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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 20 2013, 02:54

Vect looks awesome on paper, but he's really just an expensive way to help ensure you go first. His shooty attack isn't that great, AP3 in combat blows for an archon that expensive in my opinion. He should really be AP2. The preferred enemy is nice though, but once again, is he really worth it for that cost when you could take a farseer and boost units that way instead? I doubt it. If they dropped his points then maybe or gave him AP2 (he is the supreme overlord...).

I'm glad the wyches and beasts did well for you. I'm considering adding beasts to my army in the future once I get my elites and and everything else set. I'm curious to see if you can get mandrakes to do anything. I got a squad just because my fiance wanted to paint them.

I like the list otherwise, would you switch out vect and dias and if so what for in this list?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 20 2013, 03:59


- update aug. 19th -

This whole thread is predicated on testing unorthodix approaches to DE. I am never going to field a list with just venoms and ravagers. Hey, every one and his uncle knows that there are issues with Vect. He is still a pretty uber character. Just a bit pricey. And so is his dias. Would a farseer be better? Yes probably more useful. Will I be taking Vect out of this list? Well, i've played plenty of DelDar lists and I want to go pure DE for awhile at least. I've used Archon and grots and they are good and considerably cheaper. I've used Urien and grots in a raider.  It would not be too hard to change the list up and I'm tempted to use Urien again. I did like the twelve DLs, 3 dissies, wyches in a raider with haywires. Changing up the list will drop the number of DLs down a bit. I might even add those mandrakes to it. I think that when building a list you need to focus on what you want to accomplish. I set out to have a very mobile list with enough MTO (multiple targets of opportunity) to confuse my opponent and to support each unit in the list with another. While my transports are active I can redeploy quickly to where I want pressure supplied. I have a three units capable of cc, many units capable of AT and plenty of poison for backup. I would never suggest that anyone take the dias in a TaC list. That said it worked out well enough and I was happy enough with the experiment. I will probably go for this next game  ...

Urien Is Still Uber

Urien Rakarth 190
4 Uber Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Raider, Disintegrator, Nightshields 270

2x 10 Kabalite Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite, Venom Blade, Raider, Dark Lance, Nightshields  370
10 Wracks, 2 Liquifier Guns, Acothyst, Agoniser, Raider, Dark Lance 220
10 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, , Hexatrix, Agoniser, Raider, Dark Lance 210

3x 2 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwings 252

2x Ravager, Nightshields 230
Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon 105

(1849)

Still have nine DLs and plenty of AT. I like Urien passing out tokens to my Talos and Wrack squad too. Depending on how the game goes I could have a few fearless, FNP, FC units on the table, lol. I still plan on eventually using a quad of mandrakes. With FNP, 5++, Stealth, Fleet, Outflank, High initiative and Infiltrate they can still add something to a list. Getting them a Haemie is not that hard with the way DE can move on the table top. But this will be another discussion after I've played them again and written up a report.


Last edited by egorey on Tue Aug 20 2013, 12:41; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 20 2013, 04:38

Fair enough, I think we know that we are both into trying out the units Smile I tried Vect in larger games, he just didn't cut it for me...then again i didn't take the pimp mobile haha. My problem is usually lack of lances since I refuse to run Ravagers...because that's what the vast majority do. I am certainly making it harder on myself, but I believe 6th edition is kind to me enough to allow this.

Thinking about MTO, I guess I've built my army around this idea without realizing it. I use several high Toughness units that if left alone will do damage and if fired upon leave the others alone to do damage. I really like your list though, even with vect, seems pure evil. I think you could squeeze in a handful of other units or reavers perhaps if you drop vect and dias though. I think you may find it worthwhile for that extra scoring/denial unit perhaps, but I look forward to more reports to see how vect fairs if you keep him around!

Thoughts for my list as an aside:
I think I may be better off with a suncannon on my wraithknight since AP3 will be useful against any MEQ I encounter. Furthermore, I think my anti helldrake in a pinch is going to be to spiritmark the helldrake and use my wraithguard to score some S10 hits Razz

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 20 2013, 12:50

Egorey, i like your approach of take only true kind lists. Also trying out new combos is pretty inspiring.
I'm currently painting up a squad of truecarbines as I just like the idea of elite warriors.

I'll have to have some games in the n text time, as I want to try out my mandrakes again.

Very insightful, thanks a lot.

Sláinte

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 20 2013, 13:37

Please post here and let us know how the mandrake experiment goes. I tend to collaborate a lot with other players. The last game plan was sparked by conversations with Jancoren - 40k Unothosoxy blog  - who is well worth a read. My Urien list was a result of a conversation with Mush - we both like grots and small beast packs and at least some Talos. Mandrakes are one of the trickiest units to use. Maligned everywhere they non-the-less have their strong points. I will not discount fleet. move through cover, stealth, infiltrate and scout as worthless. Getting them a pain token is not that hard, btw. If you have a couple of haemies in serpents they will be in place turn two ( when you can outflank at the earliest).

As an example of thinking out of the box, Mush and I discussed this list that I've edited to reflect Mush's views on DPs ...

==The Tortoise Wins the Race==

Great Unclean One (mlv3-biomancy, balesword, grimoire) 290 - warlord
2x 4 Beasts of Nurgle (slime trail, attention seekers) 416
3x 16 Plaguebearers (plagueswords) 432
13 Plaguebearers (plagueswords, plaguebanner), Plagueridden 142
Daemon Prince, (daemonic flight, warp-forged armour, mlv1-plague discipline, balesword, greater reward, daemon of nurgle) 285
Daemon Prince, (daemonic flight, warp-forged armour, mlv1-plague discipline, balesword, greater reward, daemon of nurgle) 285

==1850==


I played a similar list for over 3 months and it was quite amusing on the table. On paper it looks a somewhat disjointed as a mix of fast and slow units. On the table it is exceedingly hard to deal with. I've yet to have an opponent kill all my PBs and my GUO in a game. The list just plays to the mission. You will not slay my warlord. You will have a tough time shifting my scoring units. You will not shift a GUO sitting on an objective to contest. The Nurgle primaris power is a flamer template AP3 weapon and is a 4+ poisoned weapon.  But you have to roll on the Nurgle chart and if you get Plague Wind you have 12" large blast AP2 poisoned 4+ ignores cover power. At MLV1 you have a 50% chance of roilling it. So why do I care if you have ignore cover? I will be in your face and destroying your ground forces anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 22 2013, 14:49

Aug. 22: 2 Days till Battle with Chaos

So as I look forward to my battle with Chaos...I come up with an interesting dilemma still...how to kit my wraithknight. Both load outs (wraithcannons vs suncannon) have their appeal. If I face Land Raiders and other armored foe then the wraithcannons would be great. Then again I will be running wyches with haywires, 2 talos, and wraithguard with cannons as well as three raiders with lances. Not a ton of turn 1 AT...but I feel like chaos don't play with a ton of vehicles unless its a helldrake, but my opponent may not like uber cheese like that...got me. I'm expecting at least one helldrake something I will probably ignore, unless I have no other good shots then I might take some shots at it, but I will generally try to ignore it. The suncannon would be awesome if I see chaos marines on the field as I could eat through that quickly.  So the question remains which route do I go?

This decision will truly dictate how my list goes as it controls 60pts of the list which is enough to start thinking how some units may be configured, upgrades, etc.  So lets look at two lists I've come up with...both subject to change of course based on feedback and such.

List 1: Suncannon
Archon (huskblade, VB, shadowfield, PGL, HWG)
Grots with liquefier in a boat (nightshields)
2x 10 warriors with cannon
2x 5 wyches with HWG in boat (nightshields)
5x reaver jetbikes
2x Talos (liquefier and cannon)

CWE allies:
Spiritseer with Spear of T. (Str 9 ap- shooty weapon and beefy profile for assault as well)
5 wraithguard with cannons in a wave serpent (holofields)
wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield and scatter laser of course


So this list is interesting in that I'm running reavers with zero upgrades, just models used to haress and help where needed. The archon is also tooled up...not sure if its worth all the points but I think the PGL will help the Grots make their charges better overall.


List 2: Wraithcannons
Archon (huskblade, VB, shadowfield, PGL)
Grots with liquefier in a boat (nightshields)
2x 10 warriors with cannon
2x 5 wyches with HWG in boat (nightshields)
6x reaver jetbikes (2 heat lances)
2x Talos (liquefier and cannon)

CWE allies:
Spiritseer with Wraithforge Stone (heals wounds on knight)
5 wraithguard with cannons in a wave serpent (holofields)
wraithknight with wraithcannons

So the major changes are loosing the HWG on the archon (no biggie there), Reaver jetbikes gain a model and 2 heat lances (much more multipurpose now), and the spiritseer gets the wraithforge stone since I figure I don't have an invuln save now, I should make sure the investment is kept safer. I like both lists as they both are solid heavy hitting with 5 high toughness units that are all targets that my opponent will have to focus on (MTO as the Duckdrake says!).


The Talos are slow but they will get the job done as the 1 I have been using has done in the past. I expect great things from using 2! But alas, which way should I go? I'm not very sure quite honestly. I'm open to changing the lists as well, though I am limited by what is in my collection of course. The other thought I've been having is what about D-sythes on the wraithguard instead?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Fri Aug 23 2013, 13:20

I'll just say that I like where you going with the lists Ligs. I also prefer list two personally. That out of the way .... I've settled on the list I'm taking to my next tournament. I've done a bit of testing (not a lot) but was pleased with the way it played.

-- going against grain, using overlooked units  - Aug 23rd --

Urien Is Still Uber


Urien Rakarth 190
4 Uber Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Flesh Gauntlet, Raider, Disintegrator 260

Haemonculus, Hexrifle, Venom Blade 70
10 Mandrakes, Nightfiend 155

2x 8 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Acothyst, Hexrifle, Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies 400
10 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, , Hexatrix, Agoniser, Raider, Disintegrator 210

3x 2 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwings 252

2x Ravagers 210
Talos, TL Liquifier Gun, TL Splinter Cannon 105

(1847)

No you cannot deploy a haemonculus with mandrakes by RaW. You can however deploy the haemie first at the edge of your deployment zone and then infiltrate your mandrakes so that they start in cohesion in front of the haemie and get the pain token, still have stealth, have move thorough cover ballast and a 3+-4+ save.  Just find a spot where they can get that save and deploy in cohesion. Move out your first turn hugging cover. It will kill 5 meqs on the charge. I hardly think it a waste.

Urien and grots on the charge will also destroy squads and the wyches are not slouches in cc either. Even your harassing beast packs put out 24 rending attacks on the charge. Now why dissies on the raiders? Well I still have eight dark lances, haywire and an MC. I think the dissies will be quite useful. Unless my opponent can take out all those raiders and raves early he will be in for it as the wracks and grots are recipients of Urien's extra tokens. The list for DE is fairly durable, lol.

So let me say that I give no credence what-so-ever to conventional net wisdom. I dislike venoms in 6ed. When I fielded them at the start of 6ed I faced more than a few lists that could take out five or six venoms in two turns comfortably. See, venoms pretty much have to be used as gunboats. Raiders transport important troops where you need as a primary use and they are gunboats as secondary use. This being true dissies are better in a lot of lists over using all DLs. Notice, I
do not use nightshields. Yep, they might  ( I say might) save me a raider or a ravager for turn. At the cost of sixty points (as I have six vehicles). I can use those points elsewhere. Also notice that I use my lucky Haemie (Harry is his name) with hexrifle and have hexrifles in my wrack squads. I will at one point discuss their benefits in 6ed more.

Let me go in further with this. I do not like MSU DE. They are fragile. You are assuming that your venoms will survive.If they explode 5 warriors, 5 wyches or 3 wracks will take casualties. If you do not have decent leadership they are also prone to running away, lol. Now I do not have a lot of troops in my list but they will not run so quickly. They should get tokens. They will have a leader with half decent LD.  There are grisly trophies. Two venoms will go down twice as fast as a large mandrake squad taking half a smooch firepower to do so.  I don't expect converts to my views. But keep an open mind. Again conventional wisdom dictates that warriors are the primary choice for troops now. I once again fly in the face of convention. I'm looking for fnp, fearless, fc troops (urien will help me there).

So there is my thinking. In a meta focusing on shooting and not cc I am fielding a hybrid list that loves to get into cc. I am pretty sure it will be unexpected. When you say DE your opponents are waiting to see razorwings, ravagers and venoms, blasterborn and shooty warriors. Surprise. That is not to say I haven't got eight DLs and a lot of haywire. I do have an AP2 smash attack MC as well. I have dakka throughout the list. It is just not the focus of the list.

And one last thought on the Dias before I retire it. It is one of our better answers to wave serpents. Wave serpents will down our raiders and venoms easily. The Dias can shoot forward turn one and unload a cargo that can take out those serpents. It is much harder for Eldar to deal with.


And finally the duckdrake's recommended reading ...

www.40Kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

This guy wins with lists that apparently should not         Wink


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Fri Aug 23 2013, 14:14

Awesome list Eg, It is very very different and i like it! The only thing I fear for you is lack of early turn Dakka, and units that will camp your objectives close to home base. However, if it goes as planned you should be close to tabling your opponent anyways. The only other weakness is your anti flier (like me!) which hopefully won't be an issue as much soon with the new marine dex.

I also like your thoughts on the venoms. I plan on owning just 2 venoms in my army for some trublood truborne. I'm thinking of just taking 3 guys with heavy weapons like lances or splinter cannons now to just unlock the venom and use it as pure AI support.

The other thought I've been having is whether to try out D-sythes. I concur (as does Mush!) that my second list looks the most solid. D-sythes would cost me 50 points to upgrades so if I lose the nightshields I would just be 20 points shy...the question would be what do I drop from there? The answer is: I don't know! Probably the PGL from the Archon since it would cover the most points quickly and then I would probably just give HWG to the archon with the left over points. But since my game is sometime tomorrow I think I'm going to go with the list as is and I will judge if D-sythes would have been more useful throughout the game than wraithcannons.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 02:12

Aug. 24

Today I had my game against Chaos, I won bottom of turn 3 with my opponent ceding the game to me. There were several things that gave me the victory. My friend was playing the new Black Legion . He played an all infantry list, no vehicles/fliers at all which surprised me. He had 1 large cultist squad, a beefed up bike squad with warlord on bike, 2 squads of plague marines (i think, one with some lord with nurgling things all around him), a raptor squad with sorcerer and a 20man squad.

Essentially lots of marines with some big baddies. I deployed 2nd, he had his stuff spread out across the long side of the board and I counter deployed on the right flank (which won me the game). Due to a large piece of terrain in the middle along with other terrain, the flank opposite to my deployment took forever to get into the fight due to bad difficult terrain and run rolls. This kept the 20man squad and 1 squad of plague marines out of the fight. His first turn he moved everything towards me for the most part and shot up part of a warrior squad, which did fine with leadership. My turns I focused on the bikes and wiped them out (giving me firstblood and i think maybe even warlord). My friend said that that was a huge loss for him as they were planning to roll up my lines with that squad (got me on how...but i plunged them into the abyss because I figured I could get easy first blood). Turn 2 and 3 saw me wipe out the right flank down to the sorcerer with one raptor and the HQ with all the nurglings...all of which were locked in combat and losing slowly. My wraithknight jumped over the 20 man blob squad and was able to assault them...they attempted to run away due to not being able to hurt the knight and I ran them down (like 16 of them!). At this point my friend ceded the game to me since all he had was the plague marines in the back and the two combats that he was slowly loosing.

MVPs: The talos did a great job just beating the crap out of midfield (mainly the sorcerer). The knight was worth his points as well with his ability to just control so much field presence.

I didn't lose a single full squad during the game and I actually forgot about my reavers in reserve turn 2 and they failed to come in turn 3...they never saw use. Chaos' bad rolls for my left flank left me able to piecemeal half his army apart with the rest of my army.


Future thoughts for changes to my list: I think I am going to find room to take D-sythes next time. They would be so much more useful as a whiole. I feel the wyches never do much but die but that's because I don't see a lot of vehicles with my new friend I've started playing with.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 13:38

Very nice Ligs. Seems you just keep winning. We will not comment on your opponent's army. I'm not sure which big baddies he brought but it seems no heldrakes which is odd for current chaos lists. Also no DPs I take it?

-- quick notes on Urien --


Okay I've received comments on both the use of Urien and my love of mandrakes. I've now got a game and a half under my belt (we ended a game early - time constraints) and I feel I can at least cooment on the Urien star. Now, I keep reading that three haemies with liquifier guns are far better than Urien. After all, he has a rather weak save, is expensive and we other great choices for an HQ. All of this is true. But he is simply obnoxious in squad of grots. In a challenge , if you feel he might lose, pop your aberration in instead of Urien. Only true insta-kill weapons are a problem and a 5+ FNP might just overcome even that although I never would risk it unless absolutely necessary. I love his extra pain tokens. Passing them out to grots and wracks  - awesome.  Just get aggressive with your Talos to see if you get him one too. Weaken a unit and then use that splinter cannon/liquifier to get him one. Urien being able to regenerate wounds - so annoying. Able to instant kill - great. Even if you are left with just him and the aberration that is a large threat on the table. And don't think S6 fearless, FNP, FC grots are not dangerous. I love this squad in both my games. Just as an aside - hexrifles took out two characters in one game and camping an objective with wracks w/ hexrifle acothyst is the bomb. In 6ed I hit on 4s, allocate and rend on 6s. Sure some characters will pass their toughness test. Some will not.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 14:03

DPs meaning deamon princes? no none of those. I think he said something about a horde layout and something about being fluffy doing so many troops...not really sure...i think he was experimenting. He said he'd take a more traditional chaos list or at least something better next time. He hadn't played his Chaos in a while and was fooling around with the new supplement. I know he doesn't like heldrake cheese so I'm not even sure he owns any. He does have a deamon army, so I may see them next time as well. But either way I feel i did well considering I had no idea what anything did, I just guessed asked a few questions on certain things here or there.


I like your ideas on Urien. I myself use a mini grot star kind of unit, though I feel like if I added a basic heamie with power axe and liquifier the squad would do even better. That furious charge would super useful with the huskblade making it S4 on the charge thus making it more reliable to instant derp some fool(s). Not sure how he would fit in my current list at all, but got me. If I came up with a secondary no ally list then I'm sure I'd get him to fit considering my eldar allies is somewhere around 700 points combined.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 15:48

Egorey: What do you think of buying the bonus S for grots with Urien? Worth it? And how often would you say it comes up?

Ligolski: What did the Chaos player end up using from the new supplement? It sounds like it didn't change the outcome very much Sad
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 16:03

I cannot say more on S6 FNP, FC, fearless Grots. You have to use them and you will learn to appreciate them. It comes up every time they charge. That is one tough squad to deal with. Of course, you are paying through the nose for it which is why competitive players eschew it. They also eschew mandrakes - which did so well and hexrifles - which did well also. Mandrakes are harder to killl than two venoms especially with stealth and FNP. I welcome players who target them and waste three turns killing them. My venoms often went down turn one. Hexrifles just add utility to a list that is cc oriented and suddenly starts picking off models. Your opponent then needs to consider those wracks. Wracks that start with FNP. As you look at the list you begin to realize that for DE it is surprisingly durable without losing the ability to reposition, move out quickly and grab objectives. Don't look at any of the units in the list as stand alone. Units to function in support of each other. I did not pick any weapon or unit randomly.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Aug 25 2013, 20:17

I honestly don't know the Chaos dex at all, but from what I could tell he took the warlord traits and whatever upgrades they have I guess (something he had to auto include for everyone). The allying into himself with more chaos allowed him 3 beefy HQ choices. He said that the supplement was really subpar and didn't do much for him. I think if he didn't take the supplement he would have had an extra 150-250 pts left over from the upgrades he was forced to take. That's easily another choice of something which would have made my job more difficult. However, my MC's proved to be very durable and wrecked in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon Aug 26 2013, 14:12

egorey wrote:
Notice, I do not use nightshields. Yep, they might  ( I say might) save me a raider or a ravager for turn. At the cost of sixty points (as I have six vehicles). I can use those points elsewhere. Also notice that I use my lucky Haemie (Harry is his name) with hexrifle and have hexrifles in my wrack squads. I will at one point discuss their benefits in 6ed more.
I'm not sure why you think all the Raiders have to have Nightshields.  I frequently only give them to a couple of my Raiders.  That used to be to the raiders carrying assault troops because those were the ones I figured really had to survive in order to perform their function of preserving the assault troops until contact.  Lately, I've been considering switching that to my gunboat Raiders, though, because the assault Raiders have to get in close enough that the Nightshields won't matter.  The gunboats can hover in the Nightshield sweet spot and shoot.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Mon Aug 26 2013, 15:00

malevolent wrote:
I'm not sure why you think all the Raiders have to have Nightshields.
Clearly I do not.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Tue Aug 27 2013, 00:10

08.26.2013

So I had an interesting conversation today with egorey about venoms and wracks. The conversation has led me to rethink my collection ideas. It will save me money in the end which is always a good thing. My plan is to convert my wyches that I have left to truborne with all dark lances (minimum 3 guys, 2 with lances) to give a boost to my T1 AT. I won't take any transports with them as its just unnecessary points and money on my end based on what I think I'd field in a list.

Here is where it gets better: I get a haemie and a 5 man wrack squad in a venom to fill out my last troop choice. The haemie is to make the wracks troops and goes with the grots and archon for an uber grot squad. I think I'll even try to convert the haemie from a wych myself.

So ultimately this means I will finish my army collection even sooner in a basic force organization sense. From here I would be able to make lists as I see fit with what I have. The only thing I may investigate in the future is a beastpack squad.


So based on this idea here is what I envision for a 1850 list based on my last list but changed up:
Archon (shadowfield and agoniser huskblade )
haemonculus (liquifier gun and venom blade)
4 grots in a raider (no upgrades for either)
2x 10 man warrior squad with cannon
2x 5 man wych squad with HWG in a raider
5 man wrack squad (liquifier gun, acothyst upgrade with hexrifle) in a venom (cannon upgrade of course)
2x Talos with liquifier and cannon

CWE allies:
spiritseer (no upgrades)
5 wraithguard with D-sythes! in a wave serpent with holofields
wraithknight (no upgrades)

Total points: 1850 exactly!

I think this list looks really good. I did lose the reavers but they didn't do much for me and didn't match the style of the overall list I think. (sorry mush!) The D-sythes are exciting for camping objectives as well as the wracks.

Please give me your thoughts guys!

***So after a small conversation with Mush I decided to drop the acothyst upgrade to save points and upgrade the archon to huskblade/VB which is more reliable on the charge at S4 due to the extra pain token he will have.

So I talked with Eg to get another opinion of course. And here is what I settled on: I want 4 grots, more attacks and wounds to keep the squad at T5 majority is important as the squad is a bomb. I had to drop the archons venom blade, keep no upgrades on the acothyst (went back to upgrading for the ld) and not upgrade to a power weapon on the haemie. I feel these are all reasonable changes.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Wed Aug 28 2013, 15:39

Never take advice from me Ligs. I nly pointed oiut why I use certain configurations. Look at my lists, lol. On that note I'm playing this on Sunday

== Nurgle by Nurgle ==

Great Unclean One (mlv1 - plague discipline,  greater reward, exalted reward ) 240 - warlord
Typhus 230
2 Mutilators, (mark of burgle) 122
2x 10 Plaguebearers (icon, instrument)  220
2x 10 Plague Zombies 100
Heldrake, (baleflamer) 170
2x Daemon Prince, (daemonic flight, mlv1-plague discipline, 2x greater reward, daemon of nurgle) 530
Chaos Land Raider (dirge caster) 235

== 1850 ==

GuO, Heldrake and Zombies and PBs in reserve. The list is okay. It is hardly OP. But it has a lot of toughness and plenty of weapons. I get screwed over when there is poor terrain or when my reserves just do not co- operate but with instrument icon that is usually not a problem. It happens though. I do love Typhus in an LR with the two Muts though. That is a nasty squad. Problem with this list is that it is quite random at times due to DSing the GUO and relying the 'Drake. The troops are also a problem but I will often take a portaglyph to help with that and spawn PBS.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 14:18

- update, it can be done Aug 29 -

So I threw a guantlet down to Jancoren of 40kUnorthodoxy fame. I loev the guy. I proposed a list designed to use both Harlequins and Mandrakes - two units being disparaged lately. I offered up a very rough idea and he honed it and I adjusted it to my taste. To quote him directly ...

jancoren wrote:
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Let us look at the list ...

- Drakes and Clowns -


Haemonculus Ancient, Liquifier Gun,, Power Axe 100
9 Mandrakes, Nightfiend 140

Autarch (Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask, Shard of Anaris) 130
7 Harlequins (3 Kisses, Shadowseer/Kiss, Troupe Master/Power Weapon, Death Jester) 202
Wave Serpent (TL Scattrlaser, Spirit Stones, Holofields) 145 (from storm guardians)

3x 5 Wracks (Liquifier Gun, Acothyst, Raider ((Disintegrator, Shock Prow, Flicker Field, Aether Sails, Torment Grenade Launcher) 465
10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion Guns) 110

2x 2 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flock 168

Crimson Hunter (Exarch, Pulse Laser, 2 Star Cannons) 180
3 War Walker (Scatterlaser, Starcannon ) 210

(1850)

He proposed an solitaire. I know there are a few fans of the solitaire out there. But =I have a Harlie squad, he is not my warlord and he is a bit of a tax (needed for those reserve rolls). So I would rather place him with the Harlequins. The Harlequins steal the WS from the Storm Guardians, btw. The Storm Guardians come in from reserves and hold the deployment zone with dual plasma. I have a lot of options to deploy with the Mandrakes. but I want that Haemie to get to them quickly.

The wrack squads are the key. He had four squads at 2000 - I feel comfortable with the three at 1850. We want them deployed back, raiders firing away. So the the Mandrakes, Harlequins and beast packs need to distract and confuse, the wracks need to push troops back, the War Walkers need to outflank to cause havoc. The Crimson Hunter is here to simply go after flyers or if not needed for flyers it will just fire its weapons at ground troops.

So another outside the box list to enjoy.


Last edited by egorey on Mon Dec 16 2013, 17:24; edited 7 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 14:39

I don't know eg....seems like a lot of points of upgrades on the raiders. I'd like to fight this list, I think it will have serious deficiencies against multiple wound creatures like MCs or any kind of mech spam list. I'd love to see a batrep.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 15:34

-- Re-thinking Raiders -


Raiders are expensive but everything has it's use in this list. The volume of fire is high - MCs will be making a lot of saves. They will fail some. I know shock prows and torment lauchers are not the flavour of the month but if I can pin a unit, nice. I have three ways to pin in my list - death jester, mandrakes, wave serpent. If my opponent makes a mistake he will pay for it. The shock prow adds D3 to the front armor of the raider for the ram so on it will be armor 11-13. Which brings the base str of your hit to str 9-11 plus d6. So I've destroyed predators with it. With aether sails it is a ramming machine. It can be my photon destroyer, lol. With the way that Jink and Ram are worded, you can take a jink save from your own ram so I'm getting a 5+ save. With aethersails i can target anything on the table. So I do indeed have AT in my list. Just not where you might expect it. On another note ... I was told that my Raider would take out a Wave Serpent because of the shields. Well, that means Wave Serpents will be keeping those St7, pinning, ignore cover shields up. So I don't have to ram it. I just have to threaten it.

Now a few more thoughts on 6ed. Death or Glory still works if you tank shock but if you do not pen and explode my vehicle I really do not care if I lose a hull point ( assuming I have more than one left). My vehicles are fast now with Flat Out moves and although I cannot tank shock or ram and Flat Out in the same phase my initial moves for my skimmers put me in distance of the entire board. This puts tank shocking pressure on backfield units with poor defences/leadership under pressure and it makes every vehicle wary of a ram.

I can also pre-measure now. Yahoo. In 5ed I was guessing the distance I needed to go. Now I can pre-measure and set up for a perfect ram ( max str) or a tank shock. This is a big issue. I can easily adjust my game plan when I know exactly what I need to do to get the most out of my skimmers. So the notion that a shock prow, chain snares, aether sails are expensive and unecessary upgrades needs a closer analysis and a re-evaluation.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 15:41

Haha, very interesting. And you may have some volume of fire but without a farseer I fear you may have issues being consistent enough...but we shall see!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 20:26

I don't think I've seen a DE list with so little poison shooting before. It's pretty much your skyboards isn't it? Anyway, I'd be concerned that your only beasts are RWF. They are prone to double toughness kills.

Dan

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Thu Aug 29 2013, 22:56

It's a fair comment. The beast packs harass. they are suicide units, I know. But if they get into assault watch out. They have a boat load of attacks (rending). And they can come to the aid of any unit. I just need to try and keep them safe so not give up first blood. A lot of units will be coming in from reserve  -either outflanking or from the board edge. With the autarch, turn two will be exciting as  i push back with my mandrakes, beast packs and harlies while my raiders and wave serpent sit back and fire.

That said Jancoren would rather see an extra mandrake squad over the beast packs as well. I feel the beast packs will provide cover for both the harlies and/or mandrakes and take over watch or counter charge if needed. Both have their pros and cons. Mandrakes are more durable overall but thebest pack has great utility. Both serve similar roles in the list.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   Sun Sep 01 2013, 21:01

== for the doubters - Sept 1st - drakes and clowns ==

I wanted to play my Nurgle list BUT everyone seems to think that an Eldar Iyanden list can handle my Drakes and Clowns. So

Me playing the Drakes and Clowns list above ... my opponent is playing this ...

Farseer(Warlord): EJB, Mantle, Singing Spear - 160
Spiritseer: Wraithforge Stone - 100

2x 3 WRJ - 102
2x 5 WG with D-scythes in a Wave Serpent with TL Scatterlasers, Holofields  - 790
5 WG with Wraithcannons in a Wave Serpent with TL Scatterlasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields - 315

2x Wraithknight - 480

Do I care? No. He has three units in serpents and a few WKs to threaten me. So let's see ... I'm going to trick this guy and get him to commit to all the wrong units. I'm near certain he will take the bait. I discussed y tactics in advance with Jancoron, btw, and we both felt I actually should win if all things fell in place. But this is 40k. Her might do something to dsurprise me. I'm expectingbhim to move up and try and threaten. This is what I want. If he sits back, well, this could be an issue.

I reserved my wracks/raiders, my crimson hunter and war walkers. I did not want to have him sit back and try and take them ut turn one. I baited his troops out of their transports with cheap easy targets, be pushing my razorwing flocks and haemie/mandrake squad forward ( i deployed mandrakes infiltrated just past my deployment zone where my haemie could join them turn one). I then used my reserves to hammer his list down. As expected he moved up turn one so he could get shots at my storm guardian wave serpent and then disembark turn two and shoot up my bait. He failed to take the wave serpent out but he was positioned to do damage on my beast packs.

Mandrakes lured a second squad threatening just behind my beast pack. His third WS moved towards my harlies (who against this guy started on foot). Turn two the Autarch brought the pain from reserves. His bikes in reserve. So my Hunter and War Walkers can in and took care of a WK in a turn. The second WK had to wait for me to dakka and rend it down ( happened turn two). So that left some exposed troops and wave serpents to deal with.

I had enough weaons to threaten them. By turn two I had one squad of WG and a WK down at the cost of some beasts and a hull point on my serpent.  Turn three I was able to deal with the second WK and another squad. He had taken his shields off  a serpent to fire some ignore cover shots at my mandrakes. I used the opportuniyty to ... YES, I rammed his butt. One less serpent. Turn three onwards was almost clean up. I had the walkwrs and Hunter behind him and now he knew to keep the shields up.  I took some early damage but it was spread around a few units. I was able to charge his WG squads taking damage by using a beast pack and the drakes to take overwatch and follow with my harlies. I also baleflaned first. My wracks moved to objectives. I lost both packs, half my mandrakes a harlie and two raiders.

But my storm guardians, war walkers, wracks, and crimson hunter still did the damage to take his list out. I never felt like it was in question. My only problem was taking out his jetbikes coming in from reserve and trying to steal objectives. I took one out. Contested the other objective. I could not kill his Seer but meh. It did not have targets by turn four of great value anyway. He did manage to  'gasp' slay my warlord because I'm an idiot and placed him in danger. But I got first blood, linebreaker and more objectives and kill points. So it was not a massacre. But it was not in doubt (at least in my mind). I felt I controlled the tempo and direction of the match right through.

Never doubt the power of drakes and harlies, lol. Okay they were not the stars of the list. But they did damage and contributed nicely.


Last edited by egorey on Mon Dec 16 2013, 17:26; edited 1 time in total
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