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 Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target

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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 12:57

So as we all know, the BRB states that no dice roll may be rerolled more than once. How does this interact with the rules of the Mantle and the order Fire On My Target? Since the Mantle gives you a reroll to cover saves, and the order forces you to reroll successful cover saves, you could easily find yourself in a reroll the reroll situation. Is this an example of codex>BRB, or does the only one reroll rule stand?

It does work out equitably if you can only reroll once, as there are only two circumstances where you would have to reroll the reroll, and each of those two are an advantage for one or the other player. For example:

My jetseer fails his cover save, rerolls it and makes it. Does he have to reroll the successful save?

Same jetseer makes his cover, rerolls it and fails. Does he get to reroll the fail?

It seems to me that the BRB rule should stand, but I'd love your perspective on it. I play against Guard fairly often, and would like to have this issue well thought out before it comes up.

Thanks!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 13:30

There was/is a similar situation mentioned in one of the FAQ's, although I can't recall which at this point. The answer was that the rules cancelled each other out and you just stick with the original result of the dice roll.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 15:31

Wasn't it one of the Tyranid re-roll things interacting with Eldar Farseers? That's my recollection.

Edit: Wasn't it Shadow and Runes? I feel that's right.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 21:11

I've had this happen with casting Misfortune on a unit that has Fortune on them. We handled it this way - first my opponent rerolled the failed saves with Fortune as usual, then rerolled them all with Misfortune, getting the final result. Though I would also accept that both effects simply cancel eachother out.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 21:55

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
I've had this happen with casting Misfortune on a unit that has Fortune on them. We handled it this way - first my opponent rerolled the failed saves with Fortune as usual, then rerolled them all with Misfortune, getting the final result. Though I would also accept that both effects simply cancel eachother out.

Nothing in the wording of Misfortune of Fortune allows you to cancel out the BRB rule of never rerolling a dice more than once but as long as you and your opponent were happy with that method of resolving it then fair play to you.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Sun Jun 16 2013, 22:36

It's an order of operations thing. I think this is how it works out.

1.) Roll initial cover saves
2.) Re-roll failed Saves converting failed saves into successful saves
3.) Re-roll all successful saves

The fact that the rolls specify Failed or Successful saves means that you are each re-rolling them only once.

You could reverse 2 and 3 above, but as long as you are re-rolling fails and saves 1x each only you are okay. Either way you are only re-rolling fails once and re-rolling successful ones only once.



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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 06:12

For example with the very common occureance of 2 Coteas and their reroll initiative stealing cancels eachother out. I'dd say this is a similar case. They cancel eachother so no rerolls.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 09:21

@Balisong wrote:
It's an order of operations thing. I think this is how it works out.

1.) Roll initial cover saves
2.) Re-roll failed Saves converting failed saves into successful saves
3.) Re-roll all successful saves

The fact that the rolls specify Failed or Successful saves means that you are each re-rolling them only once.

If I understand you correctly that's not what you're doing if you follow the sequence you set out though. Let's say you have 6 saves to make at 2+. Following your order:
1) You roll the dice and they come up 1,1,3,5,6,6
2) The 2 failed saves are rerolled and come up 2 and 4, which are both now successful saves
3) You reroll successful saves, which is now all 6 of them. This however involves rerolling 2 dice that have already been rerolled, which is not allowed.

Seems simplest either to just roll all the saves once or to roll them once and then reroll them all (which seems silly)

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 10:10

You would just roll your saves, then re-roll them all as one thing makes you re-roll the successful, and another the unsuccessful ones. It basically just means: 'Do it again!'

It would be quicker just to agree to cancel each other out though, as statistically it's the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 11:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
There was/is a similar situation mentioned in one of the FAQ's, although I can't recall which at this point. The answer was that the rules cancelled each other out and you just stick with the original result of the dice roll.
I believe it was the old Fateweaver rule being countered with Null Zone.
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 11:49

@Anggul wrote:
statistically it's the same.

Is it though? I am terrible at mathhammer, but I don't feel like it is. I can see how Shadow and the old RoW cancel, as they essentially do exactly the same thing with the dice. If this were a 4+ that was subject to the two rules then it would be equitable to cancel, but since it's almost always going to be a 2+ (5+ Jink from the Jetseer moving, -3 from Stealth and Shrouding from Mantle) I feel that the two rules cancelling each other out skews significantly one way or the other.

If I roll 6 dice, statistically I'll get 1 1, right? If I have to reroll my successful saves, statistically now the odds of getting another 1 are <1, but lets just say I get another 1 in the mix. Now I get to reroll those 2 1s, which, statistically, means I have a 66.66% chance of passing. I think that the two rules cancelling out favors the Guard player significantly.

But, I don't see anything in either rule that allows the breaking of the multiple reroll rule either. Neither, though, do I see anything saying that they cancel. The way that I interpret it is that since whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order of operations in the event of simultaneous actions (which I would consider both rerolls to be), that player gets to decide which of the rerolls is going to happen. Which also sucks, because that means that you are never going to get to reroll failed cover saves unless it's overwatch.

Definitely needs a FAQ.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 12:08

If you have 6 saves to make with a 2+ rerollable cover save, you'll statistically fail 1 before the reroll. Rerolling that die, you'll fail 1/6 times.

If you have to reroll successful saves and unsuccessful saves, you fail 1 before the reroll. After rerolling all 6 die, you will fail 1 time.

If you have to reroll nothing, you will fail 1 time.

So, should statistically be the same, I believe.
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 12:15

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
@Anggul wrote:
statistically it's the same.
The way that I interpret it is that since whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order of operations in the event of simultaneous actions (which I would consider both rerolls to be), that player gets to decide which of the rerolls is going to happen.

I don't think that applies here as the relevant section of the rules (page 9) only applies when "both players will have to do something at the same time". As it is only the player taking the casualties that is doing something (rolling saves) then I don't think that rule applies.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 12:19

Not to mention that neither effect interacts with the other. I can only reroll a dice once and each effect only interacts with certain results. I don't get to choose which takes effect because they interact with different results.

Essentially, you roll your saves then reroll the lot as I have to reroll successful and failed saves

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 13:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:


I don't think that applies here as the relevant section of the rules (page 9) only applies when "both players will have to do something at the same time". As it is only the player taking the casualties that is doing something (rolling saves) then I don't think that rule applies.

True, but both players sort of do have to do something at the same time. The Eldar player utilizes his power to force a reroll, and the Guard player uses his order to force a reroll. Both rerolls are forced at the same time, and if only one reroll is allowed, the player whose turn it is would choose, to my way of thinking.

Massaen, I'm afraid that you may be correct, but I don't like it.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 13:22

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:


I don't think that applies here as the relevant section of the rules (page 9) only applies when "both players will have to do something at the same time". As it is only the player taking the casualties that is doing something (rolling saves) then I don't think that rule applies.

True, but both players sort of do have to do something at the same time. The Eldar player utilizes his power to force a reroll, and the Guard player uses his order to force a reroll. Both rerolls are forced at the same time, and if only one reroll is allowed, the player whose turn it is would choose, to my way of thinking.

Looking at the wording of "Fire on my Target!" it seems that the order is given prior to the shooting attack so the IG player is not doing anything at all when the time comes to roll saves so page 9 is not applicable. Only the targeted player is doing anything at that point. Massaen is also correct that the two rules effect different dice so there is no conflict here unless you attempt to do them one after the other and reroll a reroll. If you simply do what each rule tells you at the same time it works fine.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 13:27

@Massaen wrote:
Essentially, you roll your saves then reroll the lot as I have to reroll successful and failed saves

Spot on, so you might as well just roll all the saves once and not make any re-rolls (seeing as you would be re-rolling the entire batch anyway the effect is the same).

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 18:38

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Essentially, you roll your saves then reroll the lot as I have to reroll successful and failed saves

Spot on, so you might as well just roll all the saves once and not make any re-rolls (seeing as you would be re-rolling the entire batch anyway the effect is the same).

Exactly. I don't know why this even came up, the rules effect two specific different results, not the same result like the old Runes of Witnessing vs Shadow in the Warp thing where they both effected the same roll.

The failures and the success happen at the same time, but are two different results effected by two different rules, so you just re-roll everything.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Mon Jun 17 2013, 19:39

the two that canceled each other out was Nids's shadows of the warp and old runes of whitnessing. As both add dice to the psychic roll... Not the same as this at all...

Its simple. You roll your cover saves. Then re-roll all successes due to fire on my target, and re-roll all failures due to the mantle. And you get your end result.

Basically, roll those dice twice, and get your ending result Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 04:11

@Anggul wrote:
Exactly. I don't know why this even came up.

It came up because I was trying to figure something out, and hoping that my brethren could help me. Your snark is quite unappreciated.

Thanks, everyone else, for your input. I'm still unsure about the full breadth of this issue, as there are a few circumstances unaddressed. For example, if I pass all of my initial saves and am thusly forced to reroll them all, does that entitle me to reroll any subsequent failures since I have not yet rerolled any failures? To me, this seems like rerolling a reroll. But according to the arguments above, it's fair play since I am now rerolling fails instead of saves. With the same dice. Again.

Do you see my dilemma? I truly am not trying to be argumentative, or be RAW guy. I'm just trying to hash this out with my mostly intelligent and insightful peers.

Again, thanks for helping!

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 06:49

It's quite simple. Neither of the quoted rules overrides the limit on rerolls; you can only ever reroll once.

If you really want to play it strictly RAW: Roll your Cover Saves. Ignore the results. Re-roll all of your Cover Saves. This is your final result.

Or, you could save time and just roll once, and that result stands. Same net result.
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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 07:13

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
Thanks, everyone else, for your input. I'm still unsure about the full breadth of this issue, as there are a few circumstances unaddressed. For example, if I pass all of my initial saves and am thusly forced to reroll them all, does that entitle me to reroll any subsequent failures since I have not yet rerolled any failures? To me, this seems like rerolling a reroll. But according to the arguments above, it's fair play since I am now rerolling fails instead of saves. With the same dice. Again.

Let me try to clear up some misconceptions and answer your question.

1. You can't re-roll a re-roll. That means of the dice rolled they can only be re-rolled once, regardless of which rule forces the re-roll.

2. One rule forces re-rolls of passes, the other allows re-rolls of fails.

3. If your roll a batch of dice, you will want to re-roll the failed dice, and your opponent the successful dice. Neither of you can re-roll the dices either of you re-roll. So the second result stands. The result of the dice you re-roll stand, and the result of the dice he gets you to re-roll stand.

4. As a result of the above all dice regardless of being successes or failures will get re-rolled once. This means the result of the first batch of rolled dice will always be irrelevant and have no effect on the second batch of dice. They are two separate events that have no effect on each other and therefore there is no conditional probability the way their is when you normally re-roll (i.e I re-roll my failed saves).

5. By extrapolating the above, you need only roll all the dice once and not re-roll any of them.

Hope that explains things better. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 09:14

I think Mush has pretty much hit the nail on the head here and has explained far more clearly what I have been trying to say throughout the thread. Hope that answers Tony's question.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 10:22

No, I do understand all of your points. But what of my example where I either passed or failed all of my rolls? If I roll all 1s, and then reroll them all and save them all, would I then be forced to reroll all of my successful saves, as I have not yet rerolled successes? I feel as though that's rerolling a reroll, but according to the logic above rerolling success and rerolling failure are two different rerolls.

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PostSubject: Re: Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target   Tue Jun 18 2013, 10:40

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
No, I do understand all of your points. But what of my example where I either passed or failed all of my rolls? If I roll all 1s, and then reroll them all and save them all, would I then be forced to reroll all of my successful saves, as I have not yet rerolled successes? I feel as though that's rerolling a reroll, but according to the logic above rerolling success and rerolling failure are two different rerolls.
It doesn't matter what the reroll is for, you can only ever reroll a die once.
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