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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 18:42

Also to be fair, things are improving. 'Codex creep' was much less noticeable in 5th edition than it used to be, and so far all the 6th ed. codices seem to balance out okay... against each other. The Tau are a very tough army (and that's a phrase you never thought you'd hear!), but they don't really wipe the floor with Eldar, Space Meringues, and so on, even with list tailoring! Smile
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Por'vre Tier
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 20:41

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Tau Gunline and Venomspam really comes down to dice rolls, but why you dont hear about it is because your standard missilesuit has a 88% chance to have an effect on a venom, while a venom only takes around a wound from said suit. add in that you can get more suits than venoms, a head on match really is in their favor.
Venoms do have a tougher time dealing with Battlesuits.  I still maintain that they have been deadly on site to any of my basic infantry that hits the board.  What I often see done to deal with XV8s, is to use Splinter weapons to eliminate any drones (which fall as quickly as Fire Warriors), and then hit the suits with Lances or Blasters.  Of course, now you've got to balance two elements rather than spam one, but I Haven't seen many Dark Eldar lists get by without at least a couple lances/Blasters.  

Ravagers I find are a good, long ranged source.  Alternately, I often play against Warriors in Raiders with Splinter Racks, and Blasterborn in Venoms.  I feel this gives a nice balance.

Of course; I may now be overstepping the bounds of "what I know bugs me from experience" to "what looks like it works" or "what my opponent uses".     Wink

Edit:  After looking at some numbers, I feel that you may be underestimating the capability of Venoms a little bit.  A Venom with dual cannons, on average (I believe) will cause 1.33 wounds on a Battlesuit of its two wounds.  Comparatively, the Battlesuit will cause 0.89 hull points of the Venom's two after getting through the Flicker Field/jink.  Of course, these hits are often Penetrating, and so there is a high chance of further damage, however I'd say the difference in likelihood to do damage at all about makes up for this.  Now, an XV8 with two Missile Pods and a Target Lock is about 60 points.  Is this not pretty close to a Venom's price?  Additionally, a single Venom allows you to transport troops, so the cap on Venoms by no means caps the potential Splinter shot output.

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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Oct 05 2013, 10:30

@Por'El Lyi'ot wrote:
To be fair, I'd like to think there's a difference between "powergaming" and "a well written codex." The Tau have, I think, one of the best written codices in the game. With the exception of Aun'Shi and maybe railgun-totting Broadsides, every unit is useful and brings something unique to the table. That fact shouldn't be "overpowered" (which unfortunately, it is); that should be standard.
Quick clarification, horrified that I may have unintentionally offended!

I should have phrased my comment better, and I think used the phrase "power-lurching": by this I mean that I agree that the new codecii are better matched, or at least all have strong counters to each other, but that there is a big gap between the old and the new: if GW wanted to increase power levels, a stop-gap release of FAQs and Errata could have helped those left behind: Genestealers get assault from reserve, Wyches get their CC 4++ against overwatch etc.

The other aspect of power lurching is that many new codex units are TOO powerful: medium range high rate-of-fire guns that can potentially ignore cover AND line-of-sight are TOO strong, and can be spammed; Hiveguard ignored LOS, but a 'Nid army couldn't afford to spam them; Torrent AP3 flying or jumping flamers are similarly too powerful.
Knowing that your opponent could bring them means you MUST bring counters, forcing choices upon you, and limiting your own army choices.

I hope that the next C:T and C:DE give me the tools to fight my friends, but I also hope that it doesn't turn into a Manga cartoon, mega-robot fighting armoured dragon, whilst foot soldiers are trampled underfoot!
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Por'El Lyi'ot
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Oct 05 2013, 20:16

No offense taken! You're absolutely right, of course; not enough (i.e. nothing) has been done to make the older codices competitive. It's just luck whether or not a pre-6th edition codex is accidentally empowered or not. And we're all about spamming the medium-range, high rate-of-fire -- which is pretty much where everyone needs to stand, or at least pass through to within charging distance.
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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Oct 05 2013, 21:31

@commandersasha wrote:
The other aspect of power lurching is that many new codex units are TOO powerful: medium range high rate-of-fire guns that can potentially ignore cover AND line-of-sight are TOO strong, and can be spammed; Hiveguard ignored LOS, but a 'Nid army couldn't afford to spam them; Torrent AP3 flying or jumping flamers are similarly too powerful.
Knowing that your opponent could bring them means you MUST bring counters, forcing choices upon you, and limiting your own army choices.

I hope that the next C:T and C:DE give me the tools to fight my friends, but I also hope that it doesn't turn into a Manga cartoon, mega-robot fighting armoured dragon, whilst foot soldiers are trampled underfoot!
I am all about this comment yo. Seriously, complete ditto. *Applause*

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Mon Oct 07 2013, 16:36

@Por'vre Tier wrote:
Edit:  After looking at some numbers, I feel that you may be underestimating the capability of Venoms a little bit.  A Venom with dual cannons, on average (I believe) will cause 1.33 wounds on a Battlesuit of its two wounds.  Comparatively, the Battlesuit will cause 0.89 hull points of the Venom's two after getting through the Flicker Field/jink.  Of course, these hits are often Penetrating, and so there is a high chance of further damage, however I'd say the difference in likelihood to do damage at all about makes up for this.  Now, an XV8 with two Missile Pods and a Target Lock is about 60 points.  Is this not pretty close to a Venom's price?  Additionally, a single Venom allows you to transport troops, so the cap on Venoms by no means caps the potential Splinter shot output.
venoms are 65 points for two cannons (what we are using in this vaccum) add the points of the troops, and your looking at 110 for 5 warriors (or 125 for what most people take, either 5 warriors w/ blaster, 5 wyches w/ haywires, or the less likely 5 wracks w/ liquifer). The cheapest you can get a venom is 95 points (3 wracks). So point for point a crisis suit is cheaper. Now for the added fire that the troop brings, you cant really account for that due to both being a 36" range gun, and the warriors only be 24. If they do get into range, their weight of fire doesnt do much ( adding .555 to make it 1.885 wounds) but that would most likely be after two rounds of shooting anyway due to the crisis suits JSJ ability.

Like I said, it comes down to dice rolls. Sure, a venom could just outright kill a suit with bad armor saves, but then the venom is highly likely to get blown up by the missile pods (80% chance of a result on what might as well be a one wound model is a high percentage) is not a good trade in my opinion. The game is about making trades in your favor, and a crisis team on equal venoms is not that good of a trade.

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 10:32

@Sabre DeC wrote:
I can't just say "Hey dude...I'm not gonna play you anymore." I mean...he's my roommate. (>_<)

I guess really there's not much option of me beating him....he knows I will always play DE and he only plays Tau. So either he builds a list to let me win, or he stomps my ass. I guess I was hoping that it was just my playing that needed work and I could learn to win even against all the odds stacked against me. But based on what everyone is saying, (that the fact that we know each other's armies, and that Tau can tailor but DE cannot) in addition to the terrain problems... (We typically place terrain in turn and I place as much LoS blocking stuff I can and he places as little as possible...) it seems like this just isn't something that is doable without potentially pissing him off. I do think he plays a little dick-ish because he NEEDS to win so bad...(he has an inferiority complex)...but I don't have that need.

I enjoy winning but not at that cost. I guess I'll just deal with the losses to him as they come up, but I won't go looking for games with him anymore. I'll just stick to playing with my other friends and my local store as I can. It does make me feel better that it's not just me sucking ass at the game.

I play Fantasy as well and run WoC. I wreck face with them every time. However they are pretty much the Necrons of WHFB. Pretty point and shoot. So I came into 40k looking to develop as a player. I chose an army that seemed more difficult...and then lost 12 times consecutively lol.

I've actually got a couple of wins under my belt now, but the Tau fights were always like...two turns before I was tabled and he hadn't lost a single unit. It was very discouraging. I came here to find out if it was absolutely abysmal understanding of the army, the weakness of the Dark Eldar, my friend's excellent understanding of HIS army, or if it was the Tau strength all by itself.

My friend is a fantastic player, (even if he is a little shady sometimes because he's too competitive) but I never thought he was table-me-turn-two-no-losses-ever-even-after-several-rematches better than me. So I thank you gentlemen for that affirmation.

Mushkilla and Barking Agatha you guys are fantastic and have really helped me consider a bunch of things I hadn't thought of before. Everyone else who has participated in this discussion (including Shadows Refuge) was also extremely helpful. I'm pretty much decided that to fight Tau I need to stick with as many shots as possible in my ranged units, and assault the crap out of them with characters in the lead with shadow fields (haemies probably).

I do have a question though...why do you think Forge World is broken and unbalanced? The Tantalus and Reapers are great for us....

mate, your issue is not that tau are broken, its that you're fighting them on their terms. a large empty board with full LOS is perfect tau shooting territory, its no wonder they're kicking your arse.
get some terrain on the board that blocks LoS and you'll find you are much more survivable

you dont have to go mad on expense either, micro art studio do really cheap HDF (high density fibreboard) buildings that look ace:
micro art studio
they pop together in about 5 minutes, no need for glue in my experience, but PVA is fine if you do need it.
Slap a coat of spray primer on (around 5 quid from a hardware store) and a coat of spray colour, (also 5 quid from a hardware store) and you're done. there are plenty of fine details on there if you wanna spend more time on them too.
i've got 3 of these kits and they're all interchangeable and block LoS from multiple angles as well as giving elevation to the battlefield. 40k is an entirely different game when played with the proper amount of terrain, as it is now, you don't really stand much of a chance.

Playing with only area terrain, no-one is going to touch tau in a shooting match other than Imperial Guard. Dark Eldar are not imperial guard!
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Count de Money
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 12:33

I don't have anything useful to add to the discussion but I hate to pass up an opportunity to say screw the Tau.  I hate those nasty things. Cheesy lot of second-hand electric donkey bottom biters.

Post edited - Please do not swear. Thanks. Count Adhemar
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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 16:15

@csjarrat wrote:
mate, your issue is not that tau are broken, its that you're fighting them on their terms. a large empty board with full LOS is perfect tau shooting territory, its no wonder they're kicking your arse.
get some terrain on the board that blocks LoS and you'll find you are much more survivable

you dont have to go mad on expense either, micro art studio do really cheap HDF (high density fibreboard) buildings that look ace:
micro art studio
they pop together in about 5 minutes, no need for glue in my experience, but PVA is fine if you do need it.
Slap a coat of spray primer on (around 5 quid from a hardware store) and a coat of spray colour, (also 5 quid from a hardware store) and you're done. there are plenty of fine details on there if you wanna spend more time on them too.
i've got 3 of these kits and they're all interchangeable and block LoS from multiple angles as well as giving elevation to the battlefield. 40k is an entirely different game when played with the proper amount of terrain, as it is now, you don't really stand much of a chance.

Playing with only area terrain, no-one is going to touch tau in a shooting match other than Imperial Guard. Dark Eldar are not imperial guard!
Mmk so I could not help but read that in a super sexy European accent, so thanks for that. (^_^) Also, NICE FIND with the terrain! Digging that stuff. Yeah I'm pretty much banking on more terrain altogether (not just against Tau) and have decided not to play against his tau anymore unless we play no FW because of the R'varna that just came out. In 2000pts he can field like....16 riptides. (I don't know if that's within points, but it is within slots...) and knowing him, he probably would. So yeah, non'o'that please.

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Last edited by Sabre DeC on Wed Oct 16 2013, 16:23; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 16:20

@Sabre DeC wrote:
[have decided not to play against his tau anymore unless we pay no FW because of the R'varna that just came out. In 2000pts he can field like....16 riptides. (I don't know if that's within points, but it is within slots...) and knowing him, he probably would. So yeah, non'o'that please.
It's 17 I think. With double FOC at 2000 points he could take:

Farsight Enclaves Riptide IC (HQ)
6 x Riptides (primary detachments)
2 x Riptides (allied detachments)
6 x R'varna (primary detachments)
2 x R'varna (allied detachments)

The R'varna's alone are over 2000 points though!

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 16:22

Isn't there a riptide HQ as well?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 16:29

@Sabre DeC wrote:
Isn't there a riptide HQ as well?
Err...yes there is. First one on my list (above).

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 16 2013, 17:02

LOLOLOL I can math to potato.

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Oct 19 2013, 15:37

They should just make Riptide troops in the next codex.
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 29 2013, 07:58

Had a small game against Tau yesterday (which I won!) and made a battle report. Check it out here http://www.thedarkcity.net/t8068-br-1-the-venomous-shadow-1000p-de-vs-tau#86674


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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 30 2013, 17:07

I guess single squad of Eldar Guardians embarked in Wave Serpent could win a game against that Tau army. You've defeated one of the worst Tau players in the world, congratz.
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