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 Acothyst with scissorhand

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eldaraddict
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PostSubject: Acothyst with scissorhand   Thu Jun 23 2011, 23:28

So the acothyst has 2 4+ poison weapons and takes a scissorhand. He starts with 2 attacks base.

The rules say he may 'take one of the following' not 'replace a cc weapon' with the scissorhand. Scissorhand is a 3+ poison attack.

So does he get 2 attacks base, +1 for two close combat weapons, +1 for the scissorhand at 3+ poison? It never says the original 4+poison weapons were a special close combat weapon, so I think this is how to play it. Any ideas?

Or are the 4+ poison weapons automatically 'special close combat weapons' because they are poisoned? So does he have to choose between the two 4+ poisoned weapons (+1 attack for two close combat weapons) or the scissorhand at +1 attack?

It sounds like a better fit on the Haemonculi with a ccw, pistol and scissorhand because he gets +1 attack for two ccw, +1 for scissorhand all at 3+ poison?

It is tough when you can graft arms/weapons on the wracks or Haemies.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 01:20

I think he indeed get +4 (3+1) attacks with 3+ poison, since he have two x one handed weapons. Poison, PW - that doesn't matter. If he have two non-fist/hamer/etc. weapons that are NOT two handed (ergo one handed by default), then you get +1 attack (and only once, three weapons still grant +1).
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 01:57

BRB p42:
Poisoned weapons are special close combat weapons by definition, like powerfists. A special clarification in the codex entry is not needed. BRB standard rules aply, so no +2 bonus attacks for Acothysts.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 02:15

I'm not sure if this is 100% right. Don't know how did I miss poison=special bit tho.
Anyway I see it like that:
You get bonus attack for double poison weapons (requirement of 2 special CCW for +1A) and You get bonus from Scissorhand.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 04:44

Actually the scissorhand is a piece of wargear not a special CCW. So assuming your Acothyst is charging you would get
2 base
1 charging
1 double CCW
1 scissor hand
5 total (4 when not charging)

Now the real question is are they at poison 3 or poison 4?

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 05:21

IMHO all attacks should be made with one weapon. So if You pick Scissor (despite getting bonuses from worse weapon, this is EXACTLY the same situation like in CCW + PW, You do ALL attacks with either CCW/PW, never mix them), then You hit with it.
I hate when people confuse special weapons that grant additional attacks and freaking Servo Arm.
You get this S8 I1 PW attack just because Servo Arm * special rule * says so.
From other weapons You get * just * additional attacks, because * rulebook (and weapon) rule * says so.
There is no such thing as mixing attack anymore, with few clearly stated exceptions.

And Djin, Scissor etc. actually ARE weapons, not "wargear". Their * entry * says so... Fact that You don't replace default wargear with it is meaningless. This is exactly same thing like buying additional missiles to Voidraven. You just get another toy that may be used.

So just to be clear:
2 base
+1 from double special weapons (ie poison 4+)
+1 from Scissor
+1 on charge

[ok, changed smiles into orange asterixes. Still, IMHO even if it is in "arcane wargear", it's still weapon since you can attack with it and because of that it follows weapons rules. Servo Arm isn't it just "make" 1 attack.]


Last edited by Local_Ork on Sat Jun 25 2011, 08:22; edited 1 time in total
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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 06:25

Holy hell thats a lot of smilies, mind cutting them back a bit.

Scissor is wargear, its under the arcane war gear section on the codex. And take a look at the Haemie entry.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 11:40

Quoted from the Codex, page 61, "It is a poisoned weapon (3+)". Combining that with the FAQ that Poisoned Weapon is by default a special weapon, I'd say it's crystal clear that Scissor Hands is a Special Weapon. it's a closecombat special weapon that is wounds on a 3+ and gives +1 attack.
Meaning an acothyst with Scissorhands has two options.
Either
2 base attacks
1 assault
1 from scissorhands
Total of 4 in the assault, wounding at 3+

OR

2 base
1 from assault
1 from two of the same special weapons
total of 4 in the assault, wounding at 4+

The rules of the scissorhands states it can be combined with a CCW for an additional bonus attack, Poisoned Weapons are not CCW's though, they're Special Weapons. So one has the option of adding a stinger pistol (counts as CCW, the only CCW option in the Wracks entry) for a total of 5 Scissorhand attacks, or the normal 4 poisoned weapons attacks.

I don't know how well written this was, but in my opinion, there are no ambiguities left in the rules as they are written.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 11:46

As a sidenote, something that might be worth pointing out is that Wracks do not come with any CCW's from the start.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Fri Jun 24 2011, 21:15

1.: Stinger Pistol: "the acothyst may take _one_ of the following." (DE_C: p87)
so you may take a Stinger Pistol but not additionaly to a Scissorhand

2.: Scissorhand is wargear not weapon: "It is a poisoned weapon (3+), that grants +1 Attack" (DE_C: p61)
It is arcane wargear, but it's also a weapon. As a Shattershard or a Necrotoxin missle are weapons. And it is a special ccw, as all poisoned weapons are. In fact every ccw that confers special rules, bonuses or penalties is a special ccw by default.

3.: Additional attack: "they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" (BRB: p42)
There are only two ways to get an additional attack. Either you use two similar weapons, either normal or special ccw's, or you combine one special ccw with a normal ccw. (not for powerfist, thunder hammer or lightning claw, I know, but that's not important now) A Poisoned weapon (4+) is a special weapon and a Scissorhand is a special weapon.
And a single infantry model may never use more than two one handed weapons.

That leads us to:

Are Poisoned weapons (4+) and Scissorhands the same special ccw?
This is debatable. In my opinion they are not. While they are both poisoned weapons, the one is 4+, the other 3+; one grants +1Attack, the other not. So literaly they are as much not the same as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 08:42

@SinisterPlank wrote:
As a sidenote, something that might be worth pointing out is that Wracks do not come with any CCW's from the start.

They do? They have *two exactly the same special weapons* so they get +1 attack?
Unless You mean "normal" CCW


@Tiri Rana

I'm not sure if there is clearly stated that you just use only 2 weapons. Mind You Acolyst can have up to 3 one handed special weapons, 2 of which are identical (so if he can use 2+ weapons he get bonus attack...).

We certainly need to wait for FAQ clarification.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 09:34

Whenever I write CCW, I mean the wargear called "Close Combat Weapon" or fluffilly named wargears with the parenthesis (close combat weapon), or the clarification "count's as Close Combat Weapon".

And sience there sees to be an emphasis on that these are "Wargears" and not "Weapons", I'd like for you to take a look an random entry in the codex. Incubi, for example, the Klaive is listed under wargear. Scourges? Shardcarbine is listed under wargear, Warriors? splinterrifle? Wargear. Does this mean all my eldars are unarmed?

Sorry if that was alittle over-simplified, but perhaps it'll show you why your points on this are incorrect. There is no distinction between wargear and weapons. Weapons -are- wargear, and in every piece of wargear that's a weapon, the descripton clearly states so.

I do see the point about using three weapons on an acothyst, sience they have more arms.... but unless there's a special rule saying that it can use more than two weapons, or even more than one special weapon a time, it doesn't change anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 09:38

Also
Quote :
Are Poisoned weapons (4+) and Scissorhands the same special ccw?
This is debatable. In my opinion they are not. While they are both poisoned weapons, the one is 4+, the other 3+; one grants +1Attack, the other not. So literaly they are as much not the same as possible.

you're spot on here. One is a generic Poisoned Weapon (4+), the other, is Scissorhands. Different names, different rules and therefor, different weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 13:43

@Local_Ork wrote:

@Tiri Rana

I'm not sure if there is clearly stated that you just use only 2 weapons. Mind You Acolyst can have up to 3 one handed special weapons, 2 of which are identical (so if he can use 2+ weapons he get bonus attack...).

We certainly need to wait for FAQ clarification.

BRB p37:
+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded
weapons (typically a close combat weapon
and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack.
Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit – you only get one extra attack,
even if you have more than two weapons.



There are rules for every possible combination of ccw's. That would be:
One two-handed weapon: . Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (...), it may not use it together with another weapon.

Two normal close combat weapons: +1Attack

Two of the same special weapon: +1Attack with all special bonuses or penalties

A normal and a special weapon: +1Attack with all special bonuses or penalties

Two different special weapons: No bonus attack, and either one set of bonuses or penalties


So it is in fact explicitly stated that you may only combine two weapons max.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 14:11

Tiri Rana: I totally get You get +1 bonus only once per model, and I certainly know that "label". However it does only cover situation when You have pair of weapon, not three and more. Just to be clear how I think - IMHO this +1 attack apply even if You don't use 2x4+ poison combo.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jun 25 2011, 15:34

I think the sentence: 'Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit' does cover models with three or more weapons quite good.

If you have more than two weapons you can build pairs as described on page 42, these pairs may differ in different turns, if you have more than two weapons. But you may never use more than two weapons at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sun Jun 26 2011, 10:25

I find it amazing that GW apparently needs to FAQ this, considering the base argument here is that scissorhands isn't a weapon. to that, there's really only one thing to say to... if the item entry says it's a weapon, then it is in fact, a weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Wed Jun 29 2011, 07:31

It all ads up to an Acothyst never being able o upgrade with a weapon and also have +1A for having two weapons.

All because GW sucks at writing rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Sat Jul 02 2011, 19:34

I'm playing it as:

Acothyst has base two attacks, the scissorhand adds 1. So 3 attacks, 4 on the charge.

Haemonculus get +1 more for having that plain CCW to start with so 4 attacks and 5 on the charge.

Advocating that the Acothyst gets more is too tall of a claim and anything that takes more than a sentence to explain is just not worth it. I'm a pretty easy guy to play with, no need to muddy that up with that of an Acothyst attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Tue Jul 05 2011, 10:10

GW FAQ
Quote :
Q: When a model has multiple special close combat
weapons, do they only gain the effects of the one they
choose to use in each round of combat or do they gain the
effects of all of the special weapons that they have? (p56)
A: They will only gain the effect of the weapon they choose
to use. For example a Haemonculus has a huskblade and
an animus vitae. If he chooses to use his huskblade, he
will not be able to attempt to gain a pain token from his
animus vitae.

Replace the words "huskblade" with poison weapon (4+) and Animus Vitae with Scissorhands and you have the end of this debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Wed Jul 06 2011, 05:22

@SinisterPlank wrote:
GW FAQ
Quote :
Q: When a model has multiple special close combat
weapons, do they only gain the effects of the one they
choose to use in each round of combat or do they gain the
effects of all of the special weapons that they have? (p56)
A: They will only gain the effect of the weapon they choose
to use. For example a Haemonculus has a huskblade and
an animus vitae. If he chooses to use his huskblade, he
will not be able to attempt to gain a pain token from his
animus vitae.

Replace the words "huskblade" with poison weapon (4+) and Animus Vitae with Scissorhands and you have the end of this debate.

BRAVO!!! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Mon Oct 03 2011, 19:45

Okay, so this raises the following question. First, I will reference the GW 40k Rulebook FAQ:
Quote :

Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for
the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close
combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Does this mean that one can elect to count the the wracks' poisoned(4+) weapons as standard CCWs, since it would seem obvious that they are single-handed weapons? If this is the case, then it would seem that Acothysts armed with a scissorhand would get 5 attacks on the charge rather than 4 (since you could simply count his single-handed poisoned CCW as a single-handed non-special CCW for purposes of calculating number of attacks).
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Mon Oct 03 2011, 21:50

As a poisoned close combat weapon it is officially no longer a regular close combat weapon, but is a special weapon, and a special weapon can't give the bonus attack unless it's paired with a second, identical, special weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Mon Oct 03 2011, 22:41

This FAQ ruling is not about wich weapons are normal or not, just about wich are one handed and wich are not, if you look closely at page 42 in the BRB, you will recognize, that only one handed weapons can be combined to gain an aditional attack, so for example a model armed with a Klaive can never use any combination, be it a second Klaive, or a normal close combat weapon to gain an extra attack, even if the combination would normaly be eligible. (like power weapon + normal ccw)

You may never elect to count a wepon of one type as something else.
Poisoned weapons are always this, poisoned weapons; and as such may only be combined wich an equal weapon or a normal ccw to gain an extra attack.

P.S.:
Wich weapons are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules and give one additional attack, but are no close combat weapons?

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Mon Oct 03 2011, 23:57

What does work though is a scissorhand on an abberation
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