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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 15:20

So when the rulebook says if there is one or more models with the infiltrate special rule the unit is allowed to infiltrate. When is there ever only 1 model in a unit with infiltrate in a unit? I know an IC without the usr can not infiltrate, but I don't see why a character can't have the rule a join a unit. This is why an FAQ would be nice

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 16:10

@Massaen wrote:
I agree that it allows IC's to infiltrate to other infiltrating units and thus deploy with them. I agree that with infiltrate, an IC can join a squad in reserve and thus outflank.

At no point in the BRB, regardless of RAI, does it allow you to join a unit so they can infiltrate - unless you can find a passage I can't

My point towards shrike's FAQ also states join before game. How can Shrike join before game??? Is it this special rule that allows him to join before the unit before the game??? Or is it how the game was intended???

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Tangentical
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 16:31

Not that it's a convincing argument but it is being allowed at major tournaments e.g. Adepticon.

It was even more iffy then as Karandras infiltrate was granted via his Exarch power which in my opinion was wrong at the time.

That aside, the 3rd place player who used DE/Eldar was utilising the infiltrate rule from Karandras to pull wyches up the board.

That in itself for me means this is at least a tactic to consider and maybe ask a TO as it is clearly being used and allowed by some in a competitive setting. I understand that this does not in any way verify whether or not it is correct.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 16:37

@ SR:
It's both in my honest opinion. Sadly a lot of people play the game strictly RAW and they usually win in a discussion like this. As long as the person you play with is fine with infiltrating Kharandras/Illic and 10 grotesques (or whatever else), I don't see a point in not doing so.

Heck I would say and do same thing, sadly some of the people I play with are RAW-Rul0rs of the finest. Once one told me to remove grotesques as casualties because they couldn't fit under the shape of the just exploded raider, which is RAW-rule-bending in king-grade. I guess I kinda adapted their style while defending my theory, sorry. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 16:45

Actually he came 4th, sorry, Josh Roberts' Necron/CSM alliance came in 3rd.

For run down of the tactic and the army at Adepticon listen to 11th Company episode 162 from 17 May about 1hr 23 minutes in, good to listen to a Dark Eldar player doing well.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 17:11

NP Sleepy, I am normally a straight RAW player as well, but there are some things that are just so blantantly obvious to me that its seems stupid to ignore them (like other armies coming through a WWP, or the Doc Grotsnick being able to give allies 5++ invuls)

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 20:06

To me Shrike's special rule indicates that normally you can't, otherwise he wouldn't need a rule that says he can. They would of faqed the main rule book if it was meant for every body.

Either way as long as you and the person your playing are on the same page then it doesn't matter if its RAI or RAW.

I'm tempting to make a large unit of wraith guard with d-scythes, or maybe grots to infiltrate in with Illic since he ignores range restrictions. If IC join the unit before deployment then you can join an archon or haemonculi with a webway portal to the unit. Then you can bring your reserves in behind the infiltrated wall wraith guard or grits.
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 20:39

@Trystis wrote:
To me Shrike's special rule indicates that normally you can't, otherwise he wouldn't need a rule that says he can. They would of faqed the main rule book if it was meant for every body.

See to me this isnt an FAQ on infiltrate, but to make sure that Shrike's ability only works with Codex: Space Marines units. Just like how alot of stuff from the SM dex's were FAQed to only effect their dex, and not marines in general (take for example rites of battle on chappies)

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 20:43

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
@Trystis wrote:
To me Shrike's special rule indicates that normally you can't, otherwise he wouldn't need a rule that says he can. They would of faqed the main rule book if it was meant for every body.

See to me this isnt an FAQ on infiltrate, but to make sure that Shrike's ability only works with Codex: Space Marines units. Just like how alot of stuff from the SM dex's were FAQed to only effect their dex, and not marines in general (take for example rites of battle on chappies)

Ahh... I see what you mean now. That makes more since to me.

I'm still not sure whats ultimately intended, but I'm am curious what kind of units would be best to take advantage of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 22:06

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
@Trystis wrote:
To me Shrike's special rule indicates that normally you can't, otherwise he wouldn't need a rule that says he can. They would of faqed the main rule book if it was meant for every body.

See to me this isnt an FAQ on infiltrate, but to make sure that Shrike's ability only works with Codex: Space Marines units. Just like how alot of stuff from the SM dex's were FAQed to only effect their dex, and not marines in general (take for example rites of battle on chappies)

Not taking either side here, but if that was the purpose of shrike's FAQ, then surely it logically follows on that night spear wouldn't be able to do so with non-eldar units?

I also like to throw in the devils advocate point. Can anyone realistically say that a character like that would enable grotesques etc to be able to sneak within 1" of the enemy without being noticed?

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 22:40

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Not taking either side here, but if that was the purpose of shrike's FAQ, then surely it logically follows on that night spear wouldn't be able to do so with non-eldar units?

I also like to throw in the devils advocate point. Can anyone realistically say that a character like that would enable grotesques etc to be able to sneak within 1" of the enemy without being noticed?

It seems pretty silly for the Infiltrate special rule to even state that it requires only one model in a squad to confer it to all of the models, when the few cases it can actually happen (Karandras and now Illic) are argued as ridiculous. Just like it is assumed in Sweeping Advance that the one with highest initiative simply leads the way for the others, how is it unreasonable that a master of stealthy infiltration would not be able to hide even Grotesques? Creed can make Warlord titans and Baneblades to Scout and Outflank no problem, so an expert on Webway and the embodiment of stealth killing that can vanish in thin air surely shouldn't have problems with it either. I say yes, it is completely realistic and possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Mon Jun 03 2013, 22:48

We can't really be led by the limits of our imagination in how we play the game...

Some really strange things are cornerstones of gameplay like Imperial Guard being better at getting up from 'gone to ground', running etc etc than Space Marines just because someone gives them an order.

I know that's not that extreme but having read the Horis Heresy books it sticks in my craw!

We can always come up with a fluff or imaginative reason for any circumstance, even deep striking Land Raiders.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 00:24

I would love it to be so, but locally, its not gonna happen for me at events...

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 00:39

@Massaen wrote:
I would love it to be so, but locally, its not gonna happen for me at events...

Why not? The point about IC being attached to the unit by being in coherency with it and thus unable to infiltrate it seems, once again, completely silly when a unit of infiltrators can sit in a dedicated transport and infiltrate with it! So if you really, really have someone argue that no, Illic cannot infiltrate with, say, a squad of five Wraithguard, stick them into a bloody Wave Serpent so that it eliminates any chance to objections, while becoming far more absurd in the process.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 01:05

I don't know if this has been FAQ away since I never use allies, but couldn't warlocks really benefit from grisly trophies? Their low leadership could really be helped by the ability to reroll. I'm thinking a raider with torment grenade launchers and grisly trophies next to a warlock with the embolden/horrify power could be all kinds of broken particularly if you have a wraith fighter over head to make them reroll successful leadership and lose fearless. Having to reroll passed leadership at -4 could be great fun, particularly if you throw a dire sword into the mix..... (make sure the fighter is away from your warlock though since it effects him too.)
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 01:35

Unfortunately I've seen this same debate play out many times in person and on the Web. I'm also a raven guard player fwiw so this issue is not new to me. iirc shrikes rule was faq'd last edition to allow him to infiltrate a unit and people in the RG community submitted faq request for this same thing again in 6th. Whether the faq was direct result of this or not is speculation.

On topic the majority of opinions I've encountered, and even evidence IMO, are against conferring infiltrate. Reason is as stated by those above, the timing of deployment infiltrators and ICs joining units does not allow for such action to occur. Its often overlooked because it rarely ever matters, but its there. Players of CSM, shadowsun tau etc all have this same discussion because that's when the limitation becomes apparent. Anyway fwiw I was once in the camp that argued for conferring infiltrate.

On my phone can't quote or make a more concise statement, sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 03:03

Well, the DE FAQ says nothing about Grisly Trophies, and their entry in the codex says "any friendly unit", so... yes, by RAW, Warlocks and in fact all Eldar can indeed re-roll their Leadership within 6" of Grisly Trophies, as absurd as that might be. Good catch.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 06:23

Please excuse my ignorance I just want to get this straight, and ignore the Shrike argument I think that is a special thing for their codex.

On pg. 38
"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last..."
The wording on this is really bad. It doesnt say something like, "a unit with atleast one model with this special rule..." Blah blah blah.

On pg. 39 for IC Special Rules
"...Unless specified in the rule itself (as in Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the IC, and the IC special rules are not conferred upon the unit..."


So its totally legal for me to use Karandras or Illic to deploy with Incubi/witches/whatever I want while infiltrating?


If so and I take Illic can he deploy, lets say 6", near the enemy with a squad of wyches? Or would they have to follow the 12" and 18" rules? Which I would suppose illic would have to deploy far away too.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 06:34

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Well, the DE FAQ says nothing about Grisly Trophies, and their entry in the codex says "any friendly unit", so... yes, by RAW, Warlocks and in fact all Eldar can indeed re-roll their Leadership within 6" of Grisly Trophies, as absurd as that might be. Good catch.

Its not absurd - they're just being reminded of what will happen if they let us down... Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 06:45

@wanderingblade wrote:
@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Well, the DE FAQ says nothing about Grisly Trophies, and their entry in the codex says "any friendly unit", so... yes, by RAW, Warlocks and in fact all Eldar can indeed re-roll their Leadership within 6" of Grisly Trophies, as absurd as that might be. Good catch.

Its not absurd - they're just being reminded of what will happen if they let us down... Twisted Evil

Lolz how very true. I guess if you make dark elder the allied detachment then you could model the trophies as something inspiring to the elder.... but then it wouldn't be nearly spikey enough.. Maybe a fluffy way around that could be icons of Kain for the trophies?
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 09:18

As this rapidly turned into rules discussion it has moved to the appropriate forum. You may want to open a new thread again about your 40kG discussion if you so like Chris. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 12:34

Crickey it's a bouncing thread.... Let's talk about painting now and see if we can get this baby all over the forum! Very Happy

Or maybe we could push it into some unclassified area by being shocked about the whole Catfishesque Christina Campbell shenanigans... affraid


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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 17:17

I seem to be stuck on stupid...
I just want to make sure before my next game. I can infiltrate Illic on the board with Incubi or even better Wraithblades?

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 17:28

@shadowseercB wrote:
I seem to be stuck on stupid...
I just want to make sure before my next game. I can infiltrate Illic on the board with Incubi or even better Wraithblades?
Why dont you read page one and two where we already discussed this question?

100% strictly "read as written" answer: no
"read as intended" answer in reference of Shrikes entry in the SM FAQ : yes
best answer: ask the person you play with how you two should handle it.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Tue Jun 04 2013, 18:35

They need to FAQ him. Currently he can infiltrate anywhere without range restriction. So he could infiltrate into base to base with the enemy and begin the game in CC. That definitely isn't intended.
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