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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 15 2013, 12:50

Its not that Tau are broken per se, its just that most of the time, they play on too small a board, with too little terrain, and they might as well have an I win button against most opponts.
Small boards without terrain neuter movement, and Tau can exploit that very well.

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Malevolent-Storm
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Wed Aug 21 2013, 21:57

agosyb wrote:
Even with raiders I found the thing about guard is our rules that we kind of abuse to take an advantage are at their least useful. 4+ to wound on an army that's almost universally t3 isn't very appealing, and av12 is that niche where lance weapons aren't really doing you any favors. I feel dirty typing that, because Str8 Ap2 is still a very capable weapon
I always felt that IG tended to turn many of our assumptions on their ear, making a lot of what was sub-optimal the better pick. We can take them, but it is easy for us to have the wrong list. For IG, I always seem to be wishing I had more DLs and, of all things, Shredders.

And Dominic, I've always wondered how it'd be to play DE on an 8' x 12' board with 1500 to 2000 points. We could really use our speed then.

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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 22 2013, 06:45

I started playing DE when the current codex came out.   I lost.  A lot.  It was ok at first, but I knew I had to do something when one of my younger kids ( he was 8 at the time)  tabled me on turn 2 with Nids and complained that beating me was too easy.

And no, I didn't just let him win.  

So, I decided right then that I was going to figure this army out.  I played mini "games" with just a couple units to see what each were actually good at. I tried maxing out on wargear and not upgrading anything.  I read websites ( like this one ) to get other ideas.  Eventually I figured out what my play style was, and built an army around that.   In my last league participation, the only army I couldn't beat consistently ( out of 20 players ) was a necron one using IA12 units.   Another league is about to start up and I'm pretty sure that I now have a few surprises for that necron player.  

I believe the real thing here is that DE requires a lot more pregame thought than most other armies.  A de player has to know how to counter other armies strengths, or even just know when to ignore them.  There are actually a lot of good choices in our codex; but the key is putting together the right synergy that works for how you want to play the game.   This requires information. So take notes about your games. What worked, what failed miserably? Should you have castled up or deployed across the table only to completely redeploy turn one through movement? Should you try to hit those helldrakes or focus elsewhere? What if you had just slaughtered his troops ( keeping him from getting objectives )
while hiding from his big stuff?

Fortunately fear is a real weapon.  There are a couple guys in my group that now have a completely irrational fear of my Jetbikes.  To the point that they will dedicate half a game going after just those units.  I use this as it allows the rest of my army the freedom to tie a noose around their necks.  By the same token people are afraid of the talos/cronos.  It's a good model but rarely earns its points back; however it is an absolute fire magnet.  Which keeps my other units alive.  Which means it is actually worth far more than it costs.  

Don't give up; you can do this.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 22 2013, 09:11

clively wrote:
Fortunately fear is a real weapon.  There are a couple guys in my group that now have a completely irrational fear of my Jetbikes.  To the point that they will dedicate half a game going after just those units.  I use this as it allows the rest of my army the freedom to tie a noose around their necks.  By the same token people are afraid of the talos/cronos.  It's a good model but rarely earns its points back; however it is an absolute fire magnet.  Which keeps my other units alive.  Which means it is actually worth far more than it costs.
So true! Very Happy

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CheZZoR
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 22 2013, 10:55

Mushkilla wrote:
clively wrote:
Fortunately fear is a real weapon.  There are a couple guys in my group that now have a completely irrational fear of my Jetbikes.  To the point that they will dedicate half a game going after just those units.  I use this as it allows the rest of my army the freedom to tie a noose around their necks.  By the same token people are afraid of the talos/cronos.  It's a good model but rarely earns its points back; however it is an absolute fire magnet.  Which keeps my other units alive.  Which means it is actually worth far more than it costs.
So true! Very Happy
I absolutely love the Talos and if you can get it close enough to assault some vehicles it more than makes up it's points cost. I played a small 500 point game a few weeks ago and instead of including a Ravager I took the Talos instead. The Talos soaked up loads of fire, wrecked 2 chimera's and took out most of the contents of both Chimeras before it was killed.

Edit: I also forgot to say that we agreed it would start with only 2 wounds rather than 3 as it was a small game Laughing 
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 22 2013, 12:52

I prefer the cronos to the talos now, it draws even more fire (be sure to big up pain tokens), I even make sure to keep it near some incubi so it can protect them in CC....

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baster
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 22 2013, 22:31

i only started playing 40K last September so its been nearly a year, started with the battalion box set and played small games. i got beaten practically every game, added a few bits and then some more and voila it all came together. my list has evolved with my game style and now i have only lost 1 game (IG) in the last 6 months with it. i don`t play tournaments yet as they don`t appeal to me, but do play every Thursday and every other Sunday.

point is DE are not easy, we all know that and its part of the beauty of playing them, keep going and the rewards will come and when they do the elation you will feel will be worth it. then after a few more games you will crush any opponent that does not understand us or tactically makes mistakes allowing us our strengths. be patient, try different tactics, make notes on performance but most of all persevere and before you know it your opponent will change their game to make you work harder for the win!
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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 23 2013, 13:10

I have been at WH40k for less than a year (DE is my only army, apart from a few CWE I will maybe sometimes use), and I probably have played even less games than most who have been at the hobby the same time as me. Im a fluff person at most, but I try to keep gaming regularly.
I still have more losses than wins at the few games I have played, and I have lost quite horribly sometimes, but I am 100% sure that im getting better each time.
I am very glad that I picked Dark Eldar (in the end, it was almost like a throw of a coin between DE and CWE), because I enjoy the speed we have (I dont need to play another army to know that) and the different way we can play (again, I dont need to play another army to know that most of them cant play a very mobile game), and while I try to be a nice player and good sportsmanship, I must say that I enjoy bringing my Dark Eldar to the tables of GW-Helsinki (no-one else really plays them there), and the look on some more "veteran" players faces when their troops meet my venoms after they had completely underestimated an army they didnt know! I dont want to say that as self-praise, I still have lost games where the situation above has happened!

I really also think that there is a mixed view that DE are either very easy army to beat, or cheesy. I think that it is all in the matter of playing them right.
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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 23 2013, 14:27

When I first started with my Dark Eldar I don't think I won a game for that entire first year. Granted I didn't play that many, but still. I took a bunch of time off and went back to my wolves for a bit. Then I decided to give it another go and since my first game back where I was nearly tabled by some tyranids (I didn't know the army at all, and all the similar names confused me Razz) I haven't had a crushing loss since. Most of my games I've been crushing my opponents, and others have come down to the random turn length.

For me the game that brought my faith back the most recently was a loss I suffered against the New Eldar. It was one of those games where if it ended on turn 5 or 6 I won, but it went to turn 7 for a lose. After the game I tried to figure out what I could have done differently, it had seemed al game like I couldn't drop his tanks and there were just so many of them. That is when I realized the major flaw in my army... I was short 500pts out of the 1500 we were playing with. I had just played a 1000 pt game and for some reason when I went to start the 1500pt game I had thought it had just been a 1500pt game I had played.

The main thing to remember is target priority, and deplolying so only your taget can get a good shot at you. If all goes well the target shouldn't be there to shoot back. Also remember to get rid of those pesky troops (and othere scoring units). I can't tell you how many of my games have been won because I was able to wipe out all of my oponents troops.
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Mon Aug 26 2013, 09:03

I do not share the view with many others that DE are an hard army to play, you just need to know a few things before playing it, if you know those things you will be fine

- Target priority, to know this you need to know the army you are playing.
- List building, to do this you need to know your army, whats good and not and what works together.
- Beeing agressive, if you are, your oponent will make alot of mistakes.

Anyway I needed a year of losses before I started winning, now I dont loose often. When I do, I usually learn ALOT. Its the games I learn from. The problem I see for my friends that isnt getting any better, they blame the Dices, they blame the rules etc. But I have never thought to myself I lost a game due to dice's. I do blame them during the game sometimes if they are horrible. But I know after the game if I lost even tho I dice'd bad, I just know I did some stupid mistakes.

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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Mon Aug 26 2013, 14:05

Darklight wrote:
I do not share the view with many others that DE are an hard army to play, you just need to know a few things before playing it, if you know those things you will be fine

- Target priority, to know this you need to know the army you are playing.
- List building, to do this you need to know your army, whats good and not and what works together.
- Beeing agressive, if you are, your oponent will make alot of mistakes.

Anyway I needed a year of losses before I started winning, now I dont loose often. When I do, I usually learn ALOT. Its the games I learn from.
I agree 99.9%! It isn't so much that they are hard to play tactics wise, more that they are very unforgiving. The key is to stay calm under pressure and not let your opponent psych you out (while at the same time you should be making them panic from your agressive threats.

Darklight wrote:
The problem I see for my friends that isnt getting any better, they blame the Dices, they blame the rules etc. But I have never thought to myself I lost a game due to dice's. I do blame them during the game sometimes if they are horrible. But I know after the game if I lost even tho I dice'd bad, I just know I did some stupid mistakes
The only reason I disagree 0.1% is that while I agree blaming it on the dice and rules isn't always good, (often it is a tactical error) there are times when I have been so unlucky that my opponent started feeling bad. By bad luck I mean times like when my two Ravagers failed to hit for two turns and then finally getting three hits with 1 only to roll 3 1s on penetration. Aside from bad luck like this though I agree that it is important to look for the underlying tactical error, not blame the rules/ dicegods.
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Sun Oct 13 2013, 16:32

I've been winning pretty regularly against IG and Blood Angels/Space Marines. I think Orks could pose a problem for DE. Maybe do a Battle Report and keep track of the game and learn from tatical mistakes. That's what I did my first game with them. I got destroyed, I mean TABLED in turn 4. Came back the next game and tied. Haven't lost since. I'm 3-1-2 with my DE. I know it's not a lot of games. I would also try taking more time to move, I think of 40k as free roam Chess with shooting. Chess being the main point, really think about what he could do to counter every move you make and every breath you take....he'll be watching you. Very Happy but seriously, just make sure that's the move you want to make and make sure it's not easily countered. Dark Eldar are glass hammers, just get them in range and they will do the rest.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Oct 17 2013, 12:51

Aah, the DE learning curve. It was pretty steep for me, too Smile

Malevolent-Storm wrote:
And Dominic, I've always wondered how it'd be to play DE on an 8' x 12' board with 1500 to 2000 points. We could really use our speed then.
I haven't played 8' x 12' yet, but I believe I'm 4-0 on an 8' x 4'. It's much easier (for us) than a 6' x 4', especially when people play with the mindset of 'gee, I'd better spread my dudes out across the whole board'. On the other hand, I've played a heap of games on 4' x 4', which is a heap trickier. On a related note, I really hate the 'Hammer and Anvil' set up. No room for lateral envelopment at all Sad

For the OP, I can feel where you're coming from. At one stage I was getting hammered a lot, and rocking a record something like 1 win and a draw from 20 games against Guard.

I got through by doing two things. First, I made sure I was having fun. Telling the story, writing in some character to my evil space elves, and playing in character - flying around as fast as I could, playing recklessly... it may sound strange, but it helped keep it fun. Second, I mixed up my army lists more and more. I think we all can fall into certain ways of playing, and consciously or sometimes unconsciously constrain our list selection. But when you're getting smashed game in game out, you have to try different things. Not necessarily the 'hot net combo of the week', just different. If you try enough things out, one of them will work sooner or later. For me, the ultimate lesson was increasing target saturation, increasing MSU, and decreasing choices which were not warriors or skimmers - mind you this was an edition or two ago, and the old codex.

Oh, and try and find some games against Space Marines or Tyranids, against whom we match up pretty well. A good win against a less challenging race can be good for the self-confidence Smile

Darklight wrote:
I do not share the view with many others that DE are an hard army to play, you just need to know a few things before playing it, if you know those things you will be fine

- Target priority, to know this you need to know the army you are playing.
- List building, to do this you need to know your army, whats good and not and what works together.
- Beeing agressive, if you are, your oponent will make alot of mistakes.
I agree, but must add - use terrain. If you have limited conception of how to use terrain to your advantage, Dark Eldar will teach it to you pretty quickly, pretty brutally.

Man, I didn't set out to write an essay. I guess I just don't know when to shut up Embarassed 
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Nighthawk
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Mon Oct 28 2013, 19:27

Dark Eldar aren't all that HARD to play, they're just so DIFFERENT than pretty much every other army out there. They also require you to know a lot more of the rules of the game, especially stealth and cover and intervening models and night fighting (things that Marines can ignore). This makes them particularly hard to play for someone entirely new to 40k, and to former MEQ players not because they're hard but just different.

For these reasons I also think playing DE makes you a better 40k player in general. You learn how and when to be aggressive, use terrain to your advantage, and be sneaky.
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Tue Oct 29 2013, 08:23

Nighthawk wrote:
For these reasons I also think playing DE makes you a better 40k player in general.  You learn how and when to be aggressive, use terrain to your advantage, and be sneaky.
I would whole heartedly agree with this. Its a tough learning curve, but when it comes together its brilliant. I play Tau as well (ducks thrown cheese) and found that these are really easy to play after about 8 months playing DE. The more you play, the better you get.

One last thing, list tweaks are fine, mass changes can be a problem. I used to change my entire list composition to try different units and upgrades out, and all it did was confuse me to the point where I didn't know what was what and what rules I needed to know. By getting some help (mush is the gear at this) and using the same (mostly) list regularly, I learned how to play those units properly and far more effectively. I run a Kabal List with hellions coz I like to shoot stuff, and have been relatively successful, but the early games were painful, but worth it in the long run.

Post up a list or, better yet, describe what you want to achieve with your army and the type of army you want to be and the people here will help you immeasurably.
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Tue Oct 29 2013, 14:25

Nighthawk wrote:
Dark Eldar aren't all that HARD to play, they're just so DIFFERENT than pretty much every other army out there.
This is also exactly what I have been thinking.
Dark Eldar are my first army (and so far, technically my only army), and I cant really think them as difficult to play. Yeah, sure, I lost the first few games (and still do lose some games), but I already tabled an opponent at my third game (it was just 500pts, but still).

So, new players have a large advantage if they choose dark eldar. And yet they say that only veterans should play it.
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Wed Oct 30 2013, 18:14

If the new players are playing low points like 500-1250 DE have the advantage, none of the other armies in my meta can place out the firepower that DE can at such low points. (or at least haven't) I think at low points we have an advantage, but at higher point costs other armies come into their own.

I think depending on the mindset of the individual depends on if they can excel with the DE as a beginner. I think certain people are suited for certain armies. Example...we have a guy in my meta who plays elder and grey knights, he does really well with eldar, but gets beat down more often than not with grey knights. He doesn't believe he has the right playstyle for that army, on the other hand, I have seen people acknowledge that they can play their armies, but couldn't handle DE for squishiness and hyper aggressiveness.
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Wed Jan 08 2014, 04:17

My best friend has Orks, and he can usually hold his own against my Chaos Space Marines and Daemons. My Dark Eldar, though, are a different story, especially since I added two Venoms. Ravagers take down any armor he brings, then stick around for shots at Nobs and the Warboss if they present themselves. The Venoms provide lots of splinter cannon fire from out of his range, while the Raider gunboats with dissies slice into Lootas and Boyz mobs from just out of range, swooping in to double-tap the units once they've been weakened significantly. I can usually keep most of my vehicles too, since most of the time he can't hit me with anything.

I used the same basic list against Necron and IG players, except I kept the dark lances on my Raiders. I had some success in those games as well. And a few weeks ago we played DE and Orks against Grey Knights and Iron Fists; we lost in a very close game.

The only time I really lose badly with DE I can look back and see clearly when I wasn't aggressive enough or didn't understand an enemy unit's capabilities. My future approach to help me make decisions during a game will be to just look at my models- fast, aggressive, lethal-looking things all. That should be all the reminder I need as to how they want to be played.  pirat 
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PostSubject: Re: New Faith in the Dark Eldar   Thu Jan 09 2014, 09:13

I think the point by shadowharte is exceptionally valid. 1250 and down DE are fabulous for the reasons stated. Where they start to require more skill and aggression is 1500 plus imo. Opponents can bring out their big toys and ours start to be less effective. Its still doable against competent players and decent lists, some filth builds are near impossible. Altho I have just spent two days packing house so I may be rambling on...

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