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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 10:44

I've been going through the new eldar codex now I've had a bit of time with it, and the above seems to me to be a straightforward reason why we'll see dire avengers becoming very rare.

The basic DA squad is roughly equivalent in points to 4 Windriders or three with a shuriken cannon. The jetbikes have basically the same range and twin linked catapults, and a better armour save. In fact the only area where I think the dire avengers benefit is when they get charged, which jetbikes are better at avoiding anyway.

What do you guys think, any reasons why you'd take Dire Avengers instead of jetbikes?

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 10:55

Sticking DA Wave serpent move close to enemy, disembark, take laser lock with serpent, then put out all fire and serpent shield on enemy unit: Fire dire avengers and then use battle focus to move dire avengers in cover. I.E. Battle focus: You cannot use that with jetbikes unfortunately. And you can with that annoy incredible well opponent.

Its all about Eldar shenanigans, mobility and trickery that I still think I will continue running 10 Dire Avengers in all my lists.

Jetbikes are more forgiving than dire avengers, higher save and toughness makes it easier to play windrider style.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 11:11

@thejamppa wrote:
Sticking DA Wave serpent move close to enemy, disembark, take laser lock with serpent, then put out all fire and serpent shield on enemy unit: Fire dire avengers and then use battle focus to move dire avengers in cover. I.E. Battle focus: You cannot use that with jetbikes unfortunately.

Except that jetbikes can move twice as far in the assault phase (2D6) to achieve exactly the same result, and we're not exactly short of places to get wave serpents.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 13:46

LD is the big difference. The serpent also does something the bikes can't do. It makes avengers 100% more survivable than the bikes to small arms fire while embarked.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 14:17

@Massaen wrote:
LD is the big difference. The serpent also does something the bikes can't do. It makes avengers 100% more survivable than the bikes to small arms fire while embarked.
Exactly. The Serpent is also one of the most resilient transports out there right now and fires a crapload of twin-linked shots if you upgrade it with a scatter laser and shuriken cannon. It really complements a DE skimmer force rather well, but gets pricy fast.

So, if you want to MSU and/or get a Jetseer in your DE force as cheap as possible, go for 2x Windrider Jetbikes. But if you want resiliency and firepower, go for (Avengers with) Wave Serpents.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 15:21

Not quite the question I was asking, though I accept that they're the cheapest way of getting a wave serpent into the list.

My point was 5 dire avengers cost about the same as four bikes or three with a shuriken cannon. Once you start adding in the wave serpent you also need to consider what options you could get for that sort of price to back up the jetbikes, like a fire prism etc.

So for the basic price without adding in costly extras like the wave serpent, why would you take dire avengers over jetbikes? So far the only argument I can see is that they have one extra point of leadership.

Cons: They don't put out any more hits, their range isn't better, they're less tough and their armour save is worse, and they have less scope to claim end game victory points.

Pros: they have higher leadership, and they are more able to engage in defensive close combat, so can hold home objectives better against combat armies.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 16:24

The dire avengers are easier to hide out of line of sight.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 18:05

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
What do you guys think, any reasons why you'd take Dire Avengers instead of jetbikes?

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 18:41

Windriders look decent, you only have to place real guardian on them, instead of that ugly.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 19:08

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I've been going through the new eldar codex now I've had a bit of time with it, and the above seems to me to be a straightforward reason why we'll see dire avengers becoming very rare.

The basic DA squad is roughly equivalent in points to 4 Windriders or three with a shuriken cannon. The jetbikes have basically the same range and twin linked catapults, and a better armour save. In fact the only area where I think the dire avengers benefit is when they get charged, which jetbikes are better at avoiding anyway.

What do you guys think, any reasons why you'd take Dire Avengers instead of jetbikes?

The clear answer is that you can get wave serpents cheaper. It's a nasty gunboat that can have a squad of scoring troops nestled inside. It's like a predator with transport capacity of a landraider.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 20:59

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I've been going through the new eldar codex now I've had a bit of time with it, and the above seems to me to be a straightforward reason why we'll see dire avengers becoming very rare.

The basic DA squad is roughly equivalent in points to 4 Windriders or three with a shuriken cannon. The jetbikes have basically the same range and twin linked catapults, and a better armour save. In fact the only area where I think the dire avengers benefit is when they get charged, which jetbikes are better at avoiding anyway.

What do you guys think, any reasons why you'd take Dire Avengers instead of jetbikes?

The clear answer is that you can get wave serpents cheaper. It's a nasty gunboat that can have a squad of scoring troops nestled inside. It's like a predator with transport capacity of a landraider.

The wave serpent costs the same whichever unit you take it with, and as I've already pointed out, that's not the question I asked.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sun Jun 09 2013, 23:56

Ok well.. in that case id say they are better at aggressively taking and holding an objective. Also if you have a farseer the avengers with a shimmer shield make a good baby sitting unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Mon Jun 10 2013, 06:33

DA's exist to fill waveserpants and battle for objectives. True, you can get waveserpants elsewhere, but your only options to have that serpent filled with scoring troops at the start of the game are DA's, wraithguard, and guardians. And lets face it. Guardians still suck. Buffing guardian offense didn't change the fact that they die like standard guardsmen, at almost twice the cost. Also, wraithguard are good, but 5 unupgraded wraiths will cost you only slightly less then 10 DA's with a fully upgraded exarch. And you have to factor in the spirit-seer point tax for wraiths as well. If your cool with that, then go for it. It seems a bit too spendy point-wise for me though.

Back on the topic of DA's, you get 4+ armor, a better shuriken gun, and a sargent with the diresword + disarming strike. 18+d6 rending threat range + an I6 AP2 WS5 Disarming Strike Challenger + the ability to withstand bolter fire makes them the definitive choice if you want to play "transporthammer40k" with Eldar. All that remains to decide is whether or not 13 points per model + upgrade costs + transport cost is worth it compared to the choices other army's get. Which is a legitimate choice to make when a squad of IG meltavets in 4+ armor cost only 130 points.

Basically, if you want to run waveserpants, pick dire avengers (or wraiths if you don't mind their costs, weakness, and the spiritseer tax). If you don't want serpants, take jetbikes or rangers. Thats really all it boils down to.

Remember, if your entire army is in serpents, that means that the enemy HAS to crack through the serpantshields to get you, as opposed to just shooting at the squishier units you have exposed until you lower your shields to attack. You'll get called cheap, but who cares what your opponents think? The stupid monkeighs.

All that said, I still like jetbikes the most myself. But the other troops still have their places. Except guardians. Ugh.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Mon Jun 10 2013, 07:03

I prefer the bikes over the DA's but not gonna make a move till the new Eldar bikes come out.
All of my DA's are painted evil as commorragh and fit right in so that works for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Mon Jun 10 2013, 07:41

Long story short bikes needed to be that damn cheap to compete with the awesomeness of wave serpents.Anyway aside from the obvious serpent reason its worth noting the bikes have pseudo range with their movement compared to avenger catapults guaranteed +6" which does matter for rapid fire range finding cover and charges. Consider avengers to average 10.5" on battle trance vs bikes 7". Lastly bike units have large footprints when taken in multiples. I got tired of my ravenwing for this very reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Thu Jun 13 2013, 14:24

" Guardians still suck. Buffing guardian offense didn't change the fact that they die like standard guardsmen, at almost twice the cost"


If you run them naively yes..    Guardians have only 1 worse save and that is about the only difference to DA , you could say DA are guardsman with +1 armour instead of heavy weapons  at triple the cost...


Trick with guardians is the warlock for the +2 conceal save and run them in big groups of 20.. Use cover ( or behind others)  for a 3+ save , where you can then run out and do huge amounts of damage , sure you will take it but thats why you have big groups..  


Take 20 guards (100) vs 20 Guardians (180) or 10 DA( 130 or 245 with Wave serpent)    they move in   , for 10 hits  , for Guardians in open without conceal ,  armour saves 3.33  ( for DA 5)  , then 50% wound ..  so Guardians loose  3.333  ( DA would loose  2.5)  , on return fire  Guardians get 33 shots  , for 22 hits (   10 DA would be only 10 hits) ,  killing 14 Guard and they will not make their Leadership.  This doesnt count Heavy weapon platforms or  Warlocks and this is with guard shooting first.. If given a chance the Guardians would assault the guards and kill them in CC. So IMHO  Guardians are much better than Avengers and you should run 20 to make the most of the warlock.  Not saying avengers are bad its just blocks of 20 Guardians are  fast  , hard to stop and inflict good damage.


Brom , I dont think Wave serpents are that great..I think they are good but super expensive. If you use the weapon then your going to get taken down because you dont have the shield.  If you dont use the weapon no one will fire on you  , just take out the rest of the army and it doesnt do more than CHimera spam but for a lot more points.  So average tank or expensive Chimera .. And personally Avengers are too crapy ( too close to guard) to waste a Wave serpent on.. maybe Dragons or Wraith Guard.  If your whole army is in serpents it will be tiny and if you have any other vehicles / support they will get taken out first..


Agree on foot print of bikes. 
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Fri Jun 14 2013, 12:53

Dire Avengers are the core of my army, and hands down my favorite 40k unit. They are fast, accurate, good range with very reliable leadership, great exarch powers, and now have a deadly offensive edge with Battle Focus, and the new bladestorm. Their requisite Wave Serpent is a beast defensivley shrugging off all manner of firepower and penetrating hits especially with holofields.

The reason I prefer them over Jetbikes, is their durability and range. You can be well outside of charge distance with the DA's to use them, and then Battle Focus away, using the Wave Serpent as additional cover as well as a fire base. Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents are just fantastic in this addition and I'd never play without them.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Fri Jun 14 2013, 18:28

DA exarch powers are ok, but I wouldn't say they're great. Their biggest advantage is counter attack, and the fact that they get that just as well without an exarch devalues it somewhat as a squad leader.

Wave serpents can be tough, but reasonable target discipline will take them down through glancing hits alone.

Battle focus is definitely a boost for them I agree, but not significantly greater than the jetbike's assault move, both units should be able to move, shoot and then boost back out of charge range. Jetbikes are faster, more accurate (twin linked catapults remember) and also get bladestorm. Not forgetting that they're more durable (unless you lock the DAs away in a transport thus meaning they're useless most of the game) and better at assaulting to claim objectives.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that Dire Avengers are rubbish, I just think they lost a little of their appeal in this codex and wouldn't take them in preference to jetbikes. Make their catapults assault 3 and I'd be more inclined to take them again.

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 07:39

Agree,they are not bad but no longer the backbone good for a flank to grab cover. Two units of 10 and wave serpents. Is over 500 points. That's 2 units of 20 guardians with locks and heavy weapons.and 3-6 bikes which present massive threat that's hard to take down
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 17:51

Bikes are crazy good value now but I disagree wave serpents are not that good, although the contents may vary in value I admit and situation dependent. A IMO Serpents now are among the top few dedicated transports in the game, maybe bested only by our own. 135 for an av12 fast skimmer with 4+ and defensive shield that turns into 2-3 60" twin linked auto cannons is pretty nuts. Its expensive but in return is fast durable and has strong offensive capability and can transport infantry. Predators look pretty sad next to one, landspeeders and even devilfish too. Most armies would pay the additional pts in a heartbeat for those upgrades. Its a freakin anni barge with 4+ against lance weaponry better against melta too and with similar damage output. Literally a dedicated transport anni barge. Puh.
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 18:21

@Brom wrote:
that turns into 2-3 60" twin linked auto cannons is pretty nuts.

More like 36" range twinlinked auto cannons, as the scatter laser only has 36" range, anything further away and the shots won't be twinlinked. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 18:56

Ya fair enough and actually night scythes trump serpents too. All that said dark eldar have the most amazing rides around. Were a codex of transports that just happen to require units to unlock!
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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 19:02

@Brom wrote:
Were a codex of transports that just happen to require units to unlock!

There should be a "ghost ship" special character that lets you field squadrons of empty transports. An army of empty raiders/venoms would be hilarious. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Sat Jun 15 2013, 19:17

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Brom wrote:
Were a codex of transports that just happen to require units to unlock!

There should be a "ghost ship" special character that lets you field squadrons of empty transports. An army of empty raiders/venoms would be hilarious. Smile

And very dark eldar, though it would have to have some special rule like no infantry units are allowed in an army that contains ghost ships. At the end of the game each player rolls a die, if the DE player rolls higher, then while the opposition were distracted by the ghost ships, the archons warriors snuck in and stole the enemies (ships/families/loot/insert race specific item of value here) and therefore win the game by default.Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Dire avengers vs Windriders    Mon Jun 17 2013, 07:03

@Brom wrote:
Bikes are crazy good value now but I disagree wave serpents are not that good

I dont doubt they are a tough  transports ,  but Avengers are too crappy to justify such a transport..and if you want a gun by the tanks . If you go like the OP and have Exarc and Holofied your paying over 300 points to deliver 10 MEQ 1 W , 3T , 4+ Save, 2 18"  models , 10 grey hunters in a drop pod are 185.  now 10 Termies , or paladins or an archon and 10 incubi and you would be rocking. However you still cant assault till turn 3 .. Wraith guard are pretty good though since you can put S10 attacks where you want..  I do like to get 1 tranport as he can move guys around and provide some cover.

Also the shield gun on them is pretty useless the moment you use it is the turn they will focus fire on you else you get ignored. So you are either a crappy tank or a tough expensive transport with ok weapons.
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