ball was in or out"'. Being young, polite university students, their opponents offered to replay the point, but Joad declined. Because they were young and polite, the slight suggestion by Joad that their etiquette and sportsmanship were in question was extremely off-putting, and distracted them for the rest of contest. Potter and Joad went on to win the match.
Basically, the game begins. I am playing with this list and my opponent is playing a "nidzilla" variant that used Warriors and Genestealer blobs, Harpies, Hive Guard, and the Swarmlord. After he tried to assault my Bastion with his infiltrating Genestealers, I knew it was going to be a long game. He tried the old "hey, I'm rolling or not rolling what saves you say I have" trick to imply cheating when Focus Firing a Warrior standing behind a lamp post (his contention was probably that it was in ruins but less than 25% of the model was covered; also, was not in area terrain).

There were other issues that seem to me to be blatant cases of cheating. Specifically, I shot up his Harpies but he claimed that Flying Monstrous Creatures that are hit only take one grounding test after all shooting has concluded. I happened to know that was not the case having played against a Fateweaver / Daemon Prince of Tzeentch list several months before but he continued to claim otherwise. I took him at his word and we moved on. He assaulted me with a Harpy and claimed that my initiative was permanently halved (as long as that Harpy was alive) although the FAQ suggests otherwise (I don't own the codex).

The game he directly told me that I had a "bad attitude" and that he was "looking to have a fun game." He stopped trying that after after I cried an Indian tear. There were many congratulations and "it was a fun game" after I finished tabling him but there was an underlying hostility. He certainly liked to emphasize the point that "it was a competitive army" but "not as competitive as what they play down at X." There was a great deal of patronizing, such as "Next time, I'll play without a painted army." I found it to be a particularly strange comment because it seemed to suggest that I couldn't make something "more competitive."

What was strange was, after everything was said and done, the tournament organizer told me that I had come up on the "the local radar" and that the better players were looking to play me. If, as I suspect, the local "competitive players" also happen to deliberately misremember and misinterpret rules, i am not sure if that is a good thing.

How ought I go about handling this? I don't really want to straight up accuse someone of cheating. The gamesmanship is a bigger problem, I think, simply because it's psychological and not against the letter of the rules.

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steev
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 05:47

If there are prizes to be won then people will be competitive and try shenanigans. If you don't like it then avoid those types of games (I don't play tournaments). Even in friendlies I come up against people with low self-esteem that need to boost themselves by winning the game, or a particular argument, or make you acknowledge how cooler their models are than yours, ect. The only solution I have is to find my self worth in things other than 40K so that when I play 40K, I play for fun and it really doesn't bother me if my opponent is a prat because I have no self worth invested in the game anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 05:54

The game is meant to be played for fun, but we as players have a obligation to play them as right as possible. If you know the rules that is contradicting what your opponent is saying, then point it out to them, or ask tournament organizer for a ruling if its muddy.

I myself hated opponents roll 2 dices for single TL weapon without any special rules, it is definitely breaking the rules of twin link, but in the case of probability it isn't cheating. They claim it saves time, which is negated by the time they wasted for confusing me. I just ask them to play by the rules and roll TL as intended.

On your examples: the hidden behind a thin post is not valid for a cover save, especially if its not area terrain; not sure about the flying grounding rule, he might of thought like morale test, which is once at the end of the phase; not sure about the half Initiative, you have to look at the special rules and grenades. Again: ask the organizer for clarification or look it up, if its not too important, let it go or roll a 4+ and look it up afterwards.
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 09:15

Unfortunately, there will always be people like that in a competitive environment. In tournaments, the goal that people go for is to win the games, not make friends. This doesn't mean that all tournament players display such passive-aggressive nature and shenanigans, far from it, but unless they go in with the mindset to just playing their games as well as they can, and instead choose to go for the prize, well, it's expected to see such shenanigans.

The stories I've heard of local tournaments - forgetting special rules and unit types, then "conveniently" remembering them again, shoddy proxies (apparently, a sheet of paper folded vaguely in the shape of a Necron Night Scythe is fair game), a winner going to second place because a judge (who was also competing, of course) at the last moment decided that the punishment for sending in the army list late wasn't severe enough and subtracting just enough points to pull ahead... well, this stuff happens. Were I to ever go to a tournament, I'd be prepared to contest any doubtful ruling and call judge, because that's what others do, too.

Honestly, this is why I prefer casual friendly games - while people like this exist in such environment too, it's much easier to avoid them - I simply don't have to play with such a fellow at all, instead playing with people that share my views in what makes the game fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 12:56

You were right on grounding and on the harpies-which you know since the FAQ is VERY clear ("fight sub-phase")

Sometimes people get lost in the moment and that is okay-emotion is part of it. Hard to tell sometimes between honestly forgetting a rule (which we all do) and just being a poor sport. I am a bit of a rules hound and honestly like to look up the rules and discuss them as I play. It drives some people crazy, but if I don't understand or think it is right I pull out the book, codex or ask the organizer to rule on it. If pressed for time or too complex then let the dice decide and figure it out later. I consider myself in learning mode whenever I play-but I also think the rules discussions are fun, so I am not a normal person.

If someone is blatantly cheating and even after the correct rule is pointed out is a poor sport, I smile, laugh, joke, finsih the game and just don't play with them again. But, I have found that to be very few people.
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 17:13

Dark_Kindred wrote:
I shot up his Harpies but he claimed that Flying Monstrous Creatures that are hit only take one grounding test after all shooting has concluded. I happened to know that was not the case having played against a Fateweaver / Daemon Prince of Tzeentch list several months before but he continued to claim otherwise. I took him at his word and we moved on.
In my experience never ever let someone get away with breaking the rules. With practice it only takes 30s to look up a rules in the BRB (especially the pocket version). If you let things like this slide, all it does is tell your opponent that he can get away with breaking the rules, and he will most likely try to break more (it's like giving him a green light for rule shenanigans). Be careful with tournament organisers always make sure you have the rule book open at the right page and show it to them. If you just ask them about a rule without looking it up in the book they could make a mistake, or side with your opponent if they are friends.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 18:28

have to agree with mush here. Have the said page open (and FAQ,s & possible clarifications) when calling for judge. Even they don't always the right of the rules. (I had a false judge call about Barons +1 to go first roll in a big international tournament. Even my opponent who plays DE didn't know about the FAQ difference from get to choose the deployment side. Luckily we had FAQs at hand at the time)

Problem comes when there is room for interpretation in the rules as they are not always 100% clear. In Shadows case they although were very clear.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 18:54

steev wrote:
If there are prizes to be won then people will be competitive and try shenanigans. If you don't like it then avoid those types of games (I don't play tournaments). Even in friendlies I come up against people with low self-esteem that need to boost themselves by winning the game, or a particular argument, or make you acknowledge how cooler their models are than yours, ect. The only solution I have is to find my self worth in things other than 40K so that when I play 40K, I play for fun and it really doesn't bother me if my opponent is a prat because I have no self worth invested in the game anyway.

2c
Your advice is very well taken steev. We always need to remember that this is a game and that we all play for fun. That said, it's not really in my nature to let slights pass (although I am getting better), particularly at an event I payed to participate in.

macknight wrote:
The game is meant to be played for fun, but we as players have a obligation to play them as right as possible.
This.

Nappen wrote:
You were right on grounding and on the harpies-which you know since the FAQ is VERY clear ("fight sub-phase")

If someone is blatantly cheating and even after the correct rule is pointed out is a poor sport, I smile, laugh, joke, finsih the game and just don't play with them again. But, I have found that to be very few people.
I did not know about the Harpy's initiative halving ability until after the game was over but I had suspected that was the case because not even Jain Zar can do that. The combination of those two rules infractions could have cost me the game. My Succubus with her cadre of Incubi were having a much harder time carving that beast up without an initiative advantage but it is possible that that melee could have never occurred because of grounding rules.

The hostile levity and gamesmanship is probably a worse problem. He begins the game by trying a first turn assault with infiltrating Genestealers. Not only can you not do this because the infiltration rules clearly state you cannot, I very much take offense to someone saying I am being "defensive" about something that is very clearly (and in an obscure way) against the rules.


I guess there are a few lessons to be learned here. Mushkilla, you're probably right about not letting things slide. It may be worth trying to figure out how to address rules problems without coming off as a jerk (that may or may not be a problem, depending on the circumstances). And also learning how to not take such behavior personally.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 10 2013, 21:04

The Harpy Initiative thing only being for THAT combat phase is in the Nid codex, so I'm not sure where he pulled that from.

Gamesmanship...wise...I think the best approach is to be polite, request during deployment that they explain any special rules the units have, to jog your memory or inform you, depending on how regularly you see that unit, and if they "misinterpret" a rule, just explain the rule to them calmly and, again, politely.

It may come across as condescending sometimes, but it seems to work for me. Unless I was wrong, which I sometimes am.

For example, only discovered that you get +2 to your cover in area terrain last month...

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Thu Nov 14 2013, 22:15

Regarding letting things slide: In a tournament, the time to talk about any rules issues is at the point they occur. Because once you have continued on with the game then you have de facto agreed to things standing.

Bringing it up at some later date will only serve to brand you in a bad way..unless you are very non-accusing. For example, "Hey, you remember the grounding test on FMC? I realized we both got that wrong. Apparently how it works is...." This isn't accusatory and if handled properly will help both of you.

Tournament play is different from regular play in a lot of ways. One of the more important aspects is that it is up to you to know not just the rules of your own army, but the rules of your opponents as well. Yes, that's a lot to learn; but it will help you in a LOT of ways.

One way is that you are going to run into 2 situations on rules issues. The first is an opponent that knows his army inside and out but is banking on you not knowing some of his drawbacks. That opponent may "forget" certain negative items unless you bring them up.

The second is an opponent who either doesn't know his army very well OR simply gets flustered from the pressure - more people than you guess fall into this category. This person isn't purposely cheating but may simply get caught up in the excitement and forget things like morale checks or even fail to measure correctly.

I remember one tournament game in 5th where I forgot my reserves until turn 5... They came in and essentially turned a loss into a big win. My opponent was NOT happy but I'm not sure what else we could have done at that point.

If you want a clean game, then it's on you to ensure that everything is kosher which means knowing everyone's army.

That said, if you don't know a core mechanic rule (such as how grounding works), then I don't think you have a right to complain about how it was played. Especially considering this is an extremely simple thing to look up in the 30s Mush talked about. Failing to know how this works on your part AND failing to look at the book when it comes up is certainly not something that you then bring up with an opponent hours or even days after the event. If this is the case then the best thing to do is drop it until it comes up again.

I hope my post doesn't sound too harsh as that's not the intent. The intent is simply that you should expect a certain amount of rules issues, whether intentional or not, at any gaming event and therefore should be as prepared as possible going into it. If things happen then you agree to the outcome - regardless of what it is - the moment you move on to the next phase/turn.




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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Fri Nov 15 2013, 05:23

The problem I had in this particular game was the opponent contriving "checking and following the rules" with "having a bad attitude." Case and point: He tried to assault my bastion turn one with his Genestealers. The rules for infiltrate state that he clearly cannot do that. I use focus fire to snipe Tyranid Warriors with Dark Lances. You place Fortifications before rolling for deployment and they can be placed in your table half (not just deployment zone).

These were all very clear-cut issues that can up within the first ten minutes of the match. As the game was largely decided by the end of turn one (dead Swarm Lord, dead Hive Guard, crippled Warriors, and so on) and I was more befuddled by the ad hominem attacks. There were also cases of TOs looking up rules and providing incorrect answers. Ex: If an enemy unit has gone to ground, models without assault grenades attack at initiative when despite moving through cover. The TO ruled against the actual rule by going on the "Go to Ground" rule entry.

The problem is to not come off as a jerk while following the rules, which people will try to twist into a psychological advantage.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Fri Nov 15 2013, 14:15

If by end of turn 1 the game was largely decided, then I would just simply play the rest of the game as fun as possible and let none important shinanagans go to get the game over with as fast as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Fri Nov 15 2013, 15:48

Those things tend to happen with money on prize.

Next time you hear the rule and know its wrong, just ask "show me the book pls". That way there is no defense or offense, you could ask clarification any time and be ready to show any rule and wargear you are using.

Thats just tournament courtesy, nothing special, ETC use it all the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 17 2013, 08:50

I feel the pain here. I have had an experienced opponent with either dubious reading comprehension skills or a propensity for being one-eyed. He was being very abrupt and saying "You can't blah-blah" time and time again. Despite losing a number of rule debates in the same game, even with the intervention of other senior players often chipping in to help the chap understand, it was ultimately futile and the game was both unpleasant and unsporting.
There are people like this fellow that do try to pull some magnificent tall ones. I do not think it is deliberate so much as it is... sad?
eg- I am pre-measuring with my models on the table during my deployment. I am being told off that if this was a tournament I wouldn't be able to move a model once it has been placed on the table(?). This sets the tone...
In a disordered charge I am supposed to completely surround my primary target before I can charge a secondary target (?) What planet is this guy from?
ETC, etc,...
It was quite easily the most frustrating stop start experience I have had and it burns me as I write this. My hope is that the fellow learned something but I fear habit is a creature that is hard to break and it is just easier for him to bully his way through a game because he has been able to believe his own BS for so long. By tomorrow, when I am at work, I won't give this chap another thought- ah bless the real world - but I really do feel for the next person.




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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 17 2013, 09:21

Quote :
I am being told off that if this was a tournament I wouldn't be able to move a model once it has been placed on the table(?). This sets the tone...
You can always chose the position of letter of the rules with a person like this.

Is there a rule like this in the book? Would you care to show me. Is there a rule like this in in tournament rules ? Would you care to show me?

Blank neutrality and de-facto attitude break those kind of people, those who like to argue fold when there is no argument to participate. Participating in arguments on the other hand feeds them.

And remember. Poker Face is your friend here =).
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 17 2013, 16:45

I think I have just been very lucky...and don't play in tournaments due to location. I just have not had that many games with people like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Sun Nov 17 2013, 21:38

Yikes. It is for this reason i dont play in many tournaments (as well as not finding it fun to play 15 slightly different variations of taudar or a screamer council). Unfortunately when any sort of prize is available it brings out the worst in some people. It is difficult to deal with in a tournament setting as you cant really say 'screw this' and walk away. I think Azdrubael is spot on in his post about the poker face and rule book checking.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Mon Nov 18 2013, 09:10

Can't read my, can't read my, no you can't read my Poker Face. Azdrubael, just noting your nationality there... which vodka could numb my pain/expressive face the best?drunken
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Mon Nov 18 2013, 09:15

Zhuravli =) But I doubt you can get it outside of Russia.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Mon Nov 18 2013, 09:19

Zhuravli... sounds like I'm slurring "you're lovely" after half a bottle. Mint!

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Mon Nov 18 2013, 12:15

Heh, well thats just half the bottle. Zhuravl is a bird, crane in english.

Nowadays whisky is more popular in Mother Russia then vodka. Jameson is almost nationall drink now =).
Globalisation and all that.

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Mon Nov 18 2013, 13:08

spellcheck2001 wrote:
I think Azdrubael is spot on in his post about the poker face and rule book checking.
I would say, it depends on your opponent ... Last saturday I played a big friendly game with a new CSM player in order to show him the rules.
Our opponent was a good friend of mine, but as he is a friend, he knows me very well, and he always tries to taunt me. He is playing Tau since about a month. This time I decided not to react to his taunts. It worked well in the beginning of the game.

After plenty of exotic Tau maneuvers, multiples shots without cover, no line of sight, etc... I was a bit sceptical. I requested him to "show me the rule".He told me I don't trust him. I answered that I don't know all the Tau tricks and I want to learn, so I took his codex and finally found the tracker missiles rule. Later in the game, I requested him several time to show me his codex, and seeing he was going upset, I let it down, saying I trust him in order to avoid any further argument (especially for our new player).

Then he argued "how cheated are venoms with 12 splinter shots"... the new CSM player laughed at him as he had just taken at least 80 snap shots the turn before (and even more shots the turn before), when trying to assault with his khorne zerkers.

Poker face = yes
Show me the rule = it works better if you already know the rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Wed Nov 20 2013, 06:56

O-ho-ho- Dark Eldar are so cheaty. When you lose to Dark Eldar, you have been outplayed by a superior general. That is what should scar more than anything. We can't yet shoot a BS10 cover ignoring S9AP2 pie plate down the end of a table like a riptide helped by a commander in a marker-drone cloud can. Can't even ally with the bugger very well, either.
Armies with superior armour= everything! Armies with superior variety of guns= everything! Armies with superior psychic powers= Anything that can field a psyker! Armies with superior cuddles for other races=most (sorry nids). Very few natural advantages (woo-hoo night-fight when that comes up though!)

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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Thu Nov 21 2013, 02:41

That is the reason to play DE. Heck, we are not really the fastest anymore either Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Gamesmanship, Imperfect Rule Information, and Hostile Levity   Thu Nov 21 2013, 03:30

Too right! White Scars with that dirty scout move T1 make 24" disappear pretty quickly.

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