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harry5518
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PostSubject: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 08:59

hello all. i have found this whole topic about arhra abandoning his craftworld peers and his position as the leader of the striking scorpions interesting. ive seen some sources that say he 'burns with the dark light of chaos' which means he would have become some sort of chaos eldar (lol) i find this weird, because i doubt many archons would have bodyguards whos cult is founded by a worshipper of chaos.

maybe he isnt, and just fled to commoragh, and founded his striking scorpions 2.0 (incubi), after a while disappears, and returns with a new suit of armour, and goes under a new name, drazhar.
what do you think?

make an interesting model conversion(s) arhra when he turns, or when he founds the incubi (think of a striking scorpion exarch, soulstones filed off, cape, armed with a klaive or demiklaive.
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 09:45

Moving this Background question to the Background section.

This is also three pages of similar talk here:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t149-is-drazhar-really-a-pheonix-lord

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 08 2013, 16:34

I dont think Drazhar is Arhra at all. I really feel that Arha fell to chaos (yes, chaos eldar exist) and Draz was just one of his diciples like Kharandras. Just instead of sticking with the new layout of the Scorpions that Kharandras brought to the table (the patient hunter, stealth) He kept to Arhra's old teachings of pure combat prowess. But again this is just what I believe.

As for official cannon, we really have little to go on. We know Arhra existed, and we know he had a disagrement with the rest of the Shrine of Azura, to which he killed most of the participants and burned it down. Then his diciple Kharandras went after Arhra, and came back alive and changed how the Scorpions functioned. We also know the Incubi have a deep hatred for the Scorpions, and will even leave their charge to fight them on the battlefield. This is ofc all older fluff.

Now we have Drazhar being the "boogyman" of Incubi shrines, and running around with PL stats. This only points towards him having some connection to Arhra, but then again look at Kharandras. Not originally a PL but has PL stats... So maybe Draz is the same way??? Its just GW leaving open questions to have people fill in with whatever they feel is right.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 09 2013, 20:14

Having just finished my third run through of Path of the Incubus, I feel qualified to answer this Smile

When Mor explains the story of Ahra to Motley he does so as the Incubi leaders teach the aspirants. Motley wanted to know from an Incubus, because he felt the Craftworld version would have been ''more then a little biased''. In Mors tale it says that Ahra taught his followers true fury and how to use it, and didn't accept the other of the Asurs teachings that rage should be able to be thrown away like a mask, while Ahra saw it as a way of life. So Ahra left the P.Lords and set up his own shrines which eldar flocked to, but Ahra personally fought each one and only those who could prove themselves where taught, the others where killed. He still stood and fought against Chaos (This part gets me, he didn't fall to chaos) but eventually Chaos attacked his Shrine, he battled through day and night waiting for the other P.Lords to help, none came and eventually Ahra fell and was 'Pierced through the heart with the dark light of chaos'. Ahra managed to get back to another shrine, but his form was corrupted by chaos and his disciples fled. Ahra told the remaining they must slay his form, for it was a test. When Ahra was slew, each of them partook in Ahra's spirit into them to keep him and his teachings alive. These disciples became the Incubi.

So he is dead, in as much as any P.Lord can be dead. Ahra lives through his Incubi, so it is perfectly plausible for his spirit to animate a suit of armour much akin to an eldar wraith. Never sleeps, never eats, never uses the potty, he doesn't fulfil the processes of life, so therefore cannot be alive, that leaves few other options. Drazhar maybe a way of weeding out the true followers of Ahra from the Politicking Hierarches, the fury of Ahra incarnate. But as with most 40k things, we have no proof, and I think the answers we got from Path of the Incubi (Great read, as was path of the renegade, I thoroughly advocate for it) are the most complete you are likely to get, along with a surprise appearance from the Man himself!
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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 03:37

Put such piece in spoiler or something, I don't mind, but it's a spoiler for those who haven't read the book (I still haven't)

GW decided to keep this a mystery, it's not that bad, we all enjoy an open end, open to any interpretation.


It's always nice to know all aspects of the fluff, to ,know something about ahra, it's good to know about P lord.
All Phoenix lords are dead actually, same goes for exarchs. P lords are just an advanced form of exarchs. They're kind of the backwards process of the wraithguard, instead of putting waystones on a dead wraithbody, instead an eldar sacrifices his body (and min)d to put into the armor with the waystones with the personality of the P lord/exarch.
The difference with the exarch and P lord: The eldar that goes into an exarch armor loses his indivuality, he's merged with the exarchs mind and all the previous minds of all the old owners. He still remembers his old selfs, but also remembers all the older personalities that entered the armor. His name changes to that of the exarch however.
An eldar that sacrifices himself to become a P lord losses his mind and memories completely, the old P lord takes over his body completely.
Both these processes are only possible thanks to the waystones.
A P lord can die in battle, he can be re-animated if another eldar sacrifices himself to revive his essence. Same for the exarch, but it's more complicated with exarchs (explained in details in the Path of the Warrior)

Now Dark Eldar don't use these waystones, meaning Ahra did possibly die (BL books aren't canonical though I admit the 2 eldar trilogies that came out are very accurate BTW) His spirit couldn't be protected. His armor however should remain preserved. Drahzars armor like mentioned is of ancient origin, it's not incorrect to assume it may be Ahras old armor, but ahras personality wasn't preserved.
One very specially skilled incubi is probably trained individually to carry on the legacy of Drahzar, once a very powerful incubi, or just a new name for this incubi legend. Seeing how dark eldar can get very old, it may just be one guy who's never been killed or either just a handful of individuals that have passed on as Drahzar.

The fact that Ahra fell to chaos was never confirmed officially, neither his death. Now ignoring this BL book, it possible also that the armor does have waystones with the old personality of Ahra, but either maybe he forgot his old self (due to this chaos attack?) or he just remains the silent type willingly (and changed his name). Incubi are very silent from nature, it's not really weird for one of the best incubi to be extra silent. It's a miracle and a condradiction in fact to write a book about incubi, seeing how they're not supposed to talk that much.

Another huge theory may be that Drahzar was just a disciple of Ahra as well ,like Karandras was. Would it surprise you? Just like Karandras is num 2, Drahzar may be the second greatest incubi ever.

Like I said in another thread: old codices, old rulebooks, etc... are all still canonical.
One major piece of fluff on ahra, one of the few official pieces we have:

page 128 of the previous rulebook:
928.M41 (yep 41th century) : Ahra and Karandras both Scorpion Phoenix Lords and sworn enemies fight a bitter duel during 17 days in the ruins of the ancient Zandros

Still alive and still kickin', fairly close to the current timeline as well. (this is also mentioned in the current eldar codex without the date)

Before the current codex came out, it was repeated that Ahra would be in our codex, however when released Phil kept mystery over this matter.
Ahra isn't the only missing P lord that hasn't been released yet or that's full of mystery.

Now the fact that some incubi is stronger than anyone else, that has stats similar to the P lords, a very ancient armor, special weapons, special abilties, to me that's close enough to a P lord, though GW doesn't admit it officially.

The whole chaos refence doesn't mean much to me, the avatar is a deamon, eldar still use it, Khymera are daemons dark eldar still use them. There hasn't come out a single character or unit saying eldar tainted by chaos, not officially.

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PostSubject: Re: Drazhar-Arhra lore?   Drazhar-Arhra lore? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 17:15

I will point out a daemon and chaos daemons are two completely seperate things. The Avatar is a daemon yes, but it is a psychic representation of the Bloody Handed God by the Eldar. Khymera are native denizens to the warp, so they are like furies and show no aligence to any chaos god. Just because both Eldar societies use these things doesnt make them "tainted" by chaos

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