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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 00:15

I'd say more that I've got some banshee models and want to use them. Here's another thought though, drop the banshees at the same time as some wraithblades and watch your opponent try to figure out which one to shoot first.

Banshees on foot is actually not a bad idea, as their run move means they cover the ground very quickly so could conceivably be in contact turn 2-3 depending on the opponent.

I think the key thing is that they've not tried to make eldar an assault force (or should that be tried not to make eldar an assault force). It can still work for them, but you've got to pin your opponent down first. DE are still faster but eldar shooting is stronger

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 00:21

shining spears with star lance hit and run and monster hunter with an autarch will be useful firing at a distance or assaulting. They are a far more flexible unit than banshees.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 00:37

Agreed, but the original point was about the wave serpent not being an assault transport, not whether shining spears are better than banshees, I simply used them as an example of why the wave serpent didn't get the assault rule, which is essentially that if you have a AV12 transport with the serpent shield then the unit inside becomes unbelievably good. GW are never hoing to make aspect warriors a horde unit like orks, and the other way to deal with it is to make the transport more fragile, or in other words, a raider.

The tools are all in the codex to make the wave serpent viable for assault troops, you just have to be willing to think about how it will work for you and be patient. Like I've said before, the eldar have always been about using units together to achieve the desired result.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 03:54

Can a wave serpent provide partial cover for our raiders ?
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 04:46

Only for anyone that shoots at it while the serpent is covering 25% from where the shot was fired.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 13:27

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I'd say more that I've got some banshee models and want to use them.

Convert them into sweet looking Incubi Razz

Hah, no, I've got some too and would like to use them - they're one of my favourite aspects - and probably will at some point. However, I simply cannot agree with anyone saying Eldar assault units are in a good place and that goes double for the girls. That's all on paper mind, so I may be wrong, but I simply see too many obstacles, most of which I've enumerated... and the reward still seems dubious, what with the preponderance of AP3 shooting inside the codex.

Btw, might be boring, but I'd rather dump 2 units of Banshees/Wraithblades - one of each, and its easier to split up shooting to match weapon to victim.

The strongest role I can see for Eldar assault is lurking behind a wave of short ranged shooting units waiting to bail them out. I believe that is what the codex has been designed around. I'm still not sure it makes them terribly good - and, of course, given the circumstances of the forum at large it makes them nigh useless to us DE as allies.

Final note - the Wave Serpent's survivability might be somewhat overstated. It might not explode that often (we all know 2+ saves fail at the worst possible moment though) but it can still be pinged to death. A lot of people have based their anti-tank strategy around stripping a lot of light vehicles of their hull points.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 14:00

I think it's a really fine line PK has had to tread with the codex. Seen elsewhere a suggestion that banshee helms should count as assault grenades, wave serpent should be an assault transport. To my mind, this would make banshees an absolute nightmare for everything bar terminators as they could zoom up in their transport turn 1, turn 2 disembark and charge into cover, while striking first with AP3 weapons. All of that with a 4+ armour save (3+ if you take an exarch) against overwatch shooting. I totally get the idea that banshee masks should count as assault grenades, but the Initiative nerf kinda does something similar. Imagine a charging unit against a full tac squad of rapid firing bolters, they should only lose 1 model to overwatch, if we assume that 5 make it into combat (let's say 4 casualties from shooting the turn before, and the one from overwatch), then they should get 20+ attacks (think they're A2 basic? haven't got the codex to hand), which should net about 3-4 kills not counting exarch uplift. Marines striking back simultaneously would get 11 attacks, so let's say 6 hits, four wounds and two kills. You win the combat, and your banshees are now safe from shooting for a turn.

I'd perhaps have been happier to see the battle focus rule let eldar units either move-shoot-move, move-move-shoot or move-shoot-assault. This would give banshees a 9+3D6" assault range meaning they could happily drop out of line of sight and still get into combat in the next turn. I suspect that might upset a few of us DE players though as it would mean banshees became faster than our assault troops.

I agree with you that the Wave Serpent is no land raider, but with AV12 to the front, it's a damn sight more survivable than a raider!

I also think you're probably right about the role for eldar assault, particularly given how short ranged their weapons are, i could imagine plenty of guardian squads getting in a spot of bother and needing to be bailed out!

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 14:42

Interestingly banshee masks also reduce your opponents initiative for sweeping advance. Meaning you will always catch them (1+6 vs 5+1 is the only roll that will let them escape, if you have an exarch or an autarch (I6) they will never escape), and almost always get away (if for whatever reason you lost combat and break).

It also affects all models in that combat, so you could for example tag team some banshee's with some incubi, and the incubi would benefit (or other units that don't have assault grenades, like shining spears, reavers, guardian jetbikes, wraithblades and so on).

I think there is more to the banshee mask than people give credit.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 14:50

1 attack each, so 3 on a charge and on average it takes 6 Banshee attacks to kill a Marine - so 2, not counting the Exarch. Does the init debuff count for sweeping advances? Because vanilla Marines will choose to fail that test - handy for keeping them in if it does.

Ah, so it does Mush. However, if you're just taking them for the Mask, the Autarch is probably a lot easier to get to where you want it...

The issue is you now only have three Banshees left - they're not even guaranteed to win the next round of combat (if they do, it will be thanks to a tooled up Exarch). You've basically sacrificed a squad of Banshees to half-take out a squad of Marines and prevent them from shooting for a turn.

---

While giving them assault grenades and an assault transport would be nasty, I'm not certain it would be that OP. Space Marines will combat squad, giving the Banshees no target they won't overkill and leave them exposed - except for Space Wolves and Chaos (when Chaos aren't taking minimal 5 dude cult squads anyway). As a Wolf player, I'm ok with the idea of there being a hard counter to the defensive magnificence that is the Grey Hunter, and can think of a few solutions anyway. Tau's overwatch is stupid, Guard come either in giant blobs that won't care, tiny squads that will get overkilled, or in tanks. Orks will take a beating first turn and then come back and mob them to death. They'll overkill us Dark Eldar... sucks to be a Sister of Battle I guess... but yeah. Large squads can soak it, small squads will get overkilled, and there's very little in the middle.

Giving them run + assault - and he could have just given this to the Banshees, or made Acrobatic a rule saying can assault from transports while leaving Wave Serpents non-assault to everyone else - would also have been interesting. So would have just upping their killing power, so that a small squad is still a frightening prospect, and makes the trouble of getting them in. Make Banshee masks give a penalty to firing from nearby firing. There's about a 1001 ways that Banshees could have been made better, of which assault transports was just one; one of them should have really been taken.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 14:56

70pts for five banshees (is that right?). It's not like it's a gamble, and you only need one to benefit from the mask. Basically they might work as a cheap support unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 15:43

@wanderingblade wrote:

Convert them into sweet looking Incubi Razz

LOL ...

@wanderingblade wrote:

The strongest role I can see for Eldar assault is lurking behind a wave of short ranged shooting units waiting to bail them out. I believe that is what the codex has been designed around. I'm still not sure it makes them terribly good - and, of course, given the circumstances of the forum at large it makes them nigh useless to us DE as allies.

Scorpions look pretty good.. Dont need to waste points on a carrier..

re Wave serpent
They are a lot of points..130 or 145 with a holo.. As a transport You cant assault from them ..till turn 3 about the same as running ( running can be faster if the enemy moves up or deploys forward) , if you use the Shield as a gun ., then the opponent will fire on you so you are just a average AV 12 tank . If you dont use the shield as a gun it is just a very expensive transport which wont get fired on . To me its not something you spam or move troops for objectives . Its to get some very powerfull model like Karandas where you want or maybe deploy some power full squad to the flank but this seems better done by spiders , bikes or swooping hawks..

I certainly think using Avengers ( 5 - 10) / Wave Serpent spam is very poor value

Maybe carying an archon with a husk blade and 5-7 Banshees is good... -5 initiative to opponent... 7 Banshees and Exarc , Wave serpent and an Archon with husk blade and Shadow FIield is 370 points.. and is fleet .. a lot of points but is going to kill what it hits with the wave serpent taking it there..


Last edited by bklooste on Fri Jun 07 2013, 15:57; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 15:48

@bklooste wrote:
re Wave serpent
Maybe carying an archon with a husk blade and 5-7 Banshees is good... -5 initiative to opponent...

Unfortunately the Archon cannot get in the Wave Serpent as even Battle Brothers cannot embark on allied transport vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 15:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@bklooste wrote:
re Wave serpent
Maybe carying an archon with a husk blade and 5-7 Banshees is good... -5 initiative to opponent...

Unfortunately the Archon cannot get in the Wave Serpent as even Battle Brothers cannot embark on allied transport vehicles.

Damn ... it should say no allied units... since it can join .. Agree its written that way now.. Maybe it will get FAQ'd.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 16:20

75 points Mush. Could work, although only Wraithblades would really benefit. Ironically, we'd get more out of it, with a) more units without assault grenades b) The coven units all being I4. Unfortunately, they really really don't keep up with us, unless taken from the Corsair list, in which case they get a Venom... honestly, I don't think anyone would have cared if they'd got a Venom-esque thing. Really doesn't hurt variety between armies to me.

Bklooste, Scorpions have great stats, but they're still weedy expensive Marines running around on foot in a game where killing Marines on foot is a greatly prized asset. As such, I'm iffy.

I think you're wrong on Wave Serpents, who I think look great sources of dakka. They basically all come with 2 60" autocannons which ignore cover and pin people - that's genuinely great in my book and I think most armies would pay a lot for that as a gun, particularly when within 36" they'll almost definitely be twin-linked. They're half-decent anti-air used in that mode as well. Me, I plan to use them a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 18:07

It's worth noting that those "autocannons" are AP-, so most things still get an armour save against them. Still I agree the serpents are a great gun platform.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 18:53

@Mushkilla wrote:
70pts for five banshees (is that right?). It's not like it's a gamble, and you only need one to benefit from the mask. Basically they might work as a cheap support unit.
An autarch with a jetbike and mask would work, too. Only need one model with the mask to lower Initiative down!
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 20:59

@Mushkilla wrote:
It's worth noting that those "autocannons" are AP-, so most things still get an armour save against them. Still I agree the serpents are a great gun platform.

It seems to me like they will be used to take out light vehicles that rely on their cover saves more than anything else. Rhinos popping smoke, piranhas and the like. The ignores cover rule is huge and easy twin linking via scatter laser should do decent anti air duty 9-15 strength 6-7 shots a turn with the probability of the being twin linked should down flyers pretty easily. I see well build elder lists eating cron air for breakfast. particularly if they take tau allies.

Edit: The point being that AP- is equal in all things from AP 6 up to 3 for the purposes of killing tanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 21:26

Wave serpents are insane. When spammed they are akin to cron air on the ground or 4 rune priests with living lightning only better much better since the shield ignores cover and their cover save is better. Of all the armies I think we struggle most against mechdar.

Cracking 12 armour with 4++ is always a crap shoot and now they put out more dakka than most gunboats could dream of let alone dedicated transports. I feel the serpent shield is simply for going 2nd, like night shields in a way, only it turns into a freaking nasty gun at the 1st turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 22:05

@Brom wrote:
Wave serpents are insane. When spammed they are akin to cron air on the ground or 4 rune priests with living lightning only better much better since the shield ignores cover and their cover save is better. Of all the armies I think we struggle most against mechdar.

Cracking 12 armour with 4++ is always a crap shoot and now they put out more dakka than most gunboats could dream of let alone dedicated transports. I feel the serpent shield is simply for going 2nd, like night shields in a way, only it turns into a freaking nasty gun at the 1st turn.

Great points. Mech isn't dead! Mechanized Eldar, with DE allies is going to be so fun. Its going to be such a pick your poison match up. Furthermore, my mech. Eldar list with DE allies came 90 pts cheaper with the new dex, so its easier for me to trim a unit here, trim a unit there and get some Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, or a 5 man ranger squad to diversify your methods of attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 22:22

Mech never was dead. What keeps marines safe from a helldrakes baleflamer? The humble rhino of course. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Fri Jun 07 2013, 22:27

@Mushkilla wrote:
Mech never was dead. What keeps marines safe from a helldrakes baleflamer? The humble rhino of course. Smile

Not the best example as the Helldrake will simply Vector Strike the Rhino and then incinerate the marines.

All on the same turn.

From a starting point 3 feet away.

Facing backwards.

Can you tell I don't like Helldrakes much?

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Sat Jun 08 2013, 00:11

Ya I dont think mech will ever be dead in 40k. I lol each new edition when "the age of infantry" is declared henceforth with much rejoicing.. followed by infantry armies getting summarily stomped out by mech.


Anyway im thinking tauldar is looking really ugly. DE/Eldar too although less so IMO. I play 1500 pts or below so allying in anything really waters down the dark flavor which im not willing to do at this point barring some serious losses first, the kind id feel couldnt be handled without allies, but luckily I havent had those yet.

If I were to ally though the standouts for me are: warp spiders + jetbike farseer, BL/SL war walkers, scoring wraithguard in serpents (or just DAVU serpents). Pretty much all units that I feel compliment DE and/or cover weaknesses.
\
Secondary options I wouldnt mind trying would be avatar + wraithlord for similar reasons. Thats it. Anything else I feel DE do better once the 2nd HQ cost is factored in.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Sat Jun 08 2013, 08:31

Quote :
Not the best example as the Helldrake will simply Vector Strike the Rhino and then incinerate the marines.

All on the same turn.


The odds of that happening are not so certain.

d3 +1 S7 hits = 2.5 hits.

1.25 will glance/pen.

0.825 if we only count pens.

The vector strike is AP3, which means it will need a 6 to 'splode the rhino.

So 13.7% chance of 'sploding a rhino by vector strike hits from a helldrake.

Meh?

I'm not saying a helldrake is bad, as they are very good - but they are "made" so much better because people don't invest in rhinos to protect their marines, and even when people know what they do, I seldom see people spreading out with 2" between each model (in circle or wave formation, so you only get 3 hits max from a flamer template).

It does make a huge difference in their effectiveness that people don't even try to mitigate what a helldrake can do.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Sat Jun 08 2013, 09:54

@Mushkilla wrote:
Also Eldar get access to telepathy, which is great on level three psykers. Especially ones that can take jetbikes. Terrify will strip fearless, and warlocks have access to horrify which gives -3 leadership. This can force even marines to fail their pinning test. Not to mention it makes being 7" or less away from the table edge a dangerous prospect. So pinning will be more useful with eldar than most armies.

I think the pin checks is something that will come out later Psypowers + Doomweaver S7 large blast with pinning ..Spinnerte , EML /Dark reaper.
2 * 5 , 2 Doomweavers could be interesting ( not too mention the Crystal Targetting Matrix torrent you can put down with a 3+ cover save) . Maybe with 2 far seers which are not bad anyway..
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworld Codex Impressions   Sat Jun 08 2013, 12:33

I love howling Banshees... I have 60... I could almost live with their current rules if they had given them power axes :<
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