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 Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc

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wolffgard
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Join date : 2011-12-19
Location : Oslo, Norway

PostSubject: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 08:22

Greetings fellow Arcons!

It has been a while since I posted, and played Dark Eldar (DE). I am attending a large tournament in September, and have started to evaluate my options. I have a Tyranid army, a Space Marines Army and my beloved DE army.

One year ago I attended the same tournament and came in #2 with my DE MSU list. The list was somewhat like this:
Arcon with Blaster
2 X 5 Warriors in two Venoms
2 X 5 Wyches with Haywire in two Raiders
2 X 5 Warriors in two Raiders
3 X 4 Blaster born in three Venoms
2 X Ravagers
1 X Razorwing

This is “of course” my 5th addition list. But last September, when the new rules book had been out for only a couple of moths, few players and armies had adapted (in that tournament anyway). Of course the Necron “flying circus” won, and almost all armies attending had flying stuff, but still – we where learning.
Last night I played against a nasty CSM army. 20 Cultists and 2 X 10 Marines hiding behind a defence line (2+ cover save when the units goes to ground), 2 X 3 Oblits, Defiler, a Hell Talon and 2 Drakes. I did all right turn 1 – 2, but then – I felt like I had brought a knife to a gun fight (usually my opponent feels the same). I played:
Arcon with Blaster
2 X 5 Warriors in two Venoms
2 X 5 Wyches with Haywire in two Raiders
2 X 5 Warriors in two Raiders
3 X 4 Blaster born in three Venoms
3 X Ravagers
1 X 5 Scourges with two splinter cannons

A shift in the game (in Norway anyway)
The Drakes “hit my” Skimmers, flamed skimmers and grounded troops. I fired all available lances and blasters but the dice goods where punishing me (felt like that anyway). I lost heavy! I took out most of the Oblits and the Defiler, but he safe guarded his objectives and decimated my troops holding my own objectives. 2+ cover save behind a stretched defence line, I just could not inflict enough wounds.
I see a shift in army construction. CSM Hell Drakes are so powerful. So is the Imperial Guard Vendetta list and all the nice flyers, toys and tools, both the Tau and Eldar deploy.

How do we cope with these flyer lists? Razorwing – Two dark Lances. With my luck I hit with one of them. And then a 4+ to glance ore penetrate. Nor much threat. Voidraven Bomber, better Lance, more expensive (when tooled a little) and still only two shots.

This is not meant as a rant. But since the Dark Eldar was one of the last Codex’s coming before 6th I find it strange that we do not have better AA abilities. Sure, I can ally, but currently I do not have the time to build and paint new models 8and in all honesty – a balanced army should be provided with some tools for the trades).
Does anyone have any suggestion on how we can deal with “a flying circus”? Please comment. I love my Dark Eldar but feel I have been asleep and woken to a nightmare;)
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 09:20

Firstly, Helldrakes are ridiculously good against us. They will almost always destroy one unit every turn, usually two and sometimes even three (due to an exploding vehicle killing the passengers).

Our AA options are pretty poor. Essentially we have two fragile flyers that have little chance of killing a Helldrake but will die easily to it.

Unfortunately, we are therefore forced to call upon our allies for AA. I experimented with an Eldar Crimson Hunter but found it to be just as fragile as our own flyers, although it was sometimes able to take a flyer with it.

I then tried Dark Reapers with a Farseer and a quadgun and that is now my go to choice. The Exarch firing 5 twin-linked, S7 shots at BS5 is pretty much guaranteed to hit 5 times, needing 4+ to damage the Helldrake so you have a reasonable chance of destroying it when it arrives (although sadly it still gets to Vector Strike something even if you do). In your shooting phase, another 2 shots from the Exarch's missile launcher with Flakk together with a few krak missiles from the rest of the squad, all twin-linked by the Farseer, will usually finish it off, with the added advantage of having superb firepower available to destroy other targets for the rest of the battle.

Eldar Wave Serpents also offer decent AA as the twin-linked scatter laser will usually manage at least one hit, allowing the Serpent Shield and Shuriken Cannon to also be twin-linked, which can put a decent number of S6 and 7 shots on a flyer.

I know you said you don't want to use allies but there really is very little in our own list that is of any use against flyers. Only thing I have used is a Disintegrator Ravager firing into the rear of a Helldrake but even that needed an allied Farseer to give it twin-linked.

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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 10:27

If you are considering allies then I tend to recommend Eldar Warp Spiders. If you get a squad of 10 then you can easily get 20 S7 shots on the rear armour, and with guide you have a pretty good chance of taking down even a heldrake.

Otherwise you need either a lot of lances, ignore the flyers and play for objectives or some lucky haywire throws from your wyches (it can work!). I'm going to try to do 4x5 Haywire Wyches in Venoms and see how that goes. Not too many flyers in my meta though, just Nids and we can deal with them the old fashion way.
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wolffgard
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 10:48

Thank you fore valuable insight and thoughts.
As feared, I have been out of the ”meta game” to long obviously, building gaming boards and a fantasy army. Bad excuse, but an explanation.
COUNT ADHEMAR
Eldar Dark reapers; The problem with the Quad gun is that it is an “easy target”. With Oblits and other long range shooting it is pretty easy to take down with its T7 and 3Sv. When I use the Rrazorwing I open fire with two Venoms and the AA gun is gone. Another problem is that the Eldar unit proposed is very expensive, and with lists deploying two Helldrakes they will certainly be flamed and removed as casualties turn two (my opponent use com relays to make sure all three flyers enter play turn two). Of cores they are good against other targets, but the points reduce the all over efficiency of a MSU list. But then again, maybe it is time to rethink my approach to my de army. But still a good advice, as our options is limited - thank you.
FUHRMAAJ
Warp Spiders; one of my regular opponents have been playing Warwalkers and Warpspiders for several years. They seem to work very well. Again one face the same problems, should they arrive at the perfect moment and take one Sheldrake down, they will for sure be flamed next turn. And then it is the cost in points and the performance of the remaining MSU list as described above. But still a good thought, thank you fore your comment.

I am facing the same opponent next Sunday. I think I will try a different strategy, ignore them, moving closer ”behind” its 90 degree turn, limiting the impact to flamers, and getting within splinter rifle distance going after his troops instead. But still are very uncertain if I can avoid being shot to peaces.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 11:10

wolffgard wrote:
I am facing the same opponent next Sunday. I think I will try a different strategy, ignore them, moving closer ”behind” its 90 degree turn, limiting the impact to flamers, and getting within splinter rifle distance going after his troops instead. But still are very uncertain if I can avoid being shot to peaces.
Just remember that those blasted Helldrakes have a 360 degree arc of fire (as if they weren't hard enough to deal with already). Getting behind them will prevent a vector strike but you may still be shot at if in range.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 13:11

I still play my 5th ed list mostly, its changed abit but not much.
Few tweaks here and there. But I still kick ass with it. I have not lost to a flyer yet, well I have lost to a list with flyers but that was not due to the flyer, but due to my own mistakes.

Its just less miniatures on the board for the oponent to play, and tbh with how the turnement tables are looking it just gives you the chance to table them easier.

Movement is key against flyers, and you have to be thinking from the start how to limit damage with movement and how to force them to fly of the table straigth away. And with all the skimmers in a MSU list that should not be a problem.

In my Eldar army that I am considering bring to the next turnement if I get it painted, I dont have any anti air there either. I just dont see there reasons for it yet.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Fri Aug 23 2013, 14:07

Out of interest, how do you deal with triple Helldrakes, Necron Scythe spam etc?

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Mon Aug 26 2013, 08:41

Count Adhemar wrote:
Out of interest, how do you deal with triple Helldrakes, Necron Scythe spam etc?
I have yet just to face 2x Helldrakes, 3x Necron Scythe in a list. I think 3x Helldrakes is to much to be comeptitive imo.

I have usualy been hit by them on the first turn. However on turn two I have without problem moved to avoid getting shot by most of them. The rest I have snapshot down. Even with snapshot I can take 1-2 a turn. I still got around 20-25 lances.

There is also the issue that I have taken out most of whats on the board if I face a flyer spam. So I dont need to focus on anything but the flyers at that time. That gives them abit of a problem aswell, as they cant fly out of the board, but needs to stay as much on it as possible.

Also I run Eldar Allied these days. and Wave serpents are just loving to take out flyers Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Mon Aug 26 2013, 09:32

Would you mind sharing your list? What sort of points level are you playing?

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Mon Aug 26 2013, 09:59

Count Adhemar wrote:
Would you mind sharing your list? What sort of points level are you playing?
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t7636-1850pts-competitive-de-e My current list I am testing

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t4800-darklight-goes-to-armageddon My usual turnement list

I play 1750 and 1850 for the most part

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ketamine
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PostSubject: Re: Hell Drakes, Vendettas, Defence lines etc   Tue Sep 03 2013, 17:31

Would Tau alli be a good counter, im thinking HQ skyfire intercepter 2xflamers, 3,broadsides I'm thinking rail guns, and some kind of drone. Is the cost of this alli section to high? and a small group of Tau with long range S5 weapons to sit on an objective isnt bad?

the missile pod variant fires more shots at less strenth but I was looking more at the twin link to help to hit. I think I work out 1 pen hit on most flyers
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