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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 19:09

@Mushkilla wrote:
Heavy rail rifles and rail guns are single shot weapons something our 5+ jink and or 5++ from flicker fields is very strong against.
My point is that if the plan is to stay out of range and snipe at the enemy, they are better equipped to do that to you than you are to do it to them.

I appreciate wanting to keep a positive outlook. The truth is that we're all better off figuring out how to overcome the imbalance against the Tau than bemoaning the fact that there is an imbalance; but I think you may be missing a point. A large part of the reason that threads like this one exist is because people need a bit of reassurance and solidarity, as well as advice.

'I am constantly getting stomped on by Tau! Is there a problem there, or do i just suck?' Since there is, in fact, a problem there, it's nice to be told that you're not alone, it isn't just you and you don't suck.

If you absolutely deny that there's a problem at all, you're basically saying 'Yes, it is you, and you do just suck.' I'm sure that's not your intention, as you seem like a really, really nice person, but the implication is that playing against Tau is not especially difficult and anyone who does find it difficult should probably not be playing 40K anyway, and entertain themselves instead by trying to catch flies with their tongue.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 21:57

@Barking Agatha wrote:
My point is that if the plan is to stay out of range and snipe at the enemy, they are better equipped to do that to you than you are to do it to them.
But your point is wrong, the tau have 2-3 ion accelerators, an ion accelerator without marker light support on average has a 25% chance of making a raider or a venom explode. That's no intimidating. They then have all their 36" weaponry (including markerlights) which becomes 30" weaponry against night shields. So that means all our splinter cannons and dark lances (which cause instant death to crisis and broadsides) out range them, combined with our 12" move against their 6" move, and we can decide when and where the fight happens.

@Barking Agatha wrote:
I appreciate wanting to keep a positive outlook. The truth is that we're all better off figuring out how to overcome the imbalance against the Tau than bemoaning the fact that there is an imbalance; but I think you may be missing a point. A large part of the reason that threads like this one exist is because people need a bit of reassurance and solidarity, as well as advice.
I'm not saying Tau isn't a hard match up. It sucks to have to work a lot harder for the win. But then again DE have never been an easy army. It's good to have an outlet for the frustration that we all encounter playing DE. Reassurance is important and that's one of the reason TDC is here. But this thread has gone beyond "reasurance" into a "sky is falling" discussion, which doesn't help anyone.

A perfect example is how you are taking Tau's "ranged advantage" over us completely out of context. What does Sabre DeC take away from that?

Quote :
And yeah the range of the Tau makes night shields almost moot
Which is and incorrect assessment of the reality of the situation because of your conjecture.

No one "sucks". You need to have a very good understanding of your army and the Tau army to be in with a reasonable chance at beating them, there's no denying that. But that's just the way it is, don't give up, keep practising and you will get to the stage where you will relish your games against Tau for the challenge that they are. Take comfort in the fact that it takes a lot more skill for you to beat him than it does for him to beat you and at the end of the day that will make you a better player.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Mon Sep 30 2013, 01:05

@Mushkilla wrote:
But this thread has gone beyond "reasurance" into a "sky is falling" discussion, which doesn't help anyone.
Has it? I don't see it.

@Mushkilla wrote:
A perfect example is how you are taking Tau's "ranged advantage" over us completely out of context. What does Sabre DeC take away from that?

Quote :
And yeah the range of the Tau makes night shields almost moot
Which is and incorrect assessment of the reality of the situation because of your conjecture.
I expect she gets that from her own experience, rather than from anything I say. As do I, by the way. It isn't 'conjecture', as you casually dismiss it; it is what I have actually experienced when playing against Tau.

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. You are beyond a doubt an extremely good 40K player, and kudos to you, and we can all learn an awful lot from your reports, but you do seem to have very little sympathy for other people's woes and even a smidgen of hostility. These are real experiences, not conjectures that we've made up just to be negative.

@Mushkilla wrote:
Take comfort in the fact that it takes a lot more skill for you to beat him than it does for him to beat you and at the end of the day that will make you a better player.
Didn't I say that, way back on the first page?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Mon Sep 30 2013, 09:41

@Sabre DeC wrote:
My biggest problem is that you get zero save against the markerlights.
Must confess to thinking the same thing. Allowing cover (but not armour or invulnerable) saves against markerlights would be both realistic and balancing. I can understand painting a target for others to home in on but what if you actually paint the wall/tree/friendly unit they are hiding behind? Or if they're moving so damn fast that you can't actually land the markerlight on them in the first place?

I think most people would agree that the Tau are currently the top dogs in terms of codex power. This would tone them down slightly and give some of the more fragile armies, who suffer worst from Tau firepower, more of a chance against them.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Mon Sep 30 2013, 11:08

Night Shields actually is fairly effective against Tau, since while they have some weapons with extreme range (most commonly the ion accelerators on Riptides, and you quite often see a Hammerhead which also has a huge range on its main gun), the majority of their firepower is actually medium range. Markerlights, missile pods (both standrd, smart and high yield), and pulse rifles all have ranges of 30-35'', while plasma and fusion weapons have an effective range between 24'' and 12''. NS may not let you outrange the Riptides, but it does allow you to stay out of the range of Broadsides (which are really more dangerous for our vehicles than Riptides, as they can put out more shots that can still penetrate out skimmers) and markerlights, not to mentions the tons of s5 and 6 Tau armies are typically able to shoot.

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 03:55

@Barking Agatha wrote:
I expect she gets that from her own experience, rather than from anything I say. As do I, by the way. It isn't 'conjecture', as you casually dismiss it; it is what I have actually experienced when playing against Tau.

Yes this is not something I have gathered from this website or even this thread but actually my experience from my games with my buddy. The night shields have been a point sink because of the number of shots he has that are above 24" (which I typically need to be within for my warriors to get shots. Blaster spam limits you to 18", and Dark Lances are only going to be around 10 to a list. That's great and all but if you stat it out, you'll only be hitting with 5 or 6 of those, then you'll only be wounding with 2 or 3 of those, and then he's either only going to shave off 9 shots from his firewarriors (3 guys dead) or saving out of 1 or 2 of the wounds on a vehicle with a disruption pod.

This isn't just me whining. This is legitimate frustration that no list I've tried has even scratched the Tau surface. And I have tried SEVERAL very VERY different lists.

To answer the previous inquiry, he typically is running Fire Warriors, Tetras, Remoras, Path finders, Crisis Suits, Rip Tide, and Hammer Head. (Not all of these at the same time. These are his favorite units that appear in various lists...)


Soooo......I was really hoping someone would get on here and say something like "No worries! If you take unit X every time it will be the bane of the Tau and you'll do much much better!"

Kind of like a Tau player could be told "Use marker lights to take out the cover saves and you'll win against Dark Eldar every time!"

Lol I didn't really expect any response like that but it was a long shot. (^_^) Other than that I've enjoyed learning different people's opinion on strengths and weaknesses in our army against the Tau.

Also Mushkilla, what are you talking about only 5 guns over 36" and only on riptides? The vehicles also have 60" guns, and I'm pretty sure the remoras do too. (Not to mention the networked market lights...)

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 09:32

@Barking Agatha wrote:
but you do seem to have very little sympathy for other people's woes and even a smidgen of hostility.
Sympathy is for the weak... we are Dark Eldar...

On a serious not, I know how hard can be with Dark Eldar. Whether you are new to the game, or a veteran who has just moved to a new shop were the quality of your opponent is a lot better, or fighting a codex you don't understand well. It's tough, but we are where we are, there are a few ways forward: pack away your models and wait for a new codex that may or may not help, never play against Tau players, or try to find out where your tactics/lists are falling short in what is one of our more challenging match ups.

There was a post on Dakka with a player complaining about Tau, and it turned out his opponent was not removing markerlight at the end of the turn, and letting all models in the army benefit from the tokens at the same time. Facing a whole army that ignores cover and is BS10 every turn is a reason to complain. Had people not asked him to explain in greater detail what was happening, he would have never known his opponent was a cheat.

@Sabre DeC wrote:
The night shields have been a point sink because of the number of shots he has that are above 24" (which I typically need to be within for my warriors to get shots. Blaster spam limits you to 18", and Dark Lances are only going to be around 10 to a list.
But that's a limitation of the particular list you are bringing.

@Sabre DeC wrote:
This is legitimate frustration that no list I've tried has even scratched the Tau surface. And I have tried SEVERAL very VERY different lists.
This is a problem, with Dark Eldar you can't just change your list around every game and expect to do better. You need to understand the limitations of every element of your army and the only way to do that is to play the same list again and again and again. Extreme changes won't teach you anything, Dark Eldar are very unforgiving in that regard. Give me a venom spam army, and I would probably lose terribly with it for a while before getting the hang of it as it's so different to what I run.

@Sabre DeC wrote:
To answer the previous inquiry, he typically is running Fire Warriors, Tetras, Remoras, Path finders, Crisis Suits, Rip Tide, and Hammer Head. (Not all of these at the same time. These are his favorite units that appear in various lists...)
So he tailors his list to your weaknesses and you expect it to be a fair game? Let me guess he doesn't take anything to deal with AV14 when he fights you? There's a reason people play take all comers lists, because it's more balanced, a tailored list is designed to crush a single type of opponent, it won't work in a tournament and is considered bad sportsmanship in most gaming clubs.

@Sabre DeC wrote:
Soooo......I was really hoping someone would get on here and say something like "No worries! If you take unit X every time it will be the bane of the Tau and you'll do much much better!"
There are not point and click units in the Dark Eldar army. Though the suggestion of one of the first posters in this thread comes pretty close (venoms with dual splinter cannons and nightshields do a number against Tau).

@Sabre DeC wrote:
Also Mushkilla, what are you talking about only 5 guns over 36" and only on riptides? The vehicles also have 60" guns,
Ripitides/hammerheads they are both 150-200pts and only have one 60" range gun each. The trade off of these weapons is they massively reduce his 36" range shooting, 200pts of missile broadsides is a lot more effective than any of those options once your within 36". There's a trade off, tau shooting above 60" is just not that cost effective.

@Sabre DeC wrote:
and I'm pretty sure the remoras do too. (Not to mention the networked market lights...)
Forgeworld is the epitome of imbalance, that's why it's banned in most tournaments (or severely limited).

I'll try and help as best I can, if you could answer these questions I would be grateful:

How many points do you play?
What's terrain like on your board? (Do you play with line of sight blockers, and is there a lot of area terrain?)
How does he normally win, objectives or tabling you?
What models do you have?
How many vehicles does he normally field?
Which version of the forge world rules is he using (there are many, with varying degrees of brokenness and he might not be using the latest one)?
How many markerlight shots does his tetra have and at what ballistic skill? (the answer to this will tell us which rules he is using).
Does he change his list against every opponent?

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 20:27

@Mushkilla wrote:
On a serious note, I know how hard can be with Dark Eldar. Whether you are new to the game, or a veteran who has just moved to a new shop were the quality of your opponent is a lot better, or fighting a codex you don't understand well. It's tough, but we are where we are, (...)
Yes, more of that; less of the 'Tau? Pshaw!' Smile

@Mushkilla wrote:
So he tailors his list to your weaknesses and you expect it to be a fair game? Let me guess he doesn't take anything to deal with AV14 when he fights you? There's a reason people play take all comers lists, because it's more balanced, a tailored list is designed to crush a single type of opponent, it won't work in a tournament and is considered bad sportsmanship in most gaming clubs.
We've been through that:

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@The Red King wrote:
He tailors his list after knowing who he's fighting? That's lousy sportsmanship in my opinion.
Not really. It's different if you're in a club, or you play in tournaments, but if you play casually with a small group of family and friends, it's kind of what you do. Of course you know who you're playing against because it's always the same one or two people.
I think you'll find that most of the people complaining about the Tau are in exactly that situation. It isn't uncommon. In fact, you could sum up the complaint thus: that the Tau can, easily, tailor their lists to our weaknesses knowing they are going to fight us, but we can't do the same to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 21:34

@Barking Agatha wrote:
It isn't uncommon. In fact, you could sum up the complaint thus: that the Tau can, easily, tailor their lists to our weaknesses knowing they are going to fight us, but we can't do the same to them.
Yup, tau are the masters of tailoring, that's for sure they have a counter for most core mechanics. My advice would be to play someone else and not waste time playing someone like that. You can beat tailored Tau lists but it's a lot of work, and even if you win you will feel exhausted, so not really worth doing more than once.

If you haven't played serpent spam though, you are in for a real treat if you think Tau is bad. Going second against that without any line of sight blockers is a nightmare.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 22:25

I hardly think the roommate deserves that. As far as the Tau player knows, he knows he's fighting you and you know you're fighting them, and you can both tailor your lists as you wish. What could be more fair? If the codices aren't balanced, that's not really his fault, is it.

You could ask him to make more balanced lists, but that puts you in a difficult position. Why should the Tau player, specifically, limit his own lists, when he's not asking anyone else to do so? This kind of thing goes back a long time. Jervis Johnson used to write volumes asking players not to abuse their codices and to play according to the 'spirit of the game', a phrase that was repeated ad nauseaum. It never really worked, because unless you hang out with Jervis at his gaming table, how are you supposed to guess what the 'spirit' of the game is? I have my own notion of it, but nothing gives me the authority to impose it on other people.

Here's an idea: mix it up. Ask to trade sides sometime; let him play with your army, and you play with his. Things look very different from the other side. Maybe he'll see it differently once he's experienced what an uphill struggle it is for you to fight his own army, and you'll get some insights into the difficulties that the Tau have. They don't have it all their own way!
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 23:00

I would agree with Mush, if the 'gentleman' is list tailoring to specific opponents I would highly suggest playing someone else. Around here (my area) tailoring little more than frowned upon.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Tue Oct 01 2013, 23:18

@psycheer wrote:
I would agree with Mush, if the 'gentleman' is list tailoring to specific opponents I would highly suggest playing someone else.  Around here (my area) tailoring little more than frowned upon.
'Oh yes, we used to be good friends. We did everything together. He was the best man at our wedding, and godfather to our children. He used to spend every Christmas at our house, and oh, how the children loved him! They used to call him 'uncle'. He lent us the money to get our new place, and then he donated a kidney when Bill nearly died in hospital. But, you know, then he started tailoring his WH40K lists to our armies, and that we could not forgive. He is no longer welcome at our home, and just the other day I tried to run him over in my car. Nearly got him, too.'
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Oct 02 2013, 22:26

@Barking Agatha wrote:
He is no longer welcome at our home, and just the other day I tried to run him over in my car. Nearly got him, too.'
Damn jink save! Stupid Tau players, so OP in Real Life.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 05:35

@Mushkilla wrote:


I'll try and help as best I can, if you could answer these questions I would be grateful:
How many points do you play? This changes game to game. Usually 1250, 1500, 1750, or 2000
What's terrain like on your board? (Do you play with line of sight blockers, and is there a lot of area terrain?) We have a lot of area terrain but not very much LoS blocking terrain...to my dismay.
How does he normally win, objectives or tabling you? He tables me...
What models do you have? This doesn't really matter because we're poor so we proxy whatever we want to field that's legal.
How many vehicles does he normally field? Normal warhammer 1 or 2 hammerhead/devilfish, and 6 piranhas. Forge world, he runs 4 Tetras and 4 Remoras as well.
Which version of the forge world rules is he using (there are many, with varying degrees of brokenness and he might not be using the latest one)? This I'm not sure of. I use the rules from the newest Forgeworld apocalypse book for my units.
How many markerlight shots does his tetra have and at what ballistic skill? (the answer to this will tell us which rules he is using). BS 3 heavy 4 marker lights
Does he change his list against every opponent? Yes we all do. The lists are usually "I'd like to try something new". We generally keep similar themes but change small things like unit sizes and HQs.


As far as not playing with him anymore, he's certainly not malicious about this and he tries to not cater to me specifically. He doesn't take things tailored to kill me but he does take things tailored to survive me...basically he tailors defensively. I take all comes lists every time. He likes to win....

Agatha hits it on the nose with asking him to nerf himself without us doing the same. I'd feel like a total dick. I'm not pissed at this guy specifically. I'm not really pissed at all. I was really just frustrated at how easy it is for Tau to answer us on every single front if they know what they're going up against. Really, they can tailor to our whole army in a single list so they don't even need to know our specific build. That's what I was mainly posting about initially.

I hope I didn't come across as whining. I'm trying to learn this army but it is slow going. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to take me under your wing.

Mush and Agatha specifically thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 13:57

Take out their archers. Then meet them in the middle.
Wallace is always right.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 16:49

My tau opponet is stuck in the old mindset, hell it took me many games to convince him to use the jink saves to his advantage. BUt because of that he plays very firewarrior heavy, but doesn't see the new hq types as worth it, so he only has the hq suit. Because of this, he isnt' that hard to defeat.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 17:35

@Sabre DeC wrote:


What's terrain like on your board? (Do you play with line of sight blockers, and is there a lot of area terrain?) We have a lot of area terrain but not very much LoS blocking terrain...to my dismay.

How does he normally win, objectives or tabling you? He tables me...
This here is your main problem. Tables should have atleast 5 LoS blocking of varying degrees (you can get away with 3, but it hurts) and atleast a huge one in the middle. Take a look at some of the recent NOVA and Adepticon tables, and you will get the picture (orThis lovely article). This limits their line of sight and stops them from being able to bring the full power of their army apon you. It also allows your assaulty units to get close while being largely unmolested. It is how 40k should be played.

As for list tailoring. I will say that in my community it is largely frowned apon as well. I mean I understand what people say, that the opponent should know what he is facing, but the game doesnt lend itself to balance like that. Take for example us. DE are made to be fast and fragile, so its against their own astetics to have an AV13~AV14 vehicle. Now look at the different special weapons an SM variant can take. Plasma, Melta, Flamer, Grav. Ok, so no high AV??? Dont need their melta. Our armor saves are 5+??? Grav is out of the question. So that leaves flamer and plasma. We have at most AV11, so Plasma wins mostly, with flamers coming in a close second at just flat out annhilating our troops.

Now look at us. So we are playing against SM, so what do we bring thats effective against them??? More AP3??? Ok, but then we lose out on our AT, so lets just stick with splinterfire against them. Incubi??? Ok, but now we need a way to get the incubi into combat, and that plasma they took to kill our tanks works wonderfully against incubi... So what do we take to tailor to SM???

This is the problem. Armies arent made to allow tailoring. You must be prepared for everything in a normal gaming eviroment. Take for example you go to a store for a pick up game. You dont know what you are going to face, so you throw some AI, AT, and high AP weapons in the mix. You will do better than someone who just takes all AI and runs into a all tank list. its just how the game works.

So yes, if you want, let your friend keep tailoring against you. Just know that it will be an uphill battle for you as you dont have the options other armies do to get out of that list tailoring.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 20:51

I can't just say "Hey dude...I'm not gonna play you anymore." I mean...he's my roommate. (>_<)

I guess really there's not much option of me beating him....he knows I will always play DE and he only plays Tau. So either he builds a list to let me win, or he stomps my ass. I guess I was hoping that it was just my playing that needed work and I could learn to win even against all the odds stacked against me. But based on what everyone is saying, (that the fact that we know each other's armies, and that Tau can tailor but DE cannot) in addition to the terrain problems... (We typically place terrain in turn and I place as much LoS blocking stuff I can and he places as little as possible...) it seems like this just isn't something that is doable without potentially pissing him off. I do think he plays a little dick-ish because he NEEDS to win so bad...(he has an inferiority complex)...but I don't have that need.

I enjoy winning but not at that cost. I guess I'll just deal with the losses to him as they come up, but I won't go looking for games with him anymore. I'll just stick to playing with my other friends and my local store as I can. It does make me feel better that it's not just me sucking ass at the game.

I play Fantasy as well and run WoC. I wreck face with them every time. However they are pretty much the Necrons of WHFB. Pretty point and shoot. So I came into 40k looking to develop as a player. I chose an army that seemed more difficult...and then lost 12 times consecutively lol.

I've actually got a couple of wins under my belt now, but the Tau fights were always like...two turns before I was tabled and he hadn't lost a single unit. It was very discouraging. I came here to find out if it was absolutely abysmal understanding of the army, the weakness of the Dark Eldar, my friend's excellent understanding of HIS army, or if it was the Tau strength all by itself.

My friend is a fantastic player, (even if he is a little shady sometimes because he's too competitive) but I never thought he was table-me-turn-two-no-losses-ever-even-after-several-rematches better than me. So I thank you gentlemen for that affirmation.

Mushkilla and Barking Agatha you guys are fantastic and have really helped me consider a bunch of things I hadn't thought of before. Everyone else who has participated in this discussion (including Shadows Refuge) was also extremely helpful. I'm pretty much decided that to fight Tau I need to stick with as many shots as possible in my ranged units, and assault the crap out of them with characters in the lead with shadow fields (haemies probably).

I do have a question though...why do you think Forge World is broken and unbalanced? The Tantalus and Reapers are great for us....

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Nighthawk
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Join date : 2012-10-12

PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Oct 03 2013, 22:16

There was a time that I played at a particular gaming store, and there were 6 different regulars there who all had Necron Flying Circus armies, which just tore up my Dark Eldar. One day, I showed up with a Salamanders drop pod army with a ton of heavy flamers and twin-linked meltas, and nobody wanted to play me. After that, I didn't see many Flying Circus armies.

I guess what I'm saying is, since you proxy a bunch of stuff already, tailor an Eldar army with a bunch of Wave Serpents and proxy the whole thing, and then play him. Or heck, just take some Eldar allies with a bunch of Wave Serpents, or have the Eldar be the primary and take DE allies. You want a plug-and-play unit to defeat his Tau? I believe you'll find it in the Eldar codex. Smile

@Sabre DeC wrote:

I do have a question though...why do you think Forge World is broken and unbalanced? The Tantalus and Reapers are great for us....
There are different levels of broken, and we're on the short end of that stick.
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Por'El Lyi'ot
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 01:14

Just thinking outside of the box here: have you considered making some sort of campaign, or maybe fighting smaller "Combat Patrol" missions? It seems like altering the "rules" of the game would be fun, and it would give you an excuse to create non-optimal lists (especially if you could get someone else involved.) Personally, I've always thought that the "Rules of Engagement" supplement was the hands-down best way to play 40K, what with each player potentially having different (secret) win conditions.
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commandersasha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 01:24

It's a shame though, all this powergaming. Some ask what the big deal is, why get so angry with Matt Ward's GK being overpowered, or Cruddace creating named characters for Tyranids, but I really believe that the rules and codex writers of games have a responsibility to their fans, and that GW has played very loose with us.
Had the Tau codex been just a little better balanced with other codecii, we would not be having to turn to Allies or Forgeworld, or to tailoring, or to guilty asking our friends to not use their new toys.

Fortunately, I have never been accused of powergaming, as my taste in armies always seems to be against the power curve: post-Cruddace 'Nids, DE in 6th...a Lilith crew in Malifaux when everyone else had discovered Lord Chompy-bits...and now I've just bought a load of Y-wings for FFG's X-Wing game... Clearly I just enjoy losing or something! Anybody want to stop on Old Kent Road? I have a hotel...
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Por'El Lyi'ot
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 01:38

To be fair, I'd like to think there's a difference between "powergaming" and "a well written codex." The Tau have, I think, one of the best written codices in the game. With the exception of Aun'Shi and maybe railgun-totting Broadsides, every unit is useful and brings something unique to the table. That fact shouldn't be "overpowered" (which unfortunately, it is); that should be standard.
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Por'vre Tier
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 07:13

I'm sure it's a common suggestion, however I'll throw in my two cents from my own experiences playing against Dark Eldar as Tau.

Splinter Cannons are the bane of my existence.  I can only thank the Aun that I prefer vehicle heavy lists anyway, as I'm frightened to put any basic infantry on the board until I absolutely have to.  Fire Warriors and Pathfinders tend to crumble under Splinter fire from multiple Venoms, and my own Kroot only fair better because I outflank them for when there are less Splinter weapons about (aiming to take back-field objectives).

Close Combat rarely bothers me.  I don't personally play a Gunline, and keep all elements mobile, however even stationary, Supporting Fire is often enough that Wych charges are rarely successful.  It's a shame, as I love the Wych models, however Dark Eldar CC infantry (of course excluding Incubi and the like) are too fragile to be a significant threat.  

That said, working alongside Blasterborn partial Wych squads with Haywire Grenades make instant scrap-metal of any of my vehicles.  This would be less worrisome to a Gunline, however as a mech player, these units quickly destroy my Devilfish and Hammerheads, leaving my Fire Warriors to bear the brunt of Splinter fire.

Incubi on the other hand, when with an Archon, reap havoc to any Battlesuit units they catch up with.  Naturally, XV8s are hard to catch in be first place, however Dark Eldar are very good (in my experience) at cornering both units and entire armies.  In many-a-case I have enacted fighting retreats with my XV8s from one threat only to see another scoot in behind me and see them trapped!  What I'm saying is - don't underestimate your maneuverability!  Speed, if you ask me, is the big thing Dark Eldar have over Tau.  We're tougher than you.  Our guns are bigger than yours.  If you assault us, we'll shoot you down on your way.  But; we can't outrun you.  Believe me - as a strong proponent of mobile Tau, I try on a weekly basis.  Dark Eldar are excellent at isolating and destroying elements before blending into the shadows one more.  If you can do this, any flaws in a Tau formation (static or otherwise) will be exposed completely.

EDIT:  Also, I find the consensus that LoS Blocking terrain is a bad thing for Tau players confusing.  Personally, I play by the rule-of-thumb 'more terrain is better', as really, 40K should be played with as exciting boards as possible.  However; a while ago I modelled up some items for a damaged Tau outpost, which included four sections of tall walls placed centre-field (tall enough to block LoS to anything short of a flyer).  After a couple of games using these, me and my Dark Eldar opponent agreed that we should stop using the walls, as they gave such an unfair advantage to my Jump-Shoot-Jumping battlesuits.  It was well-founded too, as my suits were essentially invulnerable half of the game, and still putting out full fire power.  Also, large terrain is excellent for Hammerheads, as most of the hull is often shielded (and getting superb cover), with the gun having clear view.

I hope these comments were useful (even if they may be repetitive to experienced Dark Eldar tacticians).

All the best in your future Slave Raids!

Regards,
Por'vre Tier.

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 17:22

@Por'vre Tier wrote:
I'm sure it's a common suggestion, however I'll throw in my two cents from my own experiences playing against Dark Eldar as Tau.

This was extremely enlightening and I want to thank you for it! It was also affirming for me as I've never managed to get a successful assault off against Tau. I'll try spamming splinter cannons I think. I've just never heard of anyone out gunning Tau when they gun line.

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I paint miniatures professionally...and I rawk face at it. Check out the gallery!

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Oct 04 2013, 17:51

@Sabre DeC wrote:
I'll try spamming splinter cannons I think. I've just never heard of anyone out gunning Tau when they gun line.
Tau Gunline and Venomspam really comes down to dice rolls, but why you dont hear about it is because your standard missilesuit has a 88% chance to have an effect on a venom, while a venom only takes around a wound from said suit. add in that you can get more suits than venoms, a head on match really is in their favor.

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