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 Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 01:37

Quote :
What is DAVU? I am not familiar with that shorthand.
Dire Avenger Vehicle Upgrade.. basically 5 bare avengers to unlock a ride.

Quote :
But yes, I am looking at it in that manner. Now that you talked about points composition, I am actually also curious about the blurring of the lines between an Eldar list and also a Dark Eldar list especially when the cost of the allies could actually be almost equivalent to the parent list. That is another conundrum that I also face; would it be prudent to make Dark Eldar a secondary choice instead?
Ya what tony said. Limited access to venoms, ravagers, reavers and beasts. That said you do open up the option for seer council.

Overall I believe eldar allies can be very effective and compliment DE well with better AA and AT. My problem is every time I sit down and design a list with any allies at the end it looks to cost me more than im willing to pay. Its a personal thing. I guess its worth noting that I have dropped back down from 1850 to 1.5k and even 1k games lately which is a huge difference when considering allies.

The other side is, I havent had any serious problems with the elements that these guys help to address. Now maybe in a tournament setting with sparse terrain, maxed out flyers and full on mechanized infantry I might find otherwise.

If I were to utilize eldar slaves for competitive play heres a loose idea of what it would look like at 1850, sadly no grots, no double beasts and only 4 venoms..

HQ
baron
farseer, jetbike, ss

TROOPS
5 warriors , blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors , blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors , blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors , blaster, venom- 2 sc
3 windriders, sc
3 windriders, sc

FA
18 beast pack, 4 bm, 10 khy, 4 rw
7 warp spiders

HS
3 war walkers, 3 sl, 3 bl
razorwing, ff
razorwing, ff
ravager, ff

1849


Last edited by Brom on Thu Jun 27 2013, 04:27; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 02:06

Please forgive the double post just this once, but for the sake of comparison is the above list any stronger than this one:

HQ
baron

ELITES
3 trueborn, 3 blasters, venom- 2 sc
3 trueborn, 2 dl, raider
3 trueborn, 2 dl, raider

TROOPS (or hwg wyches)
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc, gt
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors

FA
17 beasts, 4 bm, 9 khy, 4 rw

HS
ravager
ravager
ravager
adl, quad gun

1849


Last edited by Brom on Thu Jun 27 2013, 04:36; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 02:52

I'm confused why you're bringing the duke with no squad for him to really buff... I'm guessing you mean to bring The Baron to join the beasts?

It's hard to judge which is stronger. I feel like you're putting points into eldar jetbikes just for scoring. I think that if you're going to bring eldar allies, you need to compliment your main force. With all the armor saturation in a run of the mill DE army, I believe its best to use wave serpents with your troop choice. My reasoning is this: If you're bringing Eldar allies, you're losing armor saturation. The more armor saturation you lose, you'll feel the effect of losing a venom more and more.

Here's my list for an upcoming 1700 point tournament.

1700 List wrote:
Baron
Haem /w Shattershard
Spiritseer

Wracks /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Wracks /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Wraithguard (cannons) /w Wave Serpent (TL SL)

Beastmasters (x5 Khymera, x6 flocks)

Ravager
Ravager
x2 Warwalkers (x2 SL each)

Going up to 2000, I'd field the following:

2000 List wrote:
Baron
Haem /w Shattershard
Spiritseer

Wracks /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Wracks /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Haywyches /w Venom (NS, x2 cannon)
Wraithguard (cannons) /w Wave Serpent (TL SL)

Beastmasters (x5 Khymera, x6 flocks)

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager
x3 Warwalkers (x2 SL each)

The wraithguard compliment my main force because they turbo forward in their Wave Serpent (usually) with a spiritseer. This gives them a 2+ cover save AV12 skimmer that ignores pens on a 2+. Pretty much guaranteed threat. If they have ignore cover weapons, I adapt my strategy. The spiritseer is a HUGE boon to a beast pack. EVERY one of his powers is good. My beef with the farseer choice is that you can roll powers you'll never use.

My DE list is functional on its own, and the Eldar compliment my choices. Armor saturation, beast pack buff. Poison spam only goes so far against some armies; you need the S6 guns that the Eldar bring to create a balanced, competitive list. Just don't fall into the trap of the Eldar - bringing TOO much. Eldar units are expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 04:36

Fixed the mistake thanks for catching it. Ive built lists with wave serpents as well but they are so expensive at 210 minimum that more DE units get cut (beasts in my case).

Your 1700 list looks good but honestly I question the benefits over just going pure DE, which is pretty much where this discussion is at I think.
At 2k you max the HS which then 'justifies' the war walkers although maybe im going too far with needing to max a FoC first.. idk. Thing is ravagers are damn efficient at 105 without netting a 2nd HQ expense so I struggle to see the bennies. Also the wave serpent is 300 pts which feels prohibitive if its not an assault vehicle packing a deathstar.

That said I like the lists, just in the context of this discussion I wonder how any allied army really stacks up as opposed to pure DE.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 10:23

@autopilot wrote:
My beef with the farseer choice is that you can roll powers you'll never use.

True, but even in that case you still get Guide and Prescience, which both dramatically change every game I've played using him. And 2/3 chance at Doom or Fortune is nothing to sneeze at.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 10:58

I should have realised things weren't going to go my way in my game last night when I rolled my Farseer's powers:

Death Mission - seriously, is anyone ever going to use that power?
Mind War - might be okay at Warp Charge 1 but 2? Really?
Precognition - I can reroll the hit and wound rolls for a single puny psyker or swap it for rerolls to hit on an entire unit? Let me think...

Tabled by end of Turn 3. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 13:04

Regarding Terrain
There are RULES in the RULE BOOK that dictate terrain.
If the tournments you enter do not follow those rules, that means the tournament is broken, not DEldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 15:05

@DominicJ wrote:
Regarding Terrain
There are RULES in the RULE BOOK that dictate terrain.
If the tournments you enter do not follow those rules, that means the tournament is broken, not DEldar.

My favourite rule of 6e by far is to be found in this section. Step One of setting up the battlefield is to roll for table edge.

Of an empty table...

What exactly am I rolling for at this point? View from the window? Closest to the toilet? Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 15:19

ive said it before but our CWE allies bring to the table something we lack, the medium S shooting (6-7) we have poison for anything with high T (suck balls wraithknight) and dissy cannons for the AP2 then we sort of jump straight up to our DL's
and the units that can take HL's only the reavers are really viable with them

7-8 warpspiders backed up by a jetseer can pump out some serious firepower at all targets AI,AT or AA.
and they have the speed to keep up with out attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 16:54

What would you need the medium strength for? High toughness opponents? We have poison...vehicles? lances and blasters eat those up...I fail to see the need for those honestly.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 18:09

@ligolski wrote:
What would you need the medium strength for? High toughness opponents? We have poison...vehicles? lances and blasters eat those up...I fail to see the need for those honestly.
It's for rate of fire more than anything else. DE have always suffered vs mech lists (well, I have at least) - especially those with lots of light vehicles - which is why we often have to squeeze so many lance shots into our lists (in my current pure DE list every unit bar one has an anti-tank ability). Having access to multi-shot S6/7 weapons eases the pressure on the DE section regarding anti-tank and offers some nice AA ability too.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 18:18

@Squierboy wrote:
@ligolski wrote:
What would you need the medium strength for? High toughness opponents? We have poison...vehicles? lances and blasters eat those up...I fail to see the need for those honestly.
It's for rate of fire more than anything else. DE have always suffered vs mech lists (well, I have at least) - especially those with lots of light vehicles - which is why we often have to squeeze so many lance shots into our lists (in my current pure DE list every unit bar one has an anti-tank ability). Having access to multi-shot S6/7 weapons eases the pressure on the DE section regarding anti-tank and offers some nice AA ability too.

I suppose it is nice for light armor, though you could always use wyches with HWG if you're so inclined. We also have heat lances that you could use with scourages or bikes. I feel like we have some, the question is where in the list we can actually field them, which can be difficult for sure. Ooo almost forgot there are also shredders...hard to find a place for those for sure though.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 18:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I should have realised things weren't going to go my way in my game last night when I rolled my Farseer's powers:

Death Mission - seriously, is anyone ever going to use that power?
Mind War - might be okay at Warp Charge 1 but 2? Really?


Tabled by end of Turn 3. Sad


Why didn't you trade for Guide?

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jun 27 2013, 19:32

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I should have realised things weren't going to go my way in my game last night when I rolled my Farseer's powers:

Death Mission - seriously, is anyone ever going to use that power?
Mind War - might be okay at Warp Charge 1 but 2? Really?


Tabled by end of Turn 3. Sad


Why didn't you trade for Guide?

I did. Swapped Death Mission and Precog for Guide and Prescience but it was just indicative of what my dice were going to do to me that battle. Lost a Ravager first turn which exploded, catching 6 warriors in the blast, all of which were wounded, none of which saved and the survivors then broke and fled off the table, despite being 11" from the edge. Things went downhill from there...

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Fri Jun 28 2013, 07:33

@Brom wrote:
Fixed the mistake thanks for catching it. Ive built lists with wave serpents as well but they are so expensive at 210 minimum that more DE units get cut (beasts in my case).
Yes, exactly my point in my previous post. Bringing too much Eldar is a trap, and you'll pay for it by having nearly nothing from a DE list. DE lists strength is armor saturation with a ton of targets. They're squishy targets, but since you have so many, your opponents can't handle it (especially with elite lists). If you bring 2 wave serpents, and a huge group of warp spiders, and some decked out war walkers, you're going to pay for it with a LOT of groups from your DE list. This makes your DE that much weaker because having only 2-3 venoms effectively means you have none. You're going to really be feeling the heat when you lose 1.

Honestly, bringing 1 wave serpent is plenty. I almost always bring lists with pairs - I never bring only one of something. However, you have to think of this differently with Eldar. Their units are much more survivable. Elite, if you will. Having only one Wave Serpent is a lot of fire power. I mean, the thing should almost be a Heavy slot. I think its a fair price to pay when your playing at the 1700+ range. Anything lower and you might as well ignore allies. Your DE half of your list will suffer too much.

@Brom wrote:

Your 1700 list looks good but honestly I question the benefits over just going pure DE, which is pretty much where this discussion is at I think.
Yup, I'm just putting out my opinion. :-)

I think DE lists on their own are very strong, especially when min-maxed to peak efficiency. However, there are really hard match-ups out there. For example, mech guard. And when I say mech guard, I'm talking chimeras everywhere. With Eldar allies, this match-up is no longer an uphill battle. Thats great! Now, you might think that this DE/Eldar list would then suffer against an opponent that pure DE lists regularly have an advantage? Not so. Let's take Nids for example. You still have plenty of poison to take out MCs, and you even have an even better counter to swarms - Warwalkers!

Its very hard to justify dropping DE units for Eldar ones on paper, because everyone isn't used to it. We can list out a venom spam list at 1750 and 'Ooo and Ahh' at it, then list out another that drops 2-3 venoms for a farseer and a wave serpent and say "hmmm... I dunno..."

Its hard to judge. My suggestion to everyone is to try it. Proxy some things. Bring only a very small Eldar ally contingent. Play a few games. See if you like it. I can guarantee, as long as you make it a SMALL ally force, you will not miss your DE that you dropped.

@Brom wrote:

At 2k you max the HS which then 'justifies' the war walkers although maybe im going too far with needing to max a FoC first.. idk. Thing is ravagers are damn efficient at 105 without netting a 2nd HQ expense so I struggle to see the bennies.
Ravagers are pretty efficient. But so are Warwalkers. If you put lances on warwalkers, they're 210 points for 6 lances. Thats exactly what ravagers cost. They're both opentop. The ravager has jink and AV11, but the warwalkers have a 5+ invul. I just keep the scatter lasers on them for versatility. I really only need lances for higher AV targets. My warwalkers and wyches handle the rest. Also, I know its a little unreliable, but I do have the wraithguard. =P

@Brom wrote:
Also the wave serpent is 300 pts which feels prohibitive if its not an assault vehicle packing a deathstar.
Sigh, I know... If I made them Dire avengers, I'd have about 90 or so points. Perhaps I could drop something here and there for another ravager to make up for the S10 loss. The wraithguard eat up a lot of high Stength fire power, though, which is very helpful for my vehicle survival. And its a tougher troop. And they look awesome! Hard for me to decide.

@ligolski wrote:
I suppose it is nice for light armor, though you could always use wyches with HWG if you're so inclined. We also have heat lances that you could use with scourages or bikes. I feel like we have some, the question is where in the list we can actually field them, which can be difficult for sure. Ooo almost forgot there are also shredders...hard to find a place for those for sure though.
Strength 6-7 weapons generally have a high rate of fire, so are a good counter to infantry, light vehicles, and in rare cases - fliers. All of these things DE have a problem with when they're spammed.

Tony Specatacular, in regards to Farseers wrote:
True, but even in that case you still get Guide and Prescience, which both dramatically change every game I've played using him. And 2/3 chance at Doom or Fortune is nothing to sneeze at.
Farseers are great, don't get me wrong. I just have had bad experiences with them so far. I used to bring one with my old allied Warwalkers since they were BS3, and because the other choices in the old codex were pretty poopy. I really, really like Runes of Battle, and I can get by with BS4 - especially with Scatter Lasers twin-linking things. Its just personal preference.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Jul 03 2013, 02:10

Damn you autopilot damn your pride! Now I've gone and added warp spiders to my army. Turns out wingless scourges with shredders (monofilament based weapon) make great warp spiders.. Add the helmet hooks of course.

Anyway enough confession I'm outie
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Jul 03 2013, 04:00

@Brom wrote:
Damn you autopilot damn your pride! Now I've gone and added warp spiders to my army.  Turns out wingless scourges with shredders (monofilament based weapon) make great warp spiders.. Add the helmet hooks of course.

Anyway enough confession I'm outie

Haha, I'm glad you're enjoying the modeling opportunity, and I hope you enjoy hitting some sweet, sweet rear armor. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Jul 03 2013, 06:04

What do you guys think about D scythe Wraithguard over d cannon wraithguard? With a spiritseer, they become a tough as nails troop unit that is very hard to assault with anything but huge numbers. That leaves our kabals free to do what they do best and that is stay mobile and kill. With a wave serpent that can double as anti air in a pinch, I think it is worth the cost you pay.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Jul 03 2013, 07:54

@Zarathustra wrote:
What do you guys think about D scythe Wraithguard over d cannon wraithguard?  With a spiritseer, they become a tough as nails troop unit that is very hard to assault with anything but huge numbers.  That leaves our kabals free to do what they do best and that is stay mobile and kill.  With a wave serpent that can double as anti air in a pinch, I think it is worth the cost you pay.
I think the d-scythe is an incredible weapon, and I would consider taking it if it didn't cost extra points. The wraithguard are already an expensive unit.

And, tbh, I'm not afraid of something assaulting my wraithguard. I think my opponent is worried about my beastmaster pack assaulting THEM. ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Jul 03 2013, 08:50

D-Scythe wraithguard make a great screen for foot assault troops, as you say there's not much that would want to assault them, and then in your turn they can step aside to let your premier assault crew charge in.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jul 04 2013, 01:57

After playing a handful of DE vs. Eldar games over the weekend, I decided I want to ally in Eldar into my DE. I'm trying to create a hybrid coven list...so why not increase the amount of high toughness units?!?!

I'm thinking I add a unit of wraiths with melee weapons, spiritseer(s) (ally Iyanden) and best of all a wraithknight...This shoves 2 more tough units along with my 2 talos' and grots giving me 5 units that are badass. The rest of the army is my troops gunning stuff down as they are distracted by the stuff raining down terror.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jul 04 2013, 10:00

Sounds good but you're probably looking at 7-800 points just on allies. That's a lot of your army and might leave you short on troops and DE units generally.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Thu Jul 04 2013, 23:06

I usually play 2k points so here is a quick list i threw together:

DE Primary:
Archon (soul trap, shadowfield, huskblade, PGL)

Grots (3 with abberation for a total of 4, aberation has scissorhand, one liquifier in squad)

2x Warriors with SC and blaster (10 man squad)
1x Warrior with SC (8 man squad)
2x Wyches with HWG and raider with nighshield

2x Talos Pain Engine with TL-liquifier

Eldar Detachment:
Spiritseer with Forgestone
5 man wraithblade squad with Wave Serpent (halo fields, twin linked scatter lasers and shuriken cannon)
Wraithknight with two heavy wraithcannons, scatter laser and starcannon


I think this is pretty good for the most part. This list keeps in mind what I personally have access to. One my collection grows I would probably drop the wyches or move them to venoms and take blaster born. The one smaller squad of warriors could be sacrificed for different weapons on the wraithknight.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Wed Aug 07 2013, 09:25

Sorry if this is a necro, I was interested in this topic and it seemed like the conversation was directed here.

I'm coming from the opposite direction here: I've got an Eldar army and I'm adding my Dark Eldar army to it and expanding it as I go. I've always loved gunboats so my only strategy was to grab two Raiders and build from there. I wound up with a list which is about 50/50 CWE/DE (by models, not points). The big trick is that both armies want to grab 3 Heavy Support so it's hard to decide which should be the main detachment. The decision really comes down to which is better between War Walkers or Ravagers I think. Any thoughts?

For reference, I play at 1850 pts because that's how we do it in the Americas. I find that adding one army to the other is a force multiplier of sorts because it changes the most effective way units can be used. For example all your poison shots should be directed at high T first because you have so much S6 from Eldar which can be directed at low T. In pure Eldar the high S needs to shoot at high T and in pure DE everything is wounded on a 4+ so the combination is a benefit for both armies.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that CWE allies are necessary for DE to be competitive but I think that a hybrid list has more potential than a pure DE list. I will say that Guided Warp Spiders are pretty beast against flyers and vehicles when you're firing up to 20 rerollable S7 shots which seems to be a common gripe in this thread. Also CWE get more love from Forge World and the Warp Hunter is almost auto-include if it's allowed in your setting. I imagine that pure DE players will be hesitant to drop Venoms for Wave Serpents but I find that having different types of guns really increases the utility and reduces the likelihood that you'll be hard countered. If you're having fun and success with DE though I don't see the point in adding allies unless you just want the standard Farseer and 3 Windriders for the psychic powers and objective scoring.

@Mushkilla wrote:
10 warriors in area terrain can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game.

58"-67" if you factor in the length of the Raider which is 9". This means you start your Warriors behind the Raider, then move 2d6 pick the highest and embark 2" and move the Raider in the same direction the Warriors moved so that they disembark on the opposite side of the Raider. I don't know how often you find yourself 67" from an objective but I guess it's something to keep in mind Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Are Allies Really Necessary for Dark Eldar to be truly competitive in today's environment?   Tue Aug 13 2013, 01:26

I really think this depends on the metagame, who your opponents are and what your needs are.

For me, CWE gives you 2x scoring units in Wave Serpents, which is a more expensive and substantial upgrade over a single Lance Raider. It also allows you to take a Farseer as your primary HQ choice, which is a great Lv.3 caster with Divination. I would personally take him as a Laughing Seer because a 2+ re-rollable cover is kinda ridiculous when combined with double Guide.

I have the following formula for my DE + CWE. The Crimson Hunter Exarch allows me to free up the Heavy slot for another Ravager without losing any dedicated AA flyer. I also get a Night Spinner to compensate my more anti-armor heavies with a solid anti-hordes unit. Lastly, I get some solid scoring units in well-protected Wave Serpents, and a good HQ (Farseer) to lead them. If I had a choice, I wouldn't take any other HQ, as I see the mandatory DE HQ as a tax now if I go with this combo.

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