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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Sep 13 2013, 21:20

@Sabre DeC wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
It beats just standing there while being shot at and pretending that terrain matters.
Exactly my thoughts...I just don't know what to do until we get a book....
Well, as I said, if I had it to do over again I would just rush everything up the right side and try to take out those Broadsides and one Riptide with no regard for personal safety. If it works, great, and if it doesn't, at least it's quick! My first mistake was following the advice of people who have told me to 'make use of cover and LoS blocking terrain', and then standing there and going 'Hang on a minute, they all do what?' because their smart missile systems alone are enough to kill your whole army, unless you start killing them instead, and quickly.

Getting the initiative sometime might be nice too, just so that, you know, half my army isn't already dead before I get to play. Wink

I wouldn't place too many hopes on a new book though. I'm sure that it will bring us up to speed with the current edition, but I doubt that it will come up with any magic changes. Smile

@Clively
I guess my list is weak, but I'm just trying to follow the advice I've been given here about 'Target Saturation' with the miniatures that I have. 2 x 3 bikes instead of 1 x 6 bikes are two targets instead of one, and I don't see how they do any less damage. Likewise, putting all your blasters in a single basket means that they can all be taken out with one shot. And why both a Cronos and a Talos? Because they (and the grotesques) are about the only thing that I have that can be shot at by a single Tau unit and not necessarily die. They actually have to shoot at them with more than one unit, which are shots that are not killing my warriors, wyches, trueborn, and so on.

My mistake was not quite realising that each individual Broadsides can fire at a different target, which counters the 'Target Saturation' idea, not to mention that they can do so while ignoring Cover and LoS. Bloody Tau have an answer for everything.

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Sep 13 2013, 22:29

"Pooey" certainly had no shortage of high target priority stuff, aye? I am looking forward to my next bang up with Tau. I will keep the beasts, buff my reavers and throw to grot squads as I try a mad rush at one side first. One day, I will find a way to win with my pointy ears but until then I enjoy the journey

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Sep 13 2013, 23:40

Beasts sound good. I have an idea for Razorwing flocks that might look cool.

I've won games, against Marines, and Chaos, and even Tau. It just gets exhausting after a while to always have the odds stacked so heavily against you. It's especially disagreeable if the Tau player turns out to be such a prick about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 14 2013, 00:24

Didn't you know all tau players have fish breath? It's so that the rest of the 40k community can easily single them out for the villainy that they are. Wink

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 14 2013, 03:26

@Mushkilla wrote:
Didn't you know all tau players have fish breath? It's so that the rest of the 40k community can easily single them out for the villainy that they are. Wink
I know a Tau player whose breath is sweet like apricots and rum, with just a hint of cardamom; his eyes twinkle with good nature and he gives you a slightly embarassed smile as he rolls a dozen dice knowing that he only needs one of them to hit, as if to say 'Sorry, I know how unfair this is; let me try to make it up to you with charm.'

This person was not like that, nor did his breath smell of fish. It was very distinctively poo.
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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 14 2013, 07:06

I am literally laughing so hard I'm crying gentlemen. Thank you for that. Thank you very much.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 14 2013, 08:04

Sorry Sabre, I was actually meaning from the massive amounts of fire warrior shots, and you are right. My local tau players take less of them and a lot more of the cheese, hmm?! Haven't tried a Reaper yet but want one as well as the tantalus.

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Mon Sep 16 2013, 00:47

Basically a 50/50 shot for an almost guaranteed 2 glances? Yes please. (Yes I realize I'm exaggerating a bit...)

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 18 2013, 20:52

I have a reaper and so far in all games its featured it has been the must kill unit for my opponent whilst dealing silly damage out. last game it took out longstrike first turn other hammer head 2nd turn and a fire warrior squad in each of the next 2 turns. lucky dice i suppose lol.

ive not lost to tau yet, in all the games ive ignored rip tide, taken crises suits and anything with marker lights first whilst staying out of range of fire warriors, trick is patience and make sure the thing you shoot at first dies.

In my 1.5k list which is our standard size game, i have a Dissie ravager and a lance one, the dissie ravager is off the chart in its effectiveness against tau it needs NS and FF to realise its full potential. i use 2 wych squads in venoms to hunt tanks in these games, grots hemo and archon to scare the hell out of deep strikes and apply mid/late game pressure 2 kabel gun boats SC with dissies, 9 reavers. each tau player ive played cant make their minds up which threat hurts the most
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 18 2013, 23:25

Tight list Baster! I think my overreliance on lance ravagers may have been exposed by this insightful anecdote.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 22 2013, 00:22

My answer to Tau from the very few games I played against them before my hiatus was a distraction tactic; that is to say, have a very nasty unit (preferrably an assault unit, I had Vect + Incubi) charging up (be careful about that though) and being noticeable while the rest of your army gets into position to unleash a turn 2/3 firestorm and shred their biggest threats, leaving just the insignificant things behind. Can't do much about Riptides, though, but they don't seem to do as much as they're hyped about.

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 25 2013, 11:22

I've found only one effective solution (i.e not depending heavily on terrain, initiative and ability to confuse and distract your opponent):

Seer in full pack of beasts, with Baron attached. Hardcore mode: go for Eldar as main army and attach two seers, 1.5x'ing you chance of getting fortune.

Wave Serpents also help a lot in dealing with pathfinders squads. And those pesky Krootz. But here we come to question: wouldn't going full Eldar be much more effective?

It looks like we badly need a codex upgrade.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 25 2013, 11:49

@Hijallo wrote:
I've found only one effective solution (i.e not depending heavily on terrain, initiative and ability to confuse and distract your opponent):

Seer in full pack of beasts, with Baron attached. Hardcore mode: go for Eldar as main army and attach two seers, 1.5x'ing you chance of getting fortune.

Wave Serpents also help a lot in dealing with pathfinders squads. And those pesky Krootz. But here we come to question: wouldn't going full Eldar be much more effective?

It looks like we badly need a codex upgrade.
I'm toying with some Dark Eldar lists with Eldar allies for Throne of Skulls at the moment and one option I've come up with includes a large beast pack, the Baron and a Jetseer. Hopefully try it out tonight and see what happens. I must confess though, every time I look at my lists I tend to think that I could replace my Dark Eldar units with Eldar units and it would be a stronger list. I'm sticking to my guns though and it will be a DE army at Warhammer World!

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 25 2013, 11:55

Well, that's an obvious combo. If only we could pay however much for guaranteed fortune instead of relying on 50% chance...
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Wed Sep 25 2013, 21:19

I hasn`t played them yet, but in the 5th edition they wipe out me every game.

I read they codex and was scared enouth not to play against them. Could we be allies?

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Sep 26 2013, 07:14

I just typed a big post full of grammatical mistakes before even realized the poster before is from my country =)

Basically, 4E version was underpowered (they've had some neat stuff in IA, but that's true for every faction). This one is overpowered. Next one might be balanced. Tau have some inherent weaknesses, but their current codex has 1000 and 1 way to circumvent them or make irrelevant (we're terrible at assault? Hey, 6E is an edition of shooting and noone will ever bring an assault unit to the table! And if some idiot would, we have neat pretty cool overwatch! Oh, our Ld is terrible - no worries, your Big Brother Ethereal would make you as good as Necrons for 50 points! ah, and he'll buff your Overwatch too)
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Thu Sep 26 2013, 19:54

I think the biggest issue is that the edition heavily favour shooting, to the point where most people have completely decried melee armies and don't use any melee units. Tau have alwasy been one of the best, if not the best, shooting army, but they are absolutely terrible in melee. Even the overwatch bonus doesn't save them, just make the enemy maybe take some extra casualities, unless they eighter have several full units of plasma-carrying suits just standing behind their Firewarriors, or you charge them with Wytches (or anything else wit both a low save and a low modelcount). The problem is, since nobody uses melee units, or at most uses one that can be easily focused down by the Tau, you're getting into a shooting match with an army that is designed to excell at shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Fri Sep 27 2013, 05:28

Oh boy do I agree with you completely Nomic. I've pretty much put my wyches to tank hunting only and try to out gun them. Very hard to do. Great post.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 28 2013, 17:28

Unfortunately, our only assault unit which could get to Tau is full Beasts pack. Raiders are too fragile, and with that ignore cover thingy they will be shot down really fast. Or just drowned in a volume of fire. Footslogging units are too clumsy, i doubt even Ork Green Deathwave could reach Tau deployment. Beasts, on the contrary, have enough wounds to withstand small arms fire (5W flocks are awesome! ^) ) OR invulns against low-ap weaponry. And even characters to mix-and-match through LoS! And WWP is nerfed to the ground, thanks M. Ward. (even if we could charge out of WWP they still have Interceptors. However, since noone even takes melee, all-assault from WWP might suddenly be viable - it doesn't matter than half of your army will not survive enemy shooting phase, his whole army will not survive your assault phase)

but fortuned beast brick have been discussed already. If you get this things moving (i.e: you're either going first or have a good piece of LoS blocking terrain, and don't roll 6,6 on your psychic test) it will probably wreck Tau face.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sat Sep 28 2013, 18:16

I would say grots and reavers have a good chance of getting into assault with Tau. If you get the threat saturation right and are careful of supporting fire it's not that bad. Tau are 36" range across the board so you can pick away at them quite well, especially with night shields. The big thing is the terrain set up, if you're playing on planet bowling ball you're going to have a tough time.

The way to beat Tau is to stay out of range until you are ready to strike hard and fast. You lose to Tau by going into range of a lot of their units at once without adequate threat saturation.

I personally find Eldar wave serpent heavy lists to be a harder match up.

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 01:14

@Barking Agatha wrote:
I know a Tau player whose breath is sweet like apricots and rum, with just a hint of cardamom; his eyes twinkle with good nature and he gives you a slightly embarassed smile as he rolls a dozen dice knowing that he only needs one of them to hit, as if to say 'Sorry, I know how unfair this is; let me try to make it up to you with charm.'
I gotta say, I hope I'm this kind of tau player. I mean, I definitely brush my teeth.

Man, that list is a nasty mixture of repetitive and optimized. (Aren't they all?) Fish Breath definitely played to the tau strengths, even if he did it in an unimaginative way. He forewent a Fire Warrior firebase, opting instead to protect his scant Troop choices in expensive transports (did they have SMS, too?), while pummeling you with Broadsides and Riptides. The commander is, unfortunately, legal; Tau Signature Systems don't count toward XV carrying capacity.

I'd say "kill the Pathfinders!", but I suspect they're actually a distraction: his SMS allowed him make the most of his thin markerlight support, bumping BS instead of having to invest in ignoring cover. I mean, this list is terrible against heavy armor, but it's designed to ignore cover in overwhelming barrages. Which is clearly something you know, and I'm just uselessly talking. Sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 06:18

@Por'El Lyi'ot wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
I know a Tau player whose breath is sweet like apricots and rum, with just a hint of cardamom; his eyes twinkle with good nature and he gives you a slightly embarassed smile as he rolls a dozen dice knowing that he only needs one of them to hit, as if to say 'Sorry, I know how unfair this is; let me try to make it up to you with charm.'
I gotta say, I hope I'm this kind of tau player. I mean, I definitely brush my teeth.
I'm sure that your breath is delightful Smile

@Por'El Lyi'ot wrote:
Man, that list is a nasty mixture of repetitive and optimized. (Aren't they all?) Fish Breath definitely played to the tau strengths, even if he did it in an unimaginative way. He forewent a Fire Warrior firebase, opting instead to protect his scant Troop choices in expensive transports (did they have SMS, too?), while pummeling you with Broadsides and Riptides. The commander is, unfortunately, legal; Tau Signature Systems don't count toward XV carrying capacity.

I'd say "kill the Pathfinders!", but I suspect they're actually a distraction: his SMS allowed him make the most of his thin markerlight support, bumping BS instead of having to invest in ignoring cover. I mean, this list is terrible against heavy armor, but it's designed to ignore cover in overwhelming barrages. Which is clearly something you know, and I'm just uselessly talking. Sorry.
No, it's all right, you may agree with me as often as you like! Wink I'm sure that he wouldn't use that same list against just anyone. If he were playing against Space Meringues, for example, it would probably be quite different.

@Mushkilla wrote:
I would say grots and reavers have a good chance of getting into assault with Tau. If you get the threat saturation right and are careful of supporting fire it's not that bad. Tau are 36" range across the board so you can pick away at them quite well, especially with night shields. The big thing is the terrain set up, if you're playing on planet bowling ball you're going to have a tough time.

The way to beat Tau is to stay out of range until you are ready to strike hard and fast. You lose to Tau by going into range of a lot of their units at once without adequate threat saturation
Except presumably the Tau player knows that. If you were playing the Tau side against one of your own lists, would you let them pick away at you? Battlesuits and Riptides can move into range (pre-measuring, of course), shoot, and move back out of your range with their assault move.

Also, they are not 36" range across the board, we are. They have Heavy Rail Rifles and Ion Cannon (60" range) and Ion Accelerators and Railguns (72"), and they're sure to bring at least half a dozen of them (all of them with Target Lock on). While you're picking away at them they are also picking away at you, and they are much better at it.
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 11:44

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Except presumably the Tau player knows that. If you were playing the Tau side against one of your own lists, would you let them pick away at you? Battlesuits and Riptides can move into range (pre-measuring, of course), shoot, and move back out of your range with their assault move.

Also, they are not 36" range across the board, we are. They have Heavy Rail Rifles and Ion Cannon (60" range) and Ion Accelerators and Railguns (72"), and they're sure to bring at least half a dozen of them (all of them with Target Lock on). While you're picking away at them they are also picking away at you, and they are much better at it.
No but their S7 spam and markerlights are resticted to 36" and in some cases 36" + 6" movement, and that's what matters. Heavy rail rifles and rail guns are single shot weapons something our 5+ jink and or 5++ from flicker fields is very strong against. That leaves Ion accelerators and Ion cannons, ion accelerators are on a BS3 platform without marker light support, the only riptide that will  be re-rolling to hit and ignoring cover will be the one teamed up in the "Big brothers" combo with the commander. So we are much better at picking away at them, especially with night shields, but more importantly with our 12" movement advantage. Move into 36" range of some broadsides, and make sure that the one or two that you are in range of die, and he will only be able to snap fire back. Do it with night shields, and they won't be able to even snap fire back.

We can still pick the time and place to fight against Tau. Which in my experience is the only edge we need. Is it an easy match up? No. But it's not as indomitable as everyone makes it out to be. I'm telling you going second against serpent spam is a lot worse! Very Happy

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Sabre DeC
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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 17:20

My biggest problem is that you get zero save against the markerlights. I think you should be able to duck out of the way of the damn things. Albeit I suppose then you'd get a save against our haywire stuff too...groan I just logic-ed myself...hate that. And yeah the range of the Tau makes night shields almost moot. 6" off 60" is still pretty much the whole board. Best I've done so far is sweeping one side with assault led by the baron, duke, and or Archons so the first 47 shots have to go through shadow fields....

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PostSubject: Re: Screw the Tau...   Sun Sep 29 2013, 18:49

@Sabre DeC wrote:
And yeah the range of the Tau makes night shields almost moot. 6" off 60" is still pretty much the whole board.
A S7 AP2 Heavy 3 weapon on a BS3 model is not scary. Each one of those weapons is on a platform that costs 200+ points, and dies to poison like anything else. The more riptides the Tau player brings the better it is for us, as it means less fire power when we close in on them. The most weapons with over 36" range you will see in a Tau list is five (and that's if they bring five riptides by allying with farsight enclave). That means he's not going to have much else. Most Tau lists will have 2-3 weapons with a range greater than 36", so I fail to see how night shields are moot.

Did you read these?

BR21: The Black Buzzards VS New Tau -1500pts
BR22: The Black Buzzards VS Tau (Rematch) -1500pts
BR23: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mech/Riptide - 1500pts
BR25: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mass Broadsides - 1500pts
BR28: Kabal of the Bitter Envy VS Tau Mobile - 1000pts

What sort of Tau lists are you struggling against?

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