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thejamppa
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sun Jun 09 2013, 10:47

In 5th edition 2x scatter laser was no brainer now, I am torn between scatter laser / bright lance and scatter laser / EML combo. I probably field 2x Scatter laser / EML and one Scatter Laser / bright lance. I can tackle most threats. Kraks eat marine vehicles quite easily, except landraiders and Bright lance can tackle anything but necron monolith and Black Templar Landraider with Blessed hull with relatively easy.

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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sun Jun 09 2013, 18:34

@thejamppa wrote:
In 5th edition 2x scatter laser was no brainer now, I am torn between scatter laser / bright lance and scatter laser / EML combo. I probably field 2x Scatter laser / EML and one Scatter Laser / bright lance. I can tackle most threats. Kraks eat marine vehicles quite easily, except landraiders and Bright lance can tackle anything but necron monolith and Black Templar Landraider with Blessed hull with relatively easy.

Why not Monolith? It isn't immune to the lance rules anymore.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sun Jun 09 2013, 19:59

Someone on warseer math hammered it out and against infantry scatter+star cannon seems to be the winner.
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thejamppa
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Fri Jun 21 2013, 19:28

@Black Death wrote:
@thejamppa wrote:
In 5th edition 2x scatter laser was no brainer now, I am torn between scatter laser / bright lance and scatter laser / EML combo. I probably field 2x Scatter laser / EML and one Scatter Laser / bright lance. I can tackle most threats. Kraks eat marine vehicles quite easily, except landraiders and Bright lance can tackle anything but necron monolith and Black Templar Landraider with Blessed hull with relatively easy.

Why not Monolith? It isn't immune to the lance rules anymore.

Oh, I never noticed that living metal rule would FAQ'ed like that. Nice.

Anyway. After testing: Math hammer is nice but: Warwalkkers are actually one of the few yunits that can take Flakk Missiles. Therefore 3 WW's with Scatterlaser + EML with Flakks is winner in my humble opinion. Since another unit that can take flakk missiles is reaper exarch. If I need Starcannons: I'll take squadron of Vyper's with starcannon upgrade and give them holofields. 4+ Jink when you move, 3+ if you move flat out. 3+ behind Aegis and 2+ Behind ruins. Squadron fieres 6 s6 ap2 shots. Its good way to nail terminators from safe distance, trying to kill warlord or Tau commander with t4 2+ Iridium COmmand suite.

Its not that Vyper are bad units. Its just people have not much used them. Far Dark Kin players who have whole bunch of AV10 open topped vehicles, most have learned how to tackle problem.

Besides WarWalkkers are heavies while Vypers are fast attack slot. Just think what you want them to do. My Warwalkkers are for dealing heavy supports and transports. Vypers are to deal termies, honorguard with warlord. Its my head hunting unit. Dark Eldars can bring so much dark lances that warwalkkers really do not need bright lances.

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Last edited by thejamppa on Sat Jun 22 2013, 13:11; edited 1 time in total
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Fri Jun 21 2013, 20:27

@thejamppa wrote:
Oh, I never noticed that living metal rule would FAQ'ed like that. Nice.

It's not a FAQ, living metal was changed in the "new" necron codex. Very Happy

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Fri Jun 21 2013, 22:36

@thejamppa wrote:
Warwalkkers are actually one of the few yunits that can take Flakk Missiles. Therefore 3 WW's with Scatterlaser + EML with Flakks is winner in my humble opinion.

That's 270 points though without any upgrades. Pretty expensive for less than a single quadgun's AA fire!

Quote :
If I need Starcannons: I'll take squadron of Vyper's with 5p starcannon upgrade and give them holofields. 4+ Jink when you move, 3+ if you move flat out. 3+ behind Aegis and 2+ Behind ruins. Squadron fieres 6 s6 ap2 shots.

Again, the cost is ridiculous. 210 points for less firepower than a single disintegrator-armed Ravager.

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thejamppa
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sat Jun 22 2013, 13:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@thejamppa wrote:
Warwalkkers are actually one of the few yunits that can take Flakk Missiles. Therefore 3 WW's with Scatterlaser + EML with Flakks is winner in my humble opinion.

That's 270 points though without any upgrades. Pretty expensive for less than a single quadgun's AA fire!

Both eldars live for mobility. Staying aput is usually not that good idea against good opponent. Making t3 5+ guys manning quadgun bit risky. Warwalkkers benefit 5++ and also the Battlefocus so they can move, move and shoot, or move shoot and move. And you forget that kraks eat rhinos for breakfast and blasts are great against tau, other eldar and good dimisnihing hordes. So its not just anti-flyer option.

Quote :
If I need Starcannons: I'll take squadron of Vyper's with starcannon upgrade and give them holofields. 4+ Jink when you move, 3+ if you move flat out. 3+ behind Aegis and 2+ Behind ruins. Squadron fieres 6 s6 ap2 shots.

Again, the cost is ridiculous. 210 points for less firepower than a single disintegrator-armed Ravager.

Also 3 more hullpoints than Ravager and also better jink. Also your math is wrong: Its not 70P each its 85P each with holofields, shuricannon and starcannon. So that would make it 255P with holofields, shurcannons and star cannons. if you take it naked with star cannons, its only about 180P for 3 of them. Snd they still got double the Ravagers hullpoints.

And Starcannons wound marines and similar 2+ Dessie wounds 3+. Starcannon is also more reliable light vehicle hunter and insta gibbs t3 characters, unlike dessie. Its the little differences that you should consider and see if they benefit you enough to use them over another options.

Its all basically how you play it. I like fast moving, jetbikes, serpents etc. Vypers suit my head hunting nicely. Ravagers tend to get far more attention than vypers.

Of course this is just my humble opinion and it suits and works for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sat Jun 22 2013, 14:20

@thejamppa wrote:
Both eldars live for mobility. Staying aput is usually not that good idea against good opponent. Making t3 5+ guys manning quadgun bit risky. Warwalkkers benefit 5++ and also the Battlefocus so they can move, move and shoot, or move shoot and move. And you forget that kraks eat rhinos for breakfast and blasts are great against tau, other eldar and good dimisnihing hordes. So its not just anti-flyer option.

Well you specifically mentioned Flakk missiles as a reason to take the EML War Walkers so that's what I commented on, as it's clearly a less point-efficient option. You also forget that a quadgun is far better at taking out Rhino's than a krak missile and is also going to cause more casualties against hordes, Tau etc than a small blast is likely to.

Quote :
Quote :
Quote :
If I need Starcannons: I'll take squadron of Vyper's with starcannon upgrade and give them holofields. 4+ Jink when you move, 3+ if you move flat out. 3+ behind Aegis and 2+ Behind ruins. Squadron fieres 6 s6 ap2 shots.

Quote :
Again, the cost is ridiculous. 210 points for less firepower than a single disintegrator-armed Ravager.

Also 3 more hullpoints than Ravager and also better jink. Also your math is wrong: Its not 70P each its 85P each with holofields, shuricannon and starcannon. So that would make it 255P with holofields, shurcannons and star cannons. if you take it naked with star cannons, its only about 180P for 3 of them. Snd they still got double the Ravagers hullpoints.

Except you're now looking at the equivalent point value of 2 ravagers with night shields and flickerfields which have the same number of hull points, better armour, identical maneuverability and more firepower.

Each to their own but personally I wouldn't take war walkers for AA or Vypers erm...at all! And that's from someone who has 6 Vypers and would dearly love an excuse to use them!

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thejamppa
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sat Jun 22 2013, 16:11

But two of the kitted Ravagers that can best vypersquad kitted like you said still costs more than 3 basic vypers with starcannons and take 2 out of 3 heavies slot vs. 1 fast attack slot Wink Nobody said you need to spend like 75P upgrades like I do, I just indulge change annoying my opponents using cover for my vehicles.

Back to the war walkkers: Only another Flakk upgrade is like I said was dark reaper exarch. And exarch only, not the unit. War Walkkers are expensive with flakk missiles, but so are all 6th edition units with skyfire or flakk options.

You can kit them as you please, but if you count only as aegis defense line your sole AA-role or Razorwing with 2 lance shots, its not really that good. Getting possibility to get outflanking unit that can also deliver mobile AA is worth of its price. With premeasurement and all, half decent players can easily avoid static AA most of the time or bring enough flyers making quadgun pretty much useless alone.

Therefore I stand behind my experience the limited which I have with new Eldar codex that WW's with scatter and flakk's are definately one of the strongest builds covering most of the corners, especially when considering tourneys or other games with locked lists.

AA is something direly DE's need, till they get new 6th edition codex, in which we probably get skyfire chance for some of our units or upgraded weapons loadout for Razerwing or something like that helping us tackle enemy flyers better than now.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sat Jun 22 2013, 17:10

I'm actually breaking with convention here and trying out double Bright Lances. I know that they will be hitting rear/side armor after outflanking and that scatter lasers offer better flexibility, but I like the idea of having pressure units that scare the bujeezus out of armor forcing them to change facing/deal with annoying threats to allow my scoring units a bit more security. That, and at 5pts per BL, well-I'm a happy camper Very Happy

And my armor penetration rolls blow Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sun Jun 23 2013, 17:34

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
I'm actually breaking with convention here and trying out double Bright Lances. I know that they will be hitting rear/side armor after outflanking and that scatter lasers offer better flexibility, but I like the idea of having pressure units that scare the bujeezus out of armor forcing them to change facing/deal with annoying threats to allow my scoring units a bit more security. That, and at 5pts per BL, well-I'm a happy camper Very Happy

And my armor penetration rolls blow Very Happy

Having 6 lance shots at BS4 is a good solid AT volley.
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Sun Jun 23 2013, 21:31

Indeed, equivalent to two ravagers in firepower terms. Which given the way I roll means two hits and one glance!

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 00:49

Some players are still using 2 scatter lasers because statistically you can get two hits on a flyer from one war walker alone.  I may do that.

Also because of the wording of the laser rule people are rolling 4 dice for one gun and 4 dice for the second, both sets of dice are one color.  Let's say one gun is red dice and the second is blue dice.  Roll all at once then if the red dice don't do well then re roll those dice and vice versa if the blue dice don't do well then re roll them instead of red.
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 07:19

Then those players are playing it wrong. You roll all dice for laser lock and if one of those hits, then any weapons yet to fire become twin linked, ie NOT the dice you've already rolled! As count Adhemar said on the previous page, this rule is explained explicitly, there is no option to misinterpret it this way.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 08:57

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Indeed, equivalent to two ravagers in firepower terms. Which given the way I roll means two hits and one glance!

Same points as well. Works out pretty neatly.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 09:58

@shadowseercB wrote:
Some players are still using 2 scatter lasers because statistically you can get two hits on a flyer from one war walker alone.  I may do that.

Also because of the wording of the laser rule people are rolling 4 dice for one gun and 4 dice for the second, both sets of dice are one color.  Let's say one gun is red dice and the second is blue dice.  Roll all at once then if the red dice don't do well then re roll those dice and vice versa if the blue dice don't do well then re roll them instead of red.

As The_Burning_Eye has already said, that is wrong and the Laser Lock rules very clearly explain that scatter lasers do no twin-link other scatter lasers on the same model.

Dual-SL is not good AA I'm afraid, averaging only 1.33 hits per War Walker and, at S6, needing 5 or 6 to do any damage at all against most flyers. If you use Guide/Prescience they do become a better option in a full squadron, with 7.33 hits per squadron, although again you're probably only doing 1 or 2 hull points with that firepower. I'd certainly be looking elsewhere for my AA.

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 13:46

I'm all over 3x WW with SL/BL. It's great AI, it's solid AT, and it definitely stands a strong chance against Flyers. Especially if a Farseer twin links those SLs. I've had tons of great results from my squad of 3. I have yet to fail to land at least one BL hit every time I target Flyers, and with Outflank I am almost always hitting on rear armor. Plus, my enemies knowing that the walkers are coming in keeps significant portions of their AT from advancing on my downfield Ravagers, allowing them to keep pounding away, safe behind their NS. Their arrival behind enemy lines in those cases where the poor enemy general has her AT committed towards my end is absolutely lethal, and not a mistake any general is likely to make twice...and having made her that gunshy is deliciously exploitable.

Phew, GW was not kidding at all when they talked about a big feature of this book was new ways to ally with DEldar. I am like a kid in a candy store these days. And when my Warp Hunter arrives in the mail... Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 15:56

there's some math hammer over at warseer, here's a paste of the table.
Code:
War Walker  
         Shots   Hits   wounds   GEQkill   MEQkill AV10Pen   Kills   AV11pen   Kills
Dual Shuriken Cannons   6    4   3.3   3.33   1.11   1.33   0.22   0.67   0.11
Dual Scatter Lasers   8   5.3   4.4   2.96   1.48   1.78   0.30   0.89   0.15
Dual Star Cannons   4   2.7   2.2   2.22   2.22   0.89   0.30   0.44   0.15
Dual Bright Lances   2   1.3   1.1   1.11   1.11   0.89   0.30   0.67   0.22
Dual Missiles      2   1.3    1.1   1.11   1.11   0.89   0.15   0.67   0.11

Scatter Laser
+ TL Shuriken cannon   7    5.3    4.4   3.70   1.48   1.78   0.30    0.89   0.15
+ TL Star Cannon   6   4.4   3.7   2.96   2.22   1.48   0.35   0.74   0.17
+ TL Bright Lance   5   3.6   2.96   2.22   1.48   1.48   0.35   0.89   0.17
+ TL Missile      5   3.6   2.96   2.22   1.48   1.48   0.25   0.89   0.10

credit to darkmarkus for the calculations. i'm still a noob so i can't post links: ... /showthread.php?373680-Tactica-Eldar-6th-Edition-2013&p=6793962&viewfull=1#post6793962
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 16:14

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
I'm all over 3x WW with SL/BL. It's great AI, it's solid AT, and it definitely stands a strong chance against Flyers. Especially if a Farseer twin links those SLs. I've had tons of great results from my squad of 3. I have yet to fail to land at least one BL hit every time I target Flyers, and with Outflank I am almost always hitting on rear armor. Plus, my enemies knowing that the walkers are coming in keeps significant portions of their AT from advancing on my downfield Ravagers, allowing them to keep pounding away, safe behind their NS. Their arrival behind enemy lines in those cases where the poor enemy general has her AT committed towards my end is absolutely lethal, and not a mistake any general is likely to make twice...and having made her that gunshy is deliciously exploitable.

Phew, GW was not kidding at all when they talked about a big feature of this book was new ways to ally with DEldar. I am like a kid in a candy store these days. And when my Warp Hunter arrives in the mail... Twisted Evil

Also, if they are deployed T1 and the Farseer fortunes them, they will be pretty darn tough with 5++ re-rollable saves. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Best load-out for Eldar War Walkers.    Mon Jun 24 2013, 18:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@shadowseercB wrote:
Some players are still using 2 scatter lasers because statistically you can get two hits on a flyer from one war walker alone.  I may do that.

Also because of the wording of the laser rule people are rolling 4 dice for one gun and 4 dice for the second, both sets of dice are one color.  Let's say one gun is red dice and the second is blue dice.  Roll all at once then if the red dice don't do well then re roll those dice and vice versa if the blue dice don't do well then re roll them instead of red.

As The_Burning_Eye has already said, that is wrong and the Laser Lock rules very clearly explain that scatter lasers do no twin-link other scatter lasers on the same model.

Dual-SL is not good AA I'm afraid, averaging only 1.33 hits per War Walker and, at S6, needing 5 or 6 to do any damage at all against most flyers. If you use Guide/Prescience they do become a better option in a full squadron, with 7.33 hits per squadron, although again you're probably only doing 1 or 2 hull points with that firepower. I'd certainly be looking elsewhere for my AA.

NO WAY is that CLEARLY stated in the laser lock rule but I see why you say that.  Ill bring it up when I see them again.

I like the skyfire missle but I believe its too expensive over all.  Its only str 7 too.  Ill figure it out.

EDIT: I walked away and walked back to read it again and yeah its clear.  I can totally understand how 3 guys misread it though but at the same time they are meta gamers and I should have known better than to take their advice at face.  I didnt read it till you replied.
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