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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sat Jun 01 2013, 23:04

@Rip wrote:
And I will punish GW for their temerity by buying Tau instead. That'll teach 'em. Mad

I very much doubt it Rolling Eyes

I read WD today - I am not impressed. Except by that beautiful fighter jet!

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sat Jun 01 2013, 23:07

I have to say, I love the new models. Read the codex through once, and I figure the deathwing will be bricking themselves when they see all the AP2 potential.

Model wise I think the Phoenix lords need some work, but then I've never really got on with most of them, and the jetbike needs updating desperately (if nothing else, put the new style helmets on it!). Everything else I really like with the exception of a couple of the warlock models that you can pretty much ignore.

I'll hold on until the jetbikes are done, as my ideas for an eldar list conveniently split into two parts anyway.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 02:43

Love the spirit seer model, illic model. Love the codex. Really disappointed in the lack of new models available.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 02:48

Again, I think we were spoiled by the DE entire line reboot. Doing a direct comparison with another recent release of a codex (Tau) we see this is pretty par for the course.

Tau/Eldar
HQ
-New cheap HQ option: Fireblade Cadre guy/Spiritseer
-Revamp sculpt of existing HQ model: Commander battlesuit/Farseer
-Special character resculpt: Farsight/ (Eldar got nada)


Others:
-Giant mega-suit thingy: Riptide/Wraithkinght

-Obligatory new flier: Sunshark bomber/Hemlock Wraithfighter

-Revamped unit in a new plastic: Pathfinders/Wraithguard

-Repackaged unit that we wished was updated: Battlesuits/Jetbikes

-Unit upgrade special character: Darkstrider, Longstrike/Fancypants ranger guy

-Heavy choice redo: Broadside suit/ Eldar nada, though remember that the Fire Prism kit was redone between the old and new codex.


I understand that some people are tired of the old Warlock sculpts, Phoenix Lords, and jetbikes are definitely tired. Aside from this it's pretty obvious that this is pretty standard release. The Eldar line was pretty strong model-wise prior to the release and didn't need the entire line heave-ho like the Dark Eldar did. I for one am going to enjoy the hell out of a pretty damned well written codex and have a nerdgasm over all of the AP2 goodness that it offers. Twisted Evil

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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 05:16

The Phoenix Lords and warlocks are some of the best sculpts in all of 40k. Warp Spiders are still among the best looking aspect warriors.

The DE got a makeover because frankly, the original lineup of models they had were pretty bad.

Even the current 2e CWE Jetbike still looks good, all it needs is a headswap. CWE Jetbikes need an upright pose for Shining Spears, Autarchs, and Warlocks to properly swing their melee weapons from there.

If you really want new jetbikes, just buy some Reavers and greenstuff in their canopies to be more solid. Their helmets look great too.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 06:34

GW shot themselves in the foot with DE's last released models because they set a standard so high that most releases from GW pale in comparison. As an army, IMO of course, they blow away anything out there in tabletop.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 06:52

Agreed, dark eldar have the best looking model line in the whole range (and I don't just collect them, I also have several other armies). Ironic really since they used to be one of the worst (in my opinion).

I disagree that you need an upright pose for CWE due to shining spears etc, in fact if you're going to be using a lance, sitting back is the last thing you want to be doing. Shining spears would work very well leaning forward into the strike (see my project log for a spear wielding jetbike rider, I think it works pretty well)

As for the Phoenix lords, baharroth is good, as is maugan ra and fuegan. Some of the warlocks are good but some are really old and tired.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 12:18

You guys are right, about being spoiled by the DE release. Seeing the entire model range redone to the highest standard GW has ever produced helped to set HUGE expectations for the Eldar release. I'm very happy with what was released as Wraithguard were the only new models I really wanted for my own collection, though I was hoping for an out-of-left-field Storm Guardian kit for all my corsair conversions.

That being said I'm a veteran collector who has held on to/stocked up on metal minis over the past two years, and I could imagine it being very off-putting for new players having to buy all fnecast aspects, and rangers. I'm so glad I got a hold 10x incubi, dark reapers, warlocks, and around 15 rangers and a couple of farseers over the course of the last 2-3 years.

As for the rules, I need to play before I make any judgements. It sounds good so far, as my army is based around Dire Avengers and Rangers, but I'll have to play some games first. I also don't think enough is being said about Battle Trance. They finally gave an almost army-wide rule akin to And They Shall Know No Fear. While maybe not as obviously potent as ATSKNF or the Tau group overwatch, I think it may come to define the Eldar in terms of playstyle. My early impressions are that Phil Kelly tried to give Eldar players something that would last for years to come in terms of rules...though I get the distinct impression that someone in the game design studio put the screws to him on not making the wave serpent an assault vehicle.

So far I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Ciirian
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 16:39

The only thing that I am bummed about is the Dire Avengers. They went from a 10 man box to a 5 man box. I remember that 10 man set came out years ago, wish I got one then.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 19:57

@Ciirian wrote:
The only thing that I am bummed about is the Dire Avengers. They went from a 10 man box to a 5 man box. I remember that 10 man set came out years ago, wish I got one then.

That's why I went out and bought two boxes of the 10 men when the rumors hit. With the 20 DAs I have already, Ill never need another one again Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 21:52

I love the book, I have all the models that I wanted and if there are any models that I don't like... well... I just won't buy them!

The Dire Avengers change is the only thing that has annoyed me, but even then I don't really mind! It was a great release anyway!

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Sun Jun 02 2013, 23:45

Slightly miffed that we don't get same psychic denial we used to have.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 01:45

The main disappointments for me was the change to randomly generated psychic powers and the warlocks being LD8 psykers (ancient ,skilled psykers having the same LD as indentured human psykers? bwuh?).

The really huge nerd rage-enducing thing for me was the fact that you can only take warlock councils in primary detachments. I really enjoyed rolling a Jetbike Seer Council as a mobile support group for my Raiderborne Wyches, but due to the wording in the codex this is no longer an option.

Other than that the codex seems interesting enough. Some of the stuff looks really great, alot of it looks alright, and little of it actually looks terrible. Its just those few things that really got my goat, but Im sure that work arounds can at least be found by reading the codex more and finding a way through it.

One thing im curious about is the usage of a Webway DE list in conjunction with a Wraith heavy list: can Allied units use Codex DE webway portals to deploy out of reserves?
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 08:29

@mikezealous wrote:
can Allied units use Codex DE webway portals to deploy out of reserves?

Sadly no.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 10:38

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@mikezealous wrote:
can Allied units use Codex DE webway portals to deploy out of reserves?

Sadly no.

Strictly RAW, yes they can actually. As long as the DE are the allies and not the primary, GW's usual crap writing allows it.

Quote :
Q: Can units from allied detachment use a webway portal to enter play from reserve? (p62)
A: No.

So if you take Eldar primary and DE allies then the Eldar can use the WWP but the Dark Eldar can't, as they are the allied detachment!

Not what they intended at all but as long as they have crap writing and no editing then things like this will crop up!

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 11:57

Good spot!

On the other hand though, why would you want your primary detachment to be Eldar since Dark Eldar are waaaaaaay cooler. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 19:48

I don't want eldar as primary force but I want to win just as much. So far the easiest route would be Eldar as primaries, given time some of us can make DE primary list amazing and with great success and I'm sure it will be extremely difficult and strategic as it should be.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 20:25

I'm starting Eldar as a completely seperate army to my DE. All shades of Eldar are awesome!

I'm not much of a fan of allies, so this release has caused me to grab the codex, a bunch of new models and start painting my hornet coloured Craftworlders!

As far as the rules are concerned the only thing that I think I'd be disappointed about would be the fact that Banshees are suffering from Incubi syndrome and don't have any grenades.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 21:23

@Cavash wrote:
I'm starting Eldar as a completely seperate army to my DE. All shades of Eldar are awesome!

I'm not much of a fan of allies, so this release has caused me to grab the codex, a bunch of new models and start painting my hornet coloured Craftworlders!

As far as the rules are concerned the only thing that I think I'd be disappointed about would be the fact that Banshees are suffering from Incubi syndrome and don't have any grenades.

Yes, yes and more yes. That being said, banshees don't suffer too much as so long as they're only fighting opponents of I6 or less, they're striking simultaneously.

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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Mon Jun 03 2013, 22:39

I love the new book! it reminds me a lot of the DE book when it first came out acutely. my personal favorite winners in the books are the Swooping hawks( with grenade pack, better lasblasters, haywire grenades and perfect deepstrike they are fantastic) , scorpions( strength seven ap2 at IN6), wave serpents, and fire prisms. The banshees are kinda crap, but I can see a use for storm guardians in groups of 10 with two fusion guns for tank busting duty. (Really, it costs the same as a fire dragon squad, is scoring, and do you really need 5 fusion guns at BS4 to blow up a tank? Particularly if your wave serpent can get a twin linked bright lance for 5 points?)
I think they will make great battle brothers for the dark kin.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Tue Jun 04 2013, 00:11

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I love the new book! it reminds me a lot of the DE book when it first came out acutely. my personal favorite winners in the books are the Swooping hawks( with grenade pack, better lasblasters, haywire grenades and perfect deepstrike they are fantastic) , scorpions( strength seven ap2 at IN6), wave serpents, and fire prisms. The banshees are kinda crap, but I can see a use for storm guardians in groups of 10 with two fusion guns for tank busting duty. (Really, it costs the same as a fire dragon squad, is scoring, and do you really need 5 fusion guns at BS4 to blow up a tank? Particularly if your wave serpent can get a twin linked bright lance for 5 points?)
I think they will make great battle brothers for the dark kin.

Yes, yes you do. Sudden gusts of bad luck leave your Storm Guardians looking really stupid. You have to have stupendously bad luck not to hurt a tank with the Fire Dragons.

Really, if I'm getting that close to blow up enemy tanks, the answer is probably Wyches. There's no cover save against a haywire assault. Where Fusion Guns greatly outperforms Wyches is in melting the faces of Meganobz and their ilk... at which point, those five fusion guns look invaluable!

Not saying that definitely makes Fire Dragon better (very fragile) or Storm Guardians can't work (shame we can't add the Singing Spear Warlock for tank hunting), but there is definitely a reason to the Dragons and their unseemly amount of tank hunting weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Tue Jun 04 2013, 00:51

I see what you mean. But for your meganobz point, with bladestorm killing high toughness 2+ save guys isn't really a problem for elder. In fact with 2 fusion guns and 8 pistol shots the unit doesn't do THAT much worst than 5 fusion guns but the unit is slightly worst in both regards to the fire dragons. But then again they are troops not elite so that should be expected.
You can in fact put a singing spear warlock into the storm guardian unit for five points less than a exarch with firepike and fast shot.
Perhaps I overstated my case originally, but most forums have been talking about how the storm guardians are useless and I was trying to provide an alternative use as poor man's fire dragons. Still, two fusion guns and a singing spear isn't anything to shake a stick at. Very Happy

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm writing this assuming elder are the primary detachment and dark elder the secondary.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Tue Jun 04 2013, 01:14

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Cavash wrote:
I'm starting Eldar as a completely seperate army to my DE. All shades of Eldar are awesome!

I'm not much of a fan of allies, so this release has caused me to grab the codex, a bunch of new models and start painting my hornet coloured Craftworlders!

As far as the rules are concerned the only thing that I think I'd be disappointed about would be the fact that Banshees are suffering from Incubi syndrome and don't have any grenades.

Yes, yes and more yes. That being said, banshees don't suffer too much as so long as they're only fighting opponents of I6 or less, they're striking simultaneously.

Banshees wont be able to get into combat till most likely round 3 and they suffer from not having a assault vehicle unfortunately. I field incubi because i love them and they do get stuff done.

Can banshees or HQs have something like a phantasm grenade launcher? I dont see anything like that in codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Tue Jun 04 2013, 04:36

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@mikezealous wrote:
can Allied units use Codex DE webway portals to deploy out of reserves?

Sadly no.

Hey thanks man! I was brainstorming that for a few minutes
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PostSubject: Re: Is anyone else really disappointed in the new Eldar release?   Tue Jun 04 2013, 06:11

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I see what you mean. But for your meganobz point, with bladestorm killing high toughness 2+ save guys isn't really a problem for elder. In fact with 2 fusion guns and 8 pistol shots the unit doesn't do THAT much worst than 5 fusion guns but the unit is slightly worst in both regards to the fire dragons. But then again they are troops not elite so that should be expected.
You can in fact put a singing spear warlock into the storm guardian unit for five points less than a exarch with firepike and fast shot.
Perhaps I overstated my case originally, but most forums have been talking about how the storm guardians are useless and I was trying to provide an alternative use as poor man's fire dragons. Still, two fusion guns and a singing spear isn't anything to shake a stick at. Very Happy

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm writing this assuming elder are the primary detachment and dark elder the secondary.

That much worse in this case means an extra Meganob, which I would call a fairly significant outcome.

Still, yes, you've made a good call for them poor man's fire dragons - Storm Guardians will see some use in much this set up, just a simple special weapons delivery system. Their problem is Eldar simply have so much short ranged firepower; using Defenders for AI and Fire Dragons/Wraithguard for heavy armour seems a sensible, solid division of labour, which doesn't leave much space for Storm Guardians, stuck between two camps and set up as a close combat unit they're not really well suited to being.

But just because something is not the best does not mean it is not worthwhile.
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