HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)

Go down 
AuthorMessage
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 14:26

Im new to this place, gotta say its pretty fantastic to find a forumn dedicated to the most wicked race in the universe, and i would like to ask you vets about something that plagues me on a regular basis here at my local gaming area. Cheating.

I've been collecting and painting warhammer models since 1997 so i have seen all the changes and goodies and baddies along the way but i always take each new rulebook and give it a couple reads to make sure i know what im doing and that i give my opponents a break by showing them i can play the game correctly. unfortunately that isnt the case around here at either local gaming store as i find more often that not i am playing people who flagrantly make it up as they go so to speak or even flat out cheat. Here is an example from a game i had on saturday...
So to start off we roll to deploy, he gets first turn, and we both deploy. Then as i turn to pick up my dice from my bag he starts moving his orks, jumping right into the game. Now i have vect who gives that tasty 4+ sieze the initiative roll so i do the whoa whoa whoa dance and say im seizing hold your horses. This clown looks at me and says its too late i alreadly started moving, and he wouldnt back down.. so strike 1.
Next comes my turn when i begin to blast his orks with unmitigated fury, and yes it was sublime, although here is where it goes south... he tells me since it is night fight he gets shrouded over 24" and i say ok but i have NIGHT VISION which means my guys dont care seeing as how the rules state that it grants the ingnore effects of night fight. he then proceeds to argue and fight over it and i finally just say whatever lets continue. so strike 2. then as i plop the dark gate with my haemonculus on his blob of 30 boyz and mekboy he tells me they get a 4+ cover save due to the mekboyzs custom force field or whatever you call it. I say baloney its a 5+ i played orks before, which leads him to tell me it was FAQ'd to a 4+. so on to strike 2.5, now as im blasting away his orks i see that he isnt removing the closest models which would be the rokkit launcher and the big shootas but the boyz just behind them. again i call him out and have to put up with more arguing.. strike 2.95, then on his turn the waaaagh! he says they all get to move, run and then assault. i also say that is rubbish show me the rules. so after that arguement i say fine go ahead... bring your boyz to my vect and bloodbrides lets dance.
Now im sure you vets are saying "well why didnt you just pack up and leave at the first flagrant cheating attempt?" and i completely agree with you, unfortunately my 200 dollar commission i am painting for this guy kind of prohibits me from speaking my mind, i am a Marine believe me i have no problem telling someone to fix themselves. and more importantly i was wrecking face even after all this nonsense he was pulling and it made it that much more satisfying. Just like in the DE novels in the wych cult arena where they let the mon-keih slaves think they are getting a chance to escape before crushing them.

so on to more of what happened, i roll to bring my razorwing on turn 2, i roll a 3 and place it on the table, he freaks out. What are you doing! thats a 3! you cant bring on reserves unless you get a 5! so at this point i call a spade a spade, show him the entry in the rulebook. (i had to do this many many times) listen to more arguing and crying. Then on to the assault phase where im looking at 3 blobs of boyz and my hungry wyches, bloodbrides, incubi and wracks to soak up fire . it was a beautiful sight let me tell you. so i would charge in with the fodder and he would consolidate after killing them off in cc and burning that overwatch... yes? Ok, so then i charge in with the moneymakers (ie:vect and bloodbrides/ incubi 2nd) and he says "HEY!" if you had told me you would charge them with your incubi next i would have moved my orks here to consolidate to get away." Excuse me? let you know in what order i am going to attack you? tell you my battle plan ahead of time? have you gone daft?
So just out of spite i say ok go ahead move them, put em anywhere you want, go on now. so me moves his orks and i roll two fives for charge distance and BAM! chicken's done. (or in this case ork). then he called the game after that, saying his girlfriend got of work and he had to leave.
Now i wouldnt mention this ordinarily but this seems to happen all of the time and it puts me back in my studio just painting my models rather than actually getting to play with them when they are done, which is sad because it is such a great game. I do get to play with some really great players mind you, but its very rare as they are always busy or live far away. Adeption is always a great experience but that is once a year.
So how do you guys deal with these people? how do you find or recruit new players that actually have an honest bone in their body? how do you regularly have a good time playing this hobby and keep it fun? i would love any input.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
Evil Space Elves
Haemonculus Ancient
avatar

Posts : 3711
Join date : 2011-07-13
Location : Santa Cruz, ca

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 14:57

"i roll two fives for charge distance and BAM! chicken's done. "

I am going to shout that EVERY time I roll 10+ for a charge distance Razz
As to your question, I am an older player that has little in the way of free time. Because of this I have to be selective in choosing people that I play with my limited gaming time. I recently switched LFGS's (a newer store closer to my home opened up) and had to start the whole process of picking up new opponents after playing pretty regularly at the old store(it was 45 miles from here). I've found that striking up conversations with people that are playing against each other while watching their game for a short bit is a pretty good way of getting a read on them. If they are humorless dolts that want to argue every rule while being an ass it should manifest itself pretty quickly. As to the blatant denial of basic rules, well, don't play guys like that regardless of what commission they might throw your way. You're already throwing away some of your time painting(regardless of what money you might be making; I don't do commissions anymore for a reason Mad ) Painting for D-bags like this and wasting your time playing against them will kill your love for the hobby. BTW, commission painting burned me out so hard on gaming that I had hung up painting and gaming for nearly 2 years before the new DE line reeled me back in Twisted Evil

The easiest solution would be to play in a league. Leagues usually meet on a designated night and have a person running them that can tell McCheaters like the ork player that denial does not rewrite the rulebook Razz You also get a chance to meet great new people (and some not-so-great people that you learn to avoid) by playing the pool of a league.

_________________

"Solutions are good, how many dark eldar archons can you find sitting in their throne rooms whining that they used to rule the universe? Exactly."  -The Burning Eye
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast
My Dark Eldar Project Log
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7226
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 14:59

I'm not sure even a $200 commission would have prevented me from calling this guy out as a cheat and a loser. What a muppet!

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 15:45

Yea as you think about it the nagging question of why the hell didnt i just call this guy out gets louder and louder with every person that i talk to. on the flip side it almost became a parody, like watching reality tv and subconsciously craving more and more drama to laugh about with your mates later.

As for the league advice, i have tried that a couple times now and these are the clowns in the league! in fact while i was playing this 'game gone wild' against the ork player i repeatedly asked the manager and owner of the store to clarify rules for us and he had no clue about 40k, just shrugged.
At the other store it is worse because you have a select group along with the owner who have formed their own posse so to speak and any tournament they host you are always getting favoritism and garbage rulings. Its like i told my wife last night "I mine as well just play with myself."

now after reading that i must clarify, i mine as well play against myself in the game of warhammer.

Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
spooniermist
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 25
Join date : 2013-05-23

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 16:19

Man, that sounds like an awful experience, I'm sorry you had to waste your time with such a loser...

I don't generally come across this sort of thing, as I usually am the only person that knows the rulebook inside and out in our collective, so my word is usually taken as gospel (not that I'd ever abuse it!).

That said, the few occasions I know someone's bullshitting, I might let the first few times slip, but after the 3rd or so blatant disregard of rules, I ask for them to show me where it says that rule. That said, no way in the Warp I'd let an opponent get away with not letting me seize the initiative on 4+ with Vect, that's one of the best reasons to take him!
Back to top Go down
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 16:36

i completely agree with your philosophy of knowing the rulebook inside out spooniermist because you can just call them on each and every blatant disregard of the rules by showing the page and the rule in the BRB.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
Skyboard surfer
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 154
Join date : 2013-02-20
Location : Enfield Webway

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 16:42

Ultimately i think you did the right thing to poilitely state your case and the concede the point with good grace. Then never play the prat again, "sorry I'm washing the cat tonight".

_________________
When my cats aren't happy, I'm not happy. Not because I care about their mood but because I know they're just sitting there thinking up ways to get even.
Back to top Go down
shadowseercB
Wych
avatar

Posts : 538
Join date : 2012-10-21
Location : Los Angeles

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 17:12

@dino999 wrote:
Yea as you think about it the nagging question of why the hell didnt i just call this guy out gets louder and louder with every person that i talk to. on the flip side it almost became a parody, like watching reality tv and subconsciously craving more and more drama to laugh about with your mates later.

As for the league advice, i have tried that a couple times now and these are the clowns in the league! in fact while i was playing this 'game gone wild' against the ork player i repeatedly asked the manager and owner of the store to clarify rules for us and he had no clue about 40k, just shrugged.
At the other store it is worse because you have a select group along with the owner who have formed their own posse so to speak and any tournament they host you are always getting favoritism and garbage rulings. Its like i told my wife last night "I mine as well just play with myself."

now after reading that i must clarify, i mine as well play against myself in the game of warhammer.


I completely know the feeling. Its so hard to find the few players that dont cheat. And on top of that its hard to play with the players that you like because people arent always available at the times you can play.
Back to top Go down
commandersasha
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 377
Join date : 2012-12-26
Location : Wimbledon, London

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 19:26

As a busy working man, and father, and Scout Leader, my gaming time is too precious, and too vital to my sanity, to waste on unenjoyable gaming sessions.

I have been very lucky with my gaming group, although I think I engineered that luck: I advertised on the big Space Marine forum BolterAndChainsword, in their "find a local opponent" section, and specifically stated that I wanted 30yrs or older players, with a competitive-friendly attitude. I also specified that I was a nights and weekend working person, so mid-week daytime gaming was my preference.

A couple of guys responded, I played one, and found him a little too power-gaming, and we didn't play again. The other is now my best gaming buddy, and 3 years later we have a 30-strong Facebook group to arrange one-on-one games, Apocalypse weekends and other geekery!

Spreasd your opponent base, then make sure you get repeat games with the guys you like, the social aspect of it will help your network of like-minded players grow, and you can afford to be more choosy!

Lastly, major kudos to you for remaining civil, generously letting him get his way in the name of peace, and for not forcing the donut to eat his own models! You're a Marine? The guy's lucky to be walking...!

;-)
Back to top Go down
Crazy_Ivan
Wych
avatar

Posts : 506
Join date : 2012-04-10
Location : Wellingborough

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 21:22

Sorry to hear tat you ave had such a bad gaming experience, I too fortunately have a close gaming group we all very sporting. If we can't find the rule in question when we are playing we roll for it then look it up after, there always at least one thing that comes up every game.
Back to top Go down
infamousme
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 53
Join date : 2013-05-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV (formerly of San Diego, CA)

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 06 2013, 21:36

What base are you stationed at? if it's pendelton and you are playing that local store there then I fully know exactly what you are talking about... horrible gaming environment with piss poor players.
Back to top Go down
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Fri Jun 07 2013, 15:15

Im retired, or on reserve status as they call it so im in indiana going to school but i know exactly what you mean about the pendleton area. South Bend indiana by notre dame had the best gaming club i have ever seen. on a regular league 40k day they would have 20+ people show up who were there to have fun but im stuck down in southern indiana.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
shadowseercB
Wych
avatar

Posts : 538
Join date : 2012-10-21
Location : Los Angeles

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Fri Jun 07 2013, 17:50

When someone has to leave especially that guy who does it all the time that means he forfeits and you win.

_________________
20,000 Dark Eldar
25,000 Eldar
7,000 Mechanicum
3,500 Harlequin
Back to top Go down
Black Death
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 264
Join date : 2012-10-02
Location : West Texas

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Wed Jun 12 2013, 08:53

I have been in your shoes many times. Our local store doesn't really cater to 40k anymore other then new release models and orders. Occasionally we get a tourney but for the most part, no in store gaming. So I closed up my garage and put in 2 tables. On most Monday nights there are anywhere from 2-8 guys in my gaming circle playing. On every other sunday nights we mostly play warhammer fantasy. Its been really good with just mostly misunderstandings of some rules, you gotta admit some of the wording in the BRB is vague, or mis reading something in the armies dex's. Nothing bad by any means and everyone usually leaves happy and satisfied. I know not everyone has a room or room to put in tables but sometimes this may help to weed out the un-desirables. Happy gaming

_________________
" Dismemberment, mutalation and torture. These are the good things in life. Shall I show you?" Succubus Morna Fateweaver of the Cult of Black Death
Back to top Go down
Nappen
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 249
Join date : 2012-09-22

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Wed Jun 12 2013, 13:04

I 100% agree with your frustration and would not have backed down as easily, even for the 200 dollar commission. I must admit, I have not had this kind of player before, but like a lot on this thread I just don't have time to play with those kind of folks. I am floored that in face of the rulebook he would still not back down.

For his waaagh issue, sounds like he was using old fleet rules. Since for a waaagh all ork units get fleet he would have been right in fifth, but since fleet changed he is now wrong. Sounds like he just can't believe in the new rules. But, that makes it worse, because he must have been playing long enough to know better for all of this. Not sure how you stood there.

I am a little confused about how you ran the CC. You declare all charges before moving to the fight subphase (page 22), but sounds like you declared a charge, resolved CC then declared next charge. So, if you moved on to the fight subphase, you should not have been able to charge with your incubi or bloodbrides. Unless he killed them all with overwatch, then he would not get the consolidation move, as that does not happen until after the fight sub-phase-which you have not reached yet. You are absolutely right that you don't have to tell him ahead that you will charge with another unit- HOW he didn't realize you would is another question all together. But you have to do all charges before resolving the CC fighting.
Back to top Go down
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Wed Jun 12 2013, 13:56

That was another rule that i had taken up with him as well as the store owner who was standing right there.  you declare all charges and then do the fighting in the next phase in this edition, but as usual they argue and tell me im wrong. so its basically just a giant ball of cheese that needs to be kicked out the window and forgotten.


ps: does your picture of a bear have his wang showing mr. nappen?
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
Herbert West
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 129
Join date : 2013-06-10
Location : Somewhere in East France

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Wed Jun 12 2013, 15:41

In 5 years, we had 3 guys of that kind at my store. But because all of our players know each other well (tournaments, having beers, diners, painting/bad movies nights, ...), we speak about every game we played, and so, if someone is cheating, every body knows it very quick and stops playing with him. Also, at every game, there's often something between 2 and 5 players who just come to watch and tchat, so the player can't really cheat without being caught.


About the 200$... i don't know. If I truly needed that money, no choice... But if not, I think i would have go away from that table. Game and working as a painter are two really different things, if he's not able to be a good looser (don't know if the expression "bon perdant" exist in english...) and wanna take his revenge by taking back his stuff, then let him go, he doesn't deserve any of your attention.

_________________
"There is no good. There is no evil. There is only flesh."

Back to top Go down
Jack Frost
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 109
Join date : 2013-05-01
Location : Corespur

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Thu Jun 13 2013, 14:37

I like this thread! Too bad about your cheat.
I've been around most of my local hobby stores and bunkers and have seen your scenario go down too many times. That is why I don't play with strangers.
There is a lot a good advice up top in regards to finding likable gaming candidates.
When I read stuff like this I think "I am very lucky to have the gaming group I do"
Good luck.
Game on.

-Jack-

_________________
-Jack-
Back to top Go down
http://jmsjacobsen@gmail.com
FullDE
Hellion


Posts : 94
Join date : 2013-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Fri Jun 14 2013, 20:11

In my group I have a player who does simular to what the op discribed. I let it go the first time figuring maby he was misinformed. But he kept making rules up, and wouldn't correct it when corrected. Now I just stopped taking him to the club. Everyone makes rules mistakes, even I do, but there's a difference between making a mistake and outright cheating.
Back to top Go down
Mr Believer
Wych
avatar

Posts : 727
Join date : 2011-09-11
Location : Nottinghamshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Sat Jun 15 2013, 00:21

I totally sympathise with you in this situation - someone says a rule works a certain way, and you think "Well, it's a pretty big book, I don't want to go flipping through it for ages, plus I'll lose face if I'm wrong..." As well as the rules being extensive, knowing all the other codices is a big ask too - who are we to know that the opponent we've just picked up is playing Sisters of Battle correctly (or, for that matter, WHY they're playing Sisters of Battle). I always like to ask people when I start the game if they've played Orks/Dark Eldar/Eldar before, so I know if I should explain stuff as I'm going along. All you can really do is hope your opponents will extend the same courtesy!

That kustom force field thing is totally wrong though. Everything else he did I could kind of excuse as him mashing up old rules with new, or misinterpreting stuff, but that one instance puts everything else he did in a harsher light. The FAQ made the kustom force field worse, as it was always 5+ for infantry and "Hull down (4+)" for vehicles. The FAQ stated conclusively that the vehicle save was also 5+. He was just making stuff up on the spot there.

_________________
My other car is a Ravager
Back to top Go down
Grez90
Slave


Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-07-24

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Sun Jun 16 2013, 20:27

Have watched your bat rep, and read the topic above, I have to say bravo to you fella for not taking this guy downtown. Reading this topic made me think that you gave him a good hiding on the tabletop, and that he called it quits after you had won. But watching the report and seeing that he called the game quits whilst he was still winning (by the way, was mortified for you when he WANTED to tally up just exactly how many points he had at the time) was just downright bad manners, everyone whos in this forum will probably know that an army that is superior at shooting (as his orks list looked) would cause more damage in the first few turns, and so to then call it once you had gained your pain tokens and was pulling the game back was a real sly move. Also to play a game with what looked like over 150 Orks and to only have 2 of them painted kind of shows his dedication to the hobby (looks like he only wants to win, and not get involved in the social, painting aspect, and the cheating backs this up).

Also, when you went to roll to seize initiative and he denied you this right (a right he would have obviously wanted if it was him that was wanting to seize the initiative) you should have cheekily started rolling dice and said "oh I'm sorry I'm in my shooting phase, its too late to have your phase, I've already started rolling" and see how he likes it. Seizing initiative is as part of the game as any other phase is, and adds a sense of fun to a 40k game if you are lucky enough to steal it (a sense of fun that he obviously didn't want you to have).

The reserves roll also looked like a seriously frustrating point after watching your bat rep, as you argue for a while to show him that the razorwing comes in, then after all that arguing and having to prove rules, he then goes and uses interceptor (a new rule that he just so happens to know straight away off by heart as it gives him the advantage in this situation) and blows your razorwing out of the sky. The one thing I get fed up of, is certain people knowing rules that give thier armies advantages off by heart, but any rule in the book that isn't in thier favour, or isn't used a lot in thier specific book, people seem to all of a sudden know nothing about (the reserves roll as an example, as his army looked like it didn't have any at all), don't get me wrong, if somebody doesn't play a lot and needs showing rules out of the book then thats fine, and it shows that they want to learn and become a better player, but when people start arguing rules they don't know, thats what gets my goat.

All in all with him wanting to count how many points he had at the end, instead of just saying, "yeh I've got more objectives, and got a couple of bonus objectives, I believe I've won this just" it sounded like he wanted to kind of rub it in your face that he got 13 points and that he gets his jollies by cheating his way through games. If I was you playing him again in the future, I'd make sure to let him know that you have no issue with losing, it comes with the territory of playing a luck based game, but please play fairly and by the rules when we start. Its not so much "calling him out" as a cheat, but just making sure that he knows your last game was not enjoyable, and that you want the next game to be played on the same wavelength out of the rulebook, and not him making up his rules to suit as he goes along.

Hope you get a few more good games where you are mate, it is hard to find a good club to be a part of, but once you find one it is great to have a dependable bunch of people to have a good tiem with.
Back to top Go down
dino999
Slave


Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-06-03

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Mon Jun 17 2013, 04:07

i have luckily had a few good games since then and taking everyones advice on this formn i really went to town researching rules and making sure i know the ins and outs of my army as well as the armies i face accross the table frequently.
most importanly, being the 5th game ive played with the 6th ed rules, you just have to go balls out and have fun.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/user/DrokColaPainting
Jack Frost
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 109
Join date : 2013-05-01
Location : Corespur

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Mon Jun 17 2013, 05:05

Nice! Good spirits!
Rock on Dino.

-Jack-

_________________
-Jack-
Back to top Go down
http://jmsjacobsen@gmail.com
the hidden one
Slave


Posts : 6
Join date : 2013-04-29

PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   Sun Jun 23 2013, 02:31

Man, I totally feel your pain. I am lucky to play in a great group, chicago is great!, but at adepticon after 2 straight great games in which I went 1-1, I played this guy who had started packing up after I shot his battlewagon down first turn. I really hate it when people just give up on winning. He was pretty much just throwing his orks in a pile and pushing them forward a couple of inches then telling me it was my turn. I felt bad at first, since I was destroying him, and then I was about to punch him when he conceded turn 3, after having lost two tanks and a mob of boy, him having shot down 2 venoms. When people just don't try to be sportsmanlike or to play fairly, I just start getting annoyed. In my normal group were all pretty competitive, but in a fun way, as today during our game, a friend of mine, whose guard were getting eaten by a squad of beasts, told me he was using his camo cloaks in combat, and proceded to roll four 6's. I still won combat by 5 though.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)   

Back to top Go down
 
Dealing with cheaters (funny since the DE motto is play dirty)
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Drukhari Discussion
-
Jump to: